NASA plans return to the moon by 2020

Because sitting here, waiting for our extinction is preferable to expanding into space?

Not to mention the technological advances that were a result of the Space Race. It was hardly a waste of money, even if one discounts the fact that it is a benefit to mankind as a whole.
 
To me, this is definitely not a waste, there's new advanced equipment to test since the first trial, and this is a great way to do it.

Think about how many millions of years it took humans too evolve, are evolution into the far reaches space isn't going to happen over the course of 100-200 years, it'll likely be thousands. Slow progress, isn't no progress, it is still progress.

I think a lot of why people are disappointed, is because they expect to see a man on something like Mars, while they are alive. When in fact, it may be when there kids are alive, or their kids-kids.
 
Fireblade said:
First Croatian Astronaut by 2020! Scientists cite 'giant slingshot research' as main focus of space race push...
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:rofl:

Now I hope this next landing has them building some sort of semi-permanent facility. I'd also like to see them eventually drill into the moon to see if there are any water deposits.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
There already *are* Croatian astronauts. Hell, *I* am a Croatian astronaut. *Weed* astronaut! Surf up, dude!

But seriously, this is a waste of money. It would be better spent on deep economic and industrial restructuring and development of alternative energy sources. A probe drilling for water on Moon will matter little when there are millions of people starving on Earth.
 
I agree with Ratty, errr Gr'zat? on this one. We should fix our problems on Earth before we start chasing our dreams in space.
 
So postpone all further development and economic "waste" on space programs until all problems on our own little dirtball are solved? Might as well just say you never want to see further advancement into space.

People will starve, governments will be repressive, people will reproduce with abandon, rainforests will be slashed and burned, non-renewable fuel resources will be depleted, and you think by shifting money from various space programs will solve these problems? You think these problems can be completely solved? You think you can rip corruption and ignorance from the hearts of men?

Military expenditure on this planet exceeds the money spent on space ventures by an incredible amount. There is an establishment which could survive budget cuts easily. Yet, you persist in calling space exploration and exploitation (quite a loaded word there) a "waste?"

And again, you ignore spin-off applications. NASA research and development into advance composites, ceramics, alloys, remote medical analysis equipment, computer programs, and an entire host of other things have justified the program alone. Brakes are better, helicopters are lighter, life rafts safer, aircraft engines are better, pacemakers more adaptable, and burns better diagnosed. That's an extremely short list of various spin-off technologies.

As long as we sit on this planet, we are only counting the days until our extinction. One way or another, that will happen. However, if humanity is able to colonize other worlds, and especially create self-sufficient colonies; we may see that chance towards perfection, or at least maintain that hope. Which will be rather hard to accomplish when the species no longer exists.

Of course, if people are too complacent to take that first step that will open up the universe, they deserve what awaits them. We are able to take that first step, failure to do so is insane. Of course, the majority of people throughout history would rather stare at their toes than gaze at the stars.
 
Kotario said:
So postpone all further development and economic "waste" on space programs until all problems on our own little dirtball are solved? Might as well just say you never want to see further advancement into space.
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Agreed. After all, the world in the late 60's was far from perfect, too. Social injustice or economic inequity is a pretty pathetic reason to postpone research.

We waste money on a lot of stupid shit in the US, but the space program is well worth it, imo.
 
Mankind squanders most of it's time and resources on useless activities such as war, crime, meaningless hoarding of wealth, unnecessary legal disputes, marketing (ugh), useless religious dogma and various other forms of fucking each other over and than you say that space research is a "waste"? Nigga, please!


BTW, props to Kotario.
 
DirtyDreamDesigner said:
Mankind squanders most of it's time and resources on useless activities such as war, crime, meaningless hoarding of wealth, unnecessary legal disputes, marketing (ugh), useless religious dogma and various other forms of fucking each other over and than you say that space research is a "waste"? Nigga, please!


