My review of Fallout 3

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by CT Phipps, Sep 27, 2016.

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  1. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Hey, nice to meet you @Ragemage.

    It's wonderful to talk with you after so much has been said about you. It's also about one of my favorite topics re: Fallout 3 and I agree it would be interesting to also discuss Shamus' opinion. Even so, I'm happy to bring up one of my favorite arguments which I've discussed several times. I call it, "Enclave Apologia Bullshit." :)

    Hehe. Just kidding, it's Enclave Apologia but I do feel that it's an attempt to reframe the argument of Fallout 3's plot in a manner which tries to make the actions of the Enclave more palatable in order to make it a more Gray and Gray Morality conflict. In fact, Colonel Autumn's actions simultaneously make perfect sense while also remaining entirely contemptible.

    Colonel Autumn wishes to use the Purifer as a tool to dominate the region and control the surrounding populace. Even though he doesn't want to annihilate the "mutant" population, I see no reason why they shouldn't be stopped with extreme prejudice. Historically, invading armies aren't welcomed with roses and smiles.

    The independence of the Capital Wasteland's communities are a perfectly valid and justifiable reason to wage war against the Enclave. As we see in Random Encounters with the Enclave, they're capable of massacring the survivors of Vault 101, setting up posts to arrest Wastelanders, and generally attempting to establish their dominance. The fact it doesn't require genocide leaves plenty of fascist brutality in the process. Even if not, they have no title to dominance over the local settlements and they have every right to resist.

    The United States is dead and even if it wasn't, they are not part of it.

    There's also the protection of a valuable resource which belongs to the people of Rivet City. James and Madison Li are the creators of Project: Purity, which is meant for the people of the Capital Wasteland rather than to help enforce the claims of the Enclave. Much like those slime in NCR attempting to seize Hoover Dam, Mister House and the Rivet City folk have every right to protect it from the hands of Raiders (high tech or otherwise) like the Enclave.

    Why does Autumn shoot you? Why not? What value are you to him? In the end, you are the son or daughter of a person who attempted to keep the Enclave from their goal of ransoming water and extorting it to the populace. Why did James fight so hard to keep the Enclave from his work? Because it's a group of conquerors who will use his dream to grow stronger.

    A loose end.

    Which is why you have to blow up Raven's Rock and Adam's Air Force Base. You can't let a single man, woman, or child escape.

    :)

    I roll my eyes and hate the idea of 10 out of 10 as a "perfect" score. It implies there's some kind of Platonic ideal game which is such bullshit. 10 out of 10 should represent a scale of 1 being a game you absolutely hated and 10 being a game which you absolutely loved. You don't start at 10 and then substract for flaws because you can have a flawless game which is less enjoyable than a flawed game which is utterly awesome.

    Portal is an utterly flawless game but it's not more enjoyable than Skyrim.
     
  2. Ragemage

    Ragemage Wept for Zion

    Feb 20, 2016
    Hi there.

    Okay, so what exactly are the Brotherhood then? Sure you can argue that they distribute the water at the end of the game freely and fairly but they're just as much an outside force as the Enclave are. Sure they were recruited at first to protect the project but the second James left they abandoned it immediately and screwed the whole pooch, leading the place to be flooded by Mutants. So what gives them the right to distribute the water? They basically do the same thing the Enclave was going to do, distribute the water and use it to gain popularity and thus gain more recruits from the population. As we see from Fallout 4, this was the plan all along from the higher-ups. Once they got the water going and after you unwittingly help them acquire tons of Enclave technology from Adams Airforce Base, they basically become a super army of sorts with lots of tech and new recruits and march on the Boston Commonwealth to literally do the exact same thing Colonel Autumn was planning to do in DC, take over the population and seize all technology "for the greater good". In essence, by not helping the Enclave or letting the Enclave get their way, you literally just turn the Brotherhood into the next Enclave. Almost poetic really if I thought Bethesda thought that far ahead.

