Neo Nazis in Fallout

  • Thread starter Thread starter Arin Matthews
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Vault City and the Legion wasn't enough? (also the other many xenophobic groups) Plenty of fascism in the wastes already.

I agree. They were fascists. Plus, you got commies as enemies (and for back story), which is more rare in games, so it's more unique.

And hey, just visit Tenpenny's tower! If you talk with the locals there, I'm pretty sure you can catch some* racism in their wording about ghouls. :razz:

*a lot
 
For this very reason. People make small things into something huge. They take offence waaaayyy to easily.

Again it would probably remain a divergence but i went specifically on this forum despite the langage barrier because people here tend to discuss in great lenghts about many Fallout subjects, contrary to other forum in which discussions don't last.

About the offense, i got it mainly for the shutting up thing. (and no backing up, which i think i did)

Lol sorry I didn't mean for anyone to take offence.
 
Speaking of "Neo" Nazis, I once had an idea of a misinformed humanitarian group (something akin to Followers, but a bit more primitive) which is, unbeknownst to them, glorifying Nazi symbols and/or Hitler, or some other ideology which caused deaths of millions.
Simply put, they got it a bit wrong from half-burnt history books, thought that Hitler was a nice guy (like, Germany prospering before WWII, being a very famous person, respected throughout the country...sections about Holocaust missing etc.) and they're looking creating a utopia akin to his.

I know it is far fetched, and probably overly controversial to actually apply in any game, but the idea always brought a...certain smile to my face.
 
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Speaking of "Neo" Nazis, I once had an idea of a misinformed humanitarian group (something akin to Followers, but a bit more primitive) which is, unbeknownst to them, glorifying Nazi symbols and/or Hitler, or some other ideology which caused deaths of millions.
Simply put, they got it a bit wrong from half-burnt history books, thought that Hitler was a nice guy (like, Germany prospering before WWII, being a very famous person, respected throughout the country...sections about Holocaust missing etc.) and they're looking creating a utopia akin to his.

I know it is far fetched, and probably overly controversial to actually apply in any game, but the idea always brought a...certain smile to my face.

That actually sounds... awesome. It would be a great laugh. Like when you first walk up to their little hideout, a guy at the front with a Luger by his side greets you with a Sieg Heil and Hitler mustache. Then as you think "What the fuck" and your trigger itch comes back as your ready to kill all of these people, you are wondering why these Nazis haven't attacked your Black/Asian/Latino character yet. So you decide to see what the hell is going on here.

You walk in to discover that the fact is, these people aren't really armed outside a few posted guards, and you walk further into their place to see that there are people of all colors being given medical treatment and food. So you walk up to the leader of the place, and he gives you the whole run down.

The fact was, was that they discovered the culture through these books, and wanted to help people like this "Great Man" did in the 30's (the books history cuts off around January 1939, and the rest of the other books that detail World War II or the Final Solution to the Jews have had those parts burnt, torn out, or are just to scruffy to read).

So the game gives you a choice:

1) Tell these people that the man they were "worshiping" was actually one of, if not thee most horrible man in history. While at first the leader won't believe you, by passing a speech check or bringing him a book oh Hitler with none of the contents missing (preferably Hitlers own auto-biography), they saddenly take down all of their Nazi material. However, this wasn't the end of it. The people were so demoralized and disheartened, that not only did they take down their Nazi material, but they sold the medical equipment and other useful equipment, and stopped helping people period, only to roam the wasteland as a nomadic band of scavengers.

Or;

2) You lie to them, and tell them that Hitler was indeed a "great" man and that you knew and read about all of his endeavors. Knowing someone is out that that appreciates what they are doing (besides their own patients and the people they help), they are given renewed moral and vigor, and go on to become a prosperous community known for helping all those who come to them. However they continue with their hanging of Nazi material and propaganda (as most of the uneducated people of the wastes have no idea who this man was anyways), their leader takes on the name "Fuhrer" (but at heart knows not what this name truly meant or represented), and the Nazi symbol(s) such as the swastika become known as a great defender of humanity to the rest of (that area of) the wastes.

So basically:
1) People remember the bad person Hitler was, however the community that was helping so many people would die out from demoralization.
2) The community would grow to prosper and help the wastes, and pre-war Nazi culture would be viewed by normal wastelanders as a once great and beautiful culture, that stands for all of humanity.
 