BTW, props to Kotario.
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Key note, I never said the shit we spend our money on now is a better choice :-). Poverty will always exist agreed. And the amount we put towards military expenditure is a waste too. By all means, if we're taking the money from there, go ahead and shoot anything you want into space. Space is certainly a better approach than those are. But what about renewable fuel sources? We're not going to be finding new planets to exploit in the next 10-15 years, and yet that'll just be another big expenditure ofthose existing sources.
 
Kotario said:
So postpone all further development and economic "waste" on space programs until all problems on our own little dirtball are solved? Might as well just say you never want to see further advancement into space.
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When you are sitting in a room with a timed bomb, you commit yourself to disarming the timed bomb. You don't sit around wondering how you might improve bomb disarmament techniques in the future.

People will starve, governments will be repressive, people will reproduce with abandon, rainforests will be slashed and burned, non-renewable fuel resources will be depleted, and you think by shifting money from various space programs will solve these problems? You think these problems can be completely solved? You think you can rip corruption and ignorance from the hearts of men?
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The problems you named will be pale and insignificant compared to what will befall us within the next 10 years, when oil production decreases to 40-60% of humanity's projected needs, oil prices climb to more than $200 a barrel, worldwide economic collapse occurs and a famine unlike any world has ever seen begins claiming its victims. It won't an economic crisis - it will be an extinction. To squander precious resources on some crazy space exploration pipe dream is an insanity. How long will it be before we can establish a self-sufficient colony on another planet? Fifty, sixty years? Great, I'm sure those hundred million humans who are still alive by then will appreciate it.

Military expenditure on this planet exceeds the money spent on space ventures by an incredible amount. There is an establishment which could survive budget cuts easily. Yet, you persist in calling space exploration and exploitation (quite a loaded word there) a "waste?"
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I'm not happy with excessive spending in the military sector either. For example, funds dispensed to fuel the invasion and occupation of Iraq would have been sufficient to outfit every car in America with an environmentally and energetically acceptable engine. But who would be crazy enough to commit a political suicide by undertaking a venture that would not only represent an aggressive attack on beloved American way of life, but also an aggressive attack on oil corporations' profits - and we know who funds election campaigns. But that's another issue for another discussion.

And again, you ignore spin-off applications. NASA research and development into advance composites, ceramics, alloys, remote medical analysis equipment, computer programs, and an entire host of other things have justified the program alone. Brakes are better, helicopters are lighter, life rafts safer, aircraft engines are better, pacemakers more adaptable, and burns better diagnosed. That's an extremely short list of various spin-off technologies.
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According to that logic, we should also increase investments in military projects, because the entire space exploration program is a spin-off application of military technologies developed by Nazis and further improved by Americans and Soviets. Would it not be more reasonable to invest *directly* into applications that might - oh, I don't know - *avert the looming and perhaps-already-inevitable collapse of our civilization*?

As long as we sit on this planet, we are only counting the days until our extinction. One way or another, that will happen. However, if humanity is able to colonize other worlds, and especially create self-sufficient colonies; we may see that chance towards perfection, or at least maintain that hope. Which will be rather hard to accomplish when the species no longer exists.
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That kind of reasoning would be applicable if it wasn't for the indisputable fact that said extinction will be in full swing long before space colonization becomes even remotely possible.
 
Whereas the money spent on the space program might be better used on more important projects on earth, in the end its a question of where tax dollars go.

As Kotario pointed out, a lot of better technologies were spun off from the exploration of space. It's also fairly common for the state to subsidize new industries and technologies where initial risks and costs are high.

Your tax dollars at work? Perhaps they might be better spent somewhere else, but without the support of the state many industries would not have gotten off the ground.

Would those dollars be better spent finding an alternative fuel? Perhaps. But you are talking about a perfect world in which social problems are resolved by like-minded people. But in this world, business and politics mix, so one might ask who's getting paid off in this new moon venture- who stands to reap the benefits?
 