    Well Hoover Dam doesn't belong to Mr. House either. He didn't build it and he's not the one who got it operational again, that was the NCR. So I feel the NCR has the right to Hoover Dam until someone tries to take it from them, they earned it. Just because he's from the pre-war doesn't give him the right. That would be like if I said Cabot House should own all of the Boston Commonwealth because they've been around longer than anyone else.

    Well this just leads me to my other point. Why can't you simply join the Enclave? You might be a loose end for Autumn but by this point in the game he should also know what a super soldier you can be, as Eden sees you. So if Eden can see you're someone who can be manipulated and convinced to help the Enclave's goals, why doesn't Autumn? Especially when Autumn is clearly intelligent and not some random grunt who happened to get a high ranking position. You're a very powerful soldier who may or may not be very influental in the DC area by then and it never crosses his mind to turn you into a propaganda tool against the Brotherhood?

    Once again, the game has so many different areas where it seems like, originally, you SHOULD have been able to join them. For example, the whole reason we're joining the Brotherhood and running through all these hoops, based off the game's dialogue, isn't because we give a shit about the wasteland's populus or the purifier, we want revenge for our dead daddy. But at the same time we could also tell people that we hated our father and hope he's burning in Hell. Quite the dichotomy in dialogue there, especially when our father is the main reason we're (forced) to set out on this big main quest anyway. There's also the fact that in the Adams Air Force base you have the option to NOT blow up the Enclave base and instead blow up the Citadel. Why the Hell would you do that this late in the game, especially after killing most of the Enclave there anyway? It doesn't make any sense besides it being a "LAWL RANDOM EBUL" option. On the other hand, if you were actually siding with the Enclave as it seems was originally intended, then the option to blow up the Citadel makes a ton of sense. You give the water purifier to the Enclave and then blow up their main opposition, the Enclave wins and becomes the new Brotherhood, so to speak.
     
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  3. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    Why?
     
  4. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Because small men with guns often have big dreams of ruling over those who actually build nations.
     
  5. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    To build a nation you need manpower and resources. These independent settlements have no resources, and a much better form of manpower is robotpower which the Enclave has. So... why again?
     
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  6. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    The Enclave is ideologically committed to the conquest or destruction of the Wastelanders so they can rebuild the United States of America. The establishment of a settlement in the former United States capital is a victory for them as a organization and would provide their extremely dubious claim to the Presidency legitimacy. With the Purifier, they can also grow food and use water as commodities to building an agrarian commodity to conquer the Wasteland beyond the CW.

    As for robot-power, slaves reproduce naturally.

    In simpler terms, martial societies need enemies to justify their existence.
     
  7. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    I don't think you know how the purifier works. It purifies water yes, but not soil and hence has no major effect on farming. Not to forget, the most expedient location to farm is on the river banks, which is one of the most dangerous areas of the map. Also, water as a commodity only works if there's a real demand, which there isn't. Everyone is doing fine without it, thank you very much.
     
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  8. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Actually, we see the Mirelurks dying from lack of radiation and realistically the only reason the water should be irradiated is due to someone having stuck a big bunch of radioactive material inside it. So, once that's gone, erosion should take care of any problems on the riverbank.

    As for water, Megaton has a problem with its water purifier and why it needs to be fixed. A clean abundant source of water would allow settling new locations without infrastructure built-in to handle it.

    The contaminated water may well explain also why the CW is so uninhabited 200 years later.
     
  9. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    I'm talking about Super Mutants and raiders.
    So? The people aren't suffering, they're all well off.
    Yet it doesn't explain why people still exist.
     
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  10. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Which you also take care of.

    ....What?

    People can usually get water to survive but not prosper if they have a source of contaminated water.
     
  11. Ragemage

    Ragemage Wept for Zion

    Feb 20, 2016
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  12. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    I will say Broken Steel was one of the most singularly satisfying DLC of all time simply for the raw sense of awesome in wiping the Enclave out, hopefully forever, single-handedly.