^

You pretty much nailed it, my friend. That was pretty much the exact idea I had in mind.
And I'm glad someone agrees it would be a fine concept.

Also, kudos for making the outcome of that hypothetical group and quests revolving around them very "fallouty". I can imagine the epilogue screens and Ron Perlman narrating about the greatness of Nazi movement, and what a blessing it is upon the wastes.


One minor "problem" with the whole thing is how our protagonist, the player, would know about Hitler and Nazi crimes. Seeing as Courier knew very little of communism, I don't see a reason why majority of average wastelanders would know of Nazism either. Which brings us to either our protagonist being a Vault citizen, or coming from a place with a solid education.
But that's a different topic entirely...
 
Just to add to their confusion, they might have read of the original, religious meaning of the swastika (it represented something like "the good" in some ancient religion, I don't remember which; Hitler, as he considered his own prejudices to be "the good", took this symbol) and thought "well, this was a religious, altruist man, worth following".
 
Problem is that this can easily be confused as nazi propaganda in game-form. Holocaust denial and all that.
 
Problem is that this can easily be confused as nazi propaganda in game-form. Holocaust denial and all that.

You do have a point. Although, you could make it extra clear it is not, in some way.
Another way to exploit a similar game idea would be to take one of the several Nazi-like factions, and do the same, put someone to actually misunderstand the thing and do good things based on it.
 
On the subject of racism, isn't mencioned that exist some racism with super mutants and nightkin, ghouls with glowing ones? With this is possible to create some nazis factions inside these groups. Like a extremist group of normal ghouls that is harassing the glowing ones and this is creating conflicts inside the ghoul city.
 
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On the subject of racism, isn't mencioned that exist some racism with super mutants and nightkin, ghouls with glowing ones? With this is possible to create some nazis factions inside these groups. Like a extremist group of normal ghouls that is harassing the glowing ones and this is creating conflicts inside the ghoul city.

I don't recall seeing any mention of racism between super mutants. And seriously, it doesn't make any sense to me. For a start nightkin and super mutants are the same race, the only difference is that all nightkin are smart ones (or at least that's what I expect, as they were the elite troops), specially trained and used stealthboys most of the time. The difference in looks is related to the latter.

As for ghouls, I don't know anything about racism, actually, I know there was a conflict when they lived in Necropolis, but it could be just that the glowing ones didn't want to follow Set, period, not a matter of racism between normal ghouls and glowing ghouls.
 
There was group indeed that didn't want to follow Set, but is the sewer group. The glowing ones are isolated in the Vault and if I recall correctly the glowing one that is locked in the jail says that the normal ones don't like them.
 
There are groups that are opposed to each other, whatever the kind of Ghoul/muties they are, so i won't mention them, but there are definitally some internal racism, albeit not necessary hostility toward some special kinds.

The second generation of super-mutants, those who mutated after the fall of The Master/The Lieutenant/The Vats, who didn't change in the appropriate way, and didn't benefited from the teachings of the Master and the Unity, are often considered as inferior, not worthy of the super-mutant kind. Those are also considered as more dumber than the others, (at least by Tabitha) but it is not necessarly true, as we can see in Fo2 with Melchior, who is able to keep his magical power and organize the rebellion agains't the Enclave, or Frank Horrigan who remain active within the ranks of the Enclave, even after many experiments.

There are also quite a lot of standard ghouls that consider themselves better than Feral Ghouls, saying that those have no brain. There is one in Point Lookout that accept cash to organize safari/huntings, in which normies/smoothskins are able to kill feral ghoul without feeling guilty. (on an unrelated not, there are some non-hostiles feral ghoul, in Fo3, which implie that the hostility of the others is not a given)

It is not mass genocide as for Enclave, but there is definitally a rank between species and subspecies, at least how some individuals see it.

At the opposite, bright brotherhood manage to gather feral, civilized, and glowing ones, a treat everyone as equals. (but only ghouls)
And Marcus tried to do the same in the black mountain before Tabitha and the second generation chose to expell the others.

I use civilized for non-feral, but the word seems not the most appropriate.
 