Care to make a bet? In fifteen years, if human civilization has collapsed, I'll give you everything I own. Otherwise, you owe me everything of yours. Historically, the people claiming to see the downfall of civilization in the near future (for many reasons, some of them even scientific) have been proven wrong.

Marx also foresaw extreme conditions in mankind’s future, and Communism as the ultimate result of such conditions. Yet, as it worked out, the situation moderated itself and Marx's proposed future never came to be.

Civilization will not collapse because oil becomes expensive. There exists significant amounts of research being done in alternative energy sources currently, without dismantling space programs to further fund them. Do you simply like being a doomsayer, that is the only way I can fathom such predictions. People will turn to cheaper alternatives as the price climbs, and the oil companies with intelligent long term plans are working hard on alternate energy sources (after all, they want to continue their existence). I doubt it will be a perfect switch, but neither do I see the complete collapse of human civilization.

Ratty, I've never had previous cause to believe you insane.
 
Mmmm now maybe this is a ridiculous idea on my part... but could it not be possible to work both on alternate energy sources AND space travel at the same time? That way... everyone's happy? :wink:
 
I guess we could, if only a certain richest country in the world would stop starting useless wars and tell the oil lobby to go fuck themselves...
 
Kotario said:
Care to make a bet? In fifteen years, if human civilization has collapsed, I'll give you everything I own. Otherwise, you owe me everything of yours. Historically, the people claiming to see the downfall of civilization in the near future (for many reasons, some of them even scientific) have been proven wrong.
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We *could* make such bet, but I don't presently own much, so it wouldn't be very lucrative for you. On the other hand, if civilization *does* collapse, everything you own will probably fall into hands of looters, so you won't have much to offer me but the shirt upon your back. Oh, and perhaps some hentai.

Marx also foresaw extreme conditions in mankind’s future, and Communism as the ultimate result of such conditions. Yet, as it worked out, the situation moderated itself and Marx's proposed future never came to be.
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The fact that experts of the past were wrong doesn't mean experts of the present are wrong too. Experts of the present are familiar with Hubbert's curve - a bell-shaped curve down which humanity has already begun to slide. Even today oil prices are higher than ordinary folk can handle - imagine what they will be like in, say, five years' time. Unfortunately, there still don't exist viable alternatives for oil in most - if not all - applications, so it is naive to expect we can discover *and* implement new technologies in such a short amount of time. We can expect to have running fusion power plants by 2020 at best, long after the most disasterous effects of oil shortage crisis have begun to manifest themselves.

Yes, oil depletion is without doubt the biggest challenge humanity has ever faced, and even if it doesn't lead to destruction of our civilization and perhaps even extinction of our race, it will undeniably result in a devastating crisis on all levels, one it will take decades to recover from.

Civilization will not collapse because oil becomes expensive. Do you simply like being a doomsayer, that is the only way I can fathom such predictions. People will turn to cheaper alternatives as the price climbs, and the oil companies with intelligent long term plans are working hard on alternate energy sources (after all, they want to continue their existence). I doubt it will be a perfect switch, but neither do I see the complete collapse of human civilization.
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As I stated above, there aren't any viable alternatives, nor will there be any in foreseeable future. Solar, geothermal and hydroenergy can replace only a small percentage of humanity's present energy needs, uranium is already in short supply, uranium breeding technology has been abandoned due to unfeasibility, while deriving oil from coal is an overly expensive and dirty process. That rules out pretty much all concievable alternatives and leaves us with little reason for optimism. Oil companies have no immediate incentive to invest into alternative technologies, since they are presently reporting record oil profits, and will continue to do so for many more years. If we started radically reforming global economy and infrastructure *now*, we would have a chance to postpone the imminent collapse - thereby buying us some time to develop more permanent alternatives - and cushion its effects once it *does* occur - thereby ensuring survival of our civilization. However, by wasting resources on space travel and armaments, we are only accelerating the inevitable.
 
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