    The Enclave are perfect villains for D.C. as the embodiment of the worst of the USA.
     
  13. Ragemage

    Ragemage Wept for Zion

    Feb 20, 2016
    That.. has nothing do with my post. And if you think Broken Steel is the best DLC, you haven't play any of New Vegas's. ;P

    I'll also point out that, once again, in FO3, the Enclave really isn't any worse than the Brotherhood. Sure they can be brutish (such as with Vault 101) but this isn't seen often enough to make us think the entirety of the Enclave is like that. They're a bit "meaner" but that doesn't mean much, considering your actions in FO3 turn the Brotherhood into the Neo-Enclave in 4. All the Enclave (under Autumn) want to do is deliver the water and become heroes, the same as the Brotherhood ends up doing. So by completing Broken Steel you think you've destroyed the Enclave but really just made another. Good job "hero".
     
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  14. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Good? No, it's a patch on the second shittiest video game ending of all time. It's also a fix to allow playing after the game's ending and a single really good open-world shooting map.

    It's got nothing on Old World Blues or Honest Hearts.

    But satisfying? Oh yes.

    Oh yes, the Brotherhood of Steel is a bunch of imperialist assholes.

    http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-morality-ambiguity-of-brotherhood.html

    I also felt Fallout 3 had a really fucking warped morality given you massacre the entirety of the Enclave at Raven's Rock, presumably including noncombatants and children. The exact same thing happens in Fallout 4 with the "best" ending involving you turning an entire city into homeless refugees who will almost suffer massive deaths from hunger, exposure, and Super Mutants.

    Oh yes, it makes the end of Fallout 3 all the more poignant that Arthur Maxson warps the dream of the BoS and perverts it. As for the Enclave, I'd have more sympathy if not for the fact your argument amounts to, "We wanted to give water to the people but only if WE give it so we're going to kill you for yours."

    :)
     
  15. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    Except that's literally the exact same justification for the "good guys" in the story as well. Your father literally kills himself because he has a temper tantrum that'd he'd have to work with the Enclave and share his work instead of being the No. 1 man on the job. The Brotherhood likewise keep a tight grip on the purifier, taking it from Autumn despite him having the same goal of activating the purifier and supplying water to the wastes under the Enclaves protection/jurisdiction and if you choose to inject the virus into the purifier at the end, literally doing a worse job of what Autumn's Enclave wanted to do. They're the ones who now control the water supply and the "fame" of being the ones doling it out. The only difference is bethesda tells us the Brotherhood are the good guys and doesn't give us any option to say otherwise.
     
  16. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    James made the correct choice in order to preserve the Capital Wasteland's sovereignty from the hands of the Enclave. The water on the Purifier's side would allow the Enclave to grow and become a power again, which had to be stopped if you don't want them to rule the region.

    And yes, the BoS end up becoming the thing James fought and died against. It renders his sacrifice pointless and arguably means the Lone Wanderer's struggle was pointless.

    The march of history is a bitch.
     
  17. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    Ah yes, the sovereignty of the two medium size towns and multiple small shanty settlements of about a dozen people. God forbid that awful civilization come knocking at their door. Bingo Bango Bongo right?
    Yes, instead the Brotherhood got the water and did the exact same thing the Autumn's Enclave was going to do. Much better outcome that the Enclave with much more resources and infrastructure than the cut off East Coast Brotherhood don't get it. The East Coast Brotherhood is the Citadel, the Enclave had Raven Rock, Adam's Airforce base and multiple outposts around the Wasteland. They had far more stability, far better technology, more men and better training than the Brotherhood and weren't as fractured between the outcasts and the "good guy" Brotherhood.
    It was inevitable unless the Brotherhood was just supposed to do everything for free out of the kindness of their little pure hearts because that's VERY realistic. The Wasteland staying a bunch of stagnant isolated city (if you can even call them that) states while the Brotherhood held onto an extremely precious resource and didn't demand anything for it or try to exert their influence using their monopoly on it is a pipe dream.
    More like bethesda's lackluster writing is a bitch.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2016
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  18. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Honestly, extermination is preferable to the Enclave. Better dead than [insert zinger]. Then again, I actively work against NCR *AND* Caesar's Legion *AND* House to preserve Mojave sovereignty.