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The second generation of super-mutants, those who mutated after the fall of The Master/The Lieutenant/The Vats, who didn't change in the appropriate way, and didn't benefited from the teachings of the Master and the Unity, are often considered as inferior, not worthy of the super-mutant kind. Those are also considered as more dumber than the others, (at least by Tabitha) but it is not necessarly true, as we can see in Fo2 with Melchior, who is able to keep his magical power and organize the rebellion agains't the Enclave, or Frank Horrigan who remain active within the ranks of the Enclave, even after many experiments.
I'm aware of those, but I consider it to be a matter of elitism for having belonged to the Master army rather than a race issue.

There are also quite a lot of standard ghouls that consider themselves better than Feral Ghouls, saying that those have no brain. There is one in Point Lookout that accept cash to organize safari/huntings, in which normies/smoothskins are able to kill feral ghoul without feeling guilty. (on an unrelated not, there are some non-hostiles feral ghoul, in Fo3, which implie that the hostility of the others is not a given)
I haven't seen the non-hostile feral ghouls, how do you find them?
 
The way I see it as, each generation of Super Mutants gets stupider and stupider. What are we on now, the third generation?

The first generation were intelligent enough to speak full sentences and think like a normal human being. Perhaps this was because the Master had (somewhat) qualified scientists reviewing the research of the pre-war FEV scientists, and he had scientists controlling the dipping and experimentation.

By second generation, most of the Children of the Cathedral either blew up in the Cathedral or were probably hunted down, or just simply left. The second generation probably had to rely on less equipment, less table FEV strains (since the Mariposa base was blown up), and only a few willing scientists left from the Children of the Cathedral. So the mutants they made were slightly less smart, albiet still able to talk in full sentences (like MeanSonOfABitch and Fawkes. You could tell they weren't as intelligent as humans, but they still could think for themselves, and obvious intelligent enough to use computers since Fawkes used his computer to research the vault he was trapped in and outside world.

The the Third Generation had absolutely no scientists, no extra equipment, or anything of the such the Master used. It was just Super Mutants randomly dipping kidnapped wastelanders. Without running tests, observations, without anything. They just dipped wastelanders in the FEV and hoped for the best. Thus, this made them extremely stupid. Some of them aren't even able to talk in full sentences, and just yell out short phrases. Some of them forget how to even do basic functions like go to the restroom, or forget to sleep.

Heres a video on it

 
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Problem is that this can easily be confused as nazi propaganda in game-form. Holocaust denial and all that.


Exactly. That's why I said it would be highly unlikely to see something like that implemented.
Even if it were hypothetically made in the game, there's no way to make it plot critical - since I imagine many countries would have the game censored or outright banned, making a Nazi segment essential to game's plot would be very unlikely. And since it wouldn't be important, just another "filler" quest/faction, no developer would bother making something like that, just to cause problems for themselves and a nightmare for PR.

I mean, remember the Megaton/Fat Boy controversy when Fallout 3 was released? The game hit the shelves in Japan several months later or so, and had content cut. There was also criticism from some other countries, I believe.

Now imagine what controversy and, simply put, rage, would be caused by adding a benevolent "Nazi" faction in the game.
 
Oppen >>

You're probably right about 2nd generation super-mutants, but they are indeed considered as a kind of its own. You not need to be from another race to suffer from racism. You just need that the racist think you are from a different race. More on this later.
Before the phone ringed, I intended to write about nightkin as i see more their superiority complex as a consequence of their overuse of stealth boys.

They were considered as the elite soldiers of a being all true super-mutants considered as a god. So they were chosen by a god.
They performed tasks that others super-mutants didn't. Being invisible, they were aware of things other super-mutants weren't. (they were hidden amongs human for decades when regular super-mutants only stayed with other super-mutants)
When the unity collapsed and their kind was hunted, they refused to accept the change and mix with "civilians", as nightkin became their identity.
Then they suffered schyzophrenia, replaced their master by an invisible being that guided them and knew what was right for them (anthler, Rhonda, wathever). They also allowed them to keep using stealthboy.
Of course, this new being was themselves who told them what they want to hear instead of what they should hear.
The regular mutants would tell them to adapt, to change, in order to survive and coexist. If it would be for their benefit in the long run, it would be so much pain for them to change and accept to move on, from the unity and their (very) old habits. It would be like the Master dying again. It was also a great pain for them to refuse to use stealthboy anymore, as they develloped an addiction to it.
So not only they prefer listening to their own invisible voice (as it also is much more convincing, being themselve) but they use the superiority complex as an excuse to disregard regular super-mutants, to consider them wrong and feel legitimate by refusing the change. It help them to shut down the tiniest doubt that they would have about being possibly wrong themselve. So i see that superiority complex more as a defence mechanism to justify their behavior than a real racism. But a tiny doubt remain, as the pain of the addiction...

Then again, for the second generation super-mutants, the one who consider them as the most inferior is... a nightkin... who use her superiority complex, as an excuse to refuse the change, to refuse the reasonable super-mutants. So, it negate her radio speech about 2nd generation of super-mutants being inferior. Except Tabitha, no super-mutant seems to criticize those second generations super-mutants.

On an unrelated note, this storyline is incredible.
I agree that super-mutants have a lesser role in FoNV, but they got their best storyline since Fo1. (and Marcus/Broken Hills)
They were super-mutants in FOT, FOBOS, FO3, but they were just militaries. Now they were written as human, with a complex mind and a complex history, that reflect in their personnalities, and how they deal with their own conflicted feelings. More on this please ! ! !

About non-hostiles feral ghouls that i remember :
- The cult in springval (need Broken Steel) that gather regular ghouls, radiated normal humans, ferals ghouls and feral glowing ones.
- In Red Racer Factory, there is a feral glowing one named Stefan that would become hostile only if you kill the human scientist near him. (but the scientist is hostile)
- The feral Ghouls in Repconn cease to be hostile and leave the planet if you help Bright.
- I am not certain, but if you help Roy Philips to get to the Tempenny Tower, all ghouls move to the tower, not just the three that are not feral.

------

Bigboss >>

I had saw the video. It is a nice concept but i think those videos lack of real intel. But it is in line with the narrator POV who isn't supposed to know everything as the master remains a shadow figure, which is true. Beside the vault dweller and a few children of Cathedral, no normies has ever seen the master.

Also, i won't deal about East Coast super-mutants (Fawkers, Leo etc...) as they come from a different kind of FEV. Not only different, but spread on a different way. It is told ingame.

About the intelligence of west coast super-mutants, it is stated ingame that the more intelligent one come from people that were the least exposed to the outside world. The Master think that it is related by the fact those people are least contaminated by the (regular) radiation. His second-in-command, the Lieutenant, think that there is a leak of FEV in the air. That leak is not enough to change people into super-mutant, but give them a semi-immunity, that prevent the individual to become a real (translate as intelligent) super-mutant, when dipped into the vat. Whatever who is right, they both agree that the most successfull super-mutants are those the least exposed to the outside vault. So people from vaults are the more likely to remain intelligent after being dipped into the vats. That's why the Master and his Lieutenants torture the vault dweller to know where is vault 13. That's why Lily Bowen was captured from her vault and dipped into the vats (and remained intelligent). That's why Frank Horrigan remained intelligent, as the Enclave kept themselves away from the outside world and radiation. That's also why even during Fallout 1, when the master was still alive, they were more dumb super-mutants than intelligent super-mutants. It is far easier to capture traders from caravans (what they did during decades, while keeping a low profile) that getting access to a vault, and being able to enter them. Luckily for the master, there are other people that left their vault on their own and were captured by the master army, or just stumbled accross mariposa on random. (as the first perfect super-mutant that the master met) Now i you check the background of all super-mutant characters (except east coast) each that are known to come from a vault or an enclave-like area remained intelligents. Other have an unknown background. That's it. No matter when you became super-mutant, the only relevant aspect is who you are. Were you born in the wasteland, or were you born in a vault or another radiation free, and self-sufficiant area ?

The nightkin were chosen amongs intelligent super-mutant, because their tasks were more subtle. They were supposed to spy human and gather valuable informations about potential next target, a mission that can't be done by a dumb one. But not every intelligent super-mutant became spies/nightkin, as other were needed in their bases of operations (L.A Vault, Mariposa etc...) to coordinates the troops, analyze new informations, or operates any machine that the master's army could use. Zaius, Neill, Marcus or the Lieutenant are good exemple of non nightkin intelligent super-mutants. It's only after many years of overuse of stealthboy that their skin changed color and that they became schyzophreniac.
 