    The Enclave would have been able to spread much faster and much farther than the Brotherhood, which is another good reason why they should be kept from it. Arguably, Fallout 4's ending means that the "Destroy the BOS" ending of Broken Steel is the "good" ending.

    Madison Li, unlike James, understood the BOS were as dangerous as the Enclave. Which is just how it rolls.

    Sadly, Rivet City couldn't defeat both.
     
  19. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    I think you're confusing "sovereignty" with "anarchy".
    What? How? Why is it a bad thing that civilization would be able to spread much farther, faster and stronger? Are you just against Civilization itself? The wasteland fucking sucks for the average person with raiders and super mutants constantly murdering and raping the countryside, shit water supply, no unity or governmental structure outside of their tiny little shitholes. No Enclave or Brotherhood means humanity stays in it's dark little near extinction period either until someone else comes along with enough clout to form a real civilization or they die out.
    No, it's the worst ending because you've just destroyed the last hope for civilization in the Wasteland. No Brotherhood=No one to run water caravans across the Capital Wasteland. No one to run and protect the purifier itself. The "lol im teh evulz xD" ending of Broken PlotSteel basically just negates all of your work throughout the main quest. Again, are you just some kind of edgy anarchist?
    And yet she ends up with the Institute who kidnaps people and experiments on them because "lol teh science!".
     
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  20. Ragemage

    Ragemage Wept for Zion

    Feb 20, 2016
    I wouldn't call it satisfying at all considering I really didn't even have a big beef with the Enclave. I wanted to join them. But no, the DLC, instead of giving us a choice, forces us to side with the BOS anyway even though we can randomly blow up their Citadel afterwards. It's basically like how in FO4, Nuka World lets you become a Raider Leader, but even though you can literally turn all the settlements in the game into Raider shacks, you still have to join the Minutemen in the end to get an actual ending (Preston Garvey will hate your guts and open fire on you, but then he'll magically start calling you General again even after you wipe out the Minutemen, because they're the failsafe, it's stupidity and not planning ahead at its finest, you have to have a way to finish the game so they force you to go with the Minutemen even if you kill the BOS, Institute, and Railroad with your new Raider buddies). They were too lazy to make a 3 slide Raider ending for the new DLC.


    Honestly I wouldn't call it a warped reality at all, I would call it lazy writing. The only true noncombatant we see is a random engineer schmuck who we can tell to get out of there with his robots. There's no children in the Enclave base (however there are children in the Citadel, which you CAN blow up strangely enough) And Fallout 4's endings involve all that? I'm not entirely sure where you got that idea considering Fallout 4's endings are literally 3 slides copied and pasted together with minor dialogue changes depending on the faction you went with, and the post-game involves nothing more than Diamond City getting 1 or 2 new NPCs in it and some flags representing your choice. Everywhere in the Boston Commonwealth is a refuge of homelessness, hunger, exposure, and Super Mutants, because literally every settlement is 5 feet from a Raider base or Super Mutant hovel. This isn't poignant writing or some sort of "warped reality" as if this is Twilight Zone levels of creativity, it's lazy game design cramming everything so close together that nothing feels realistic.


    See, the thing about that is Arthur Maxson doesn't warp the BOS at all, he just turns it into what it was in FO1 and FO2. (albiet a poorly written version they're still the best written faction in FO4 mostly because they barely had to write any of the lore themselves and took most of it from past games) I'll also remind you that, as Vergil said, the Brotherhood of Steel does the same thing the Enclave does, including killing people:



    Those Megaton settlers pretty much had lead pipes and pea shooters and yet the BOS slaughtered them mercilessly just because the people wanted the water sooner.
     
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