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The way I see it as, each generation of Super Mutants gets stupider and stupider. What are we on now, the third generation?
There isn't as much as third generation. East coast super mutants are a whole different thing.

The first generation were intelligent enough to speak full sentences and think like a normal human being. Perhaps this was because the Master had (somewhat) qualified scientists reviewing the research of the pre-war FEV scientists, and he had scientists controlling the dipping and experimentation.
Nothing to do with it, really (or maybe something, but not much). I'll explain later.

By second generation, most of the Children of the Cathedral either blew up in the Cathedral or were probably hunted down, or just simply left. The second generation probably had to rely on less equipment, less table FEV strains (since the Mariposa base was blown up), and only a few willing scientists left from the Children of the Cathedral. So the mutants they made were slightly less smart, albiet still able to talk in full sentences (like MeanSonOfABitch and Fawkes. You could tell they weren't as intelligent as humans, but they still could think for themselves, and obvious intelligent enough to use computers since Fawkes used his computer to research the vault he was trapped in and outside world.
Second generation has nothing to do with the Master or the CoC, aside from being originated in the Mariposa Base and from the same strain as first generation. They are dumb just because they were all long time wastelanders. The Master explains how intelligence on super mutants depends on how radiated the subject was when he was a normal human. Wastelanders have a bigger tendency to result in dumb mutants than people coming from vaults, which The Master tried to select. Second generation was originated by accident. They were just random slaves the Enclave took from the wasteland to mine the virus. They later turned into mutants thanks to the contact with the virus, and revolted. Mean Sonofabitch, AFAIK, is part of the first generation. Fawkes is Capital Wasteland, nothing to do with the others.

The the Third Generation had absolutely no scientists, no extra equipment, or anything of the such the Master used. It was just Super Mutants randomly dipping kidnapped wastelanders. Without running tests, observations, without anything. They just dipped wastelanders in the FEV and hoped for the best. Thus, this made them extremely stupid. Some of them aren't even able to talk in full sentences, and just yell out short phrases. Some of them forget how to even do basic functions like go to the restroom, or forget to sleep.
What you call third generation is not third generation, is the only generation in the Capital Wasteland, if we are call them any generation, then they are the first, as they are being done from before The Master had even born, and at least the original ones of them were actually the ones in the most controlled environment of them all, with real scientists since the beginning, being a vault specifically designed for such experiments. They are stupid because A) it's a different strain and B) Bethesda just needed orcs.

Exactly. That's why I said it would be highly unlikely to see something like that implemented.
Even if it were hypothetically made in the game, there's no way to make it plot critical - since I imagine many countries would have the game censored or outright banned, making a Nazi segment essential to game's plot would be very unlikely. And since it wouldn't be important, just another "filler" quest/faction, no developer would bother making something like that, just to cause problems for themselves and a nightmare for PR.

I mean, remember the Megaton/Fat Boy controversy when Fallout 3 was released? The game hit the shelves in Japan several months later or so, and had content cut. There was also criticism from some other countries, I believe.

Now imagine what controversy and, simply put, rage, would be caused by adding a benevolent "Nazi" faction in the game.

Maybe there could be a mod, though.

On having Megaton/Fat Boy cut, the joke's on us. If Beth developers had made any sense, that wouldn't have appeared in the first place.
 
Well, yeah, mods are always an option, but it would be cool to see it in an actual game.
It was a good idea, anyway.
 
@naossano
First, I want to clarify that I didn't intend to ignore your post, it didn't show up before (I say this because I just noticed you answered me before my post regarding BigBoss' post).
Now, put this way, I can't do anything else than tell you you convinced me. I mean, I already knew racism doesn't require to actually have different races (in fact, it's still to be prooved that several human races exist, I'm inclined to think otherwise). But yeah, it seems to be some kind of racism inside the groups. On another note, I share the request for more NV-like treatment of the super mutants subject. Fallout 2 was a first approach on this, too, but it didn't go too deep into it (I mean, you saw mutants having a civilian life in Broken Hills, but there wasn't a lot of character development for them).
 
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