New Vegas Vs. New Reno

[SiriusShenanigans]

You don't like the quest, just say so. Nothing wrong with that. I'd respect your opinion more if you just admitted it.

I just consulted my sister who knows nothing about fallout to see if she could guess what the White Glove's big twist was. All I told her was that they had a restaurant and they were very fancy. Immediately, her first guess was "They eat people." Its just not well done. Its long hanging fruit and its presentation betrays itself. Beyond the Beef is the type of quest that needs its twist to be entertaining, otherwise its just a series of over drawn out steps. It doesn't have anything clever or smart, and I don't like fallout that isn't smart. There are times Fallout New Vegas tells a good story, but this isn't one of them. Their presentation is heavy handed and its chekhovs gun is too obvious. A quest is more than being about having options. You can have all the options in the world but it doesn't matter if it isn't interesting.

It's like I said; New Vegas deals with the entire region and even DLC locations are affected by it simply existing. New Reno only deals with a handful of other settlements, again, like I said. In no way does Reno affect the entire northern region of California.

What places does Reno touch? NCR, Redding, The Den, Vault City, the Raider/Merc caves and Broken Hills. Did I miss any? Heck, Broken Hills only has a fetch quest that sends you there and that you can get glasses for you-know-who from the you-know-what.

So, the locations I mentioned are not even half the locations in the game. Contrast this to New Vegas which every town in Nevada mention at some point.

Really? I find that while towns might mention New Vegas, they often have little to show in ways of being influenced by it. There are no plot lines that lead you to New Vegas gangs. You don't know anything about chairmen or omertas or white gloves, kings or anybody from New Vegas until you get there. The radio will tell you things about it, but there just isn't a story being told about the locations through their interconnections. The stories of Jet (Mordinos), the vault city raiders (bishops), and the encroaching Enclave (Salvatores) is something that guides you to and through New Reno. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a hook outside of New Vegas that draws you to the omertas, or the kings, or the white glove society.

Also, considering that there are like 12-ish locations in all of fallout 2, that is still like half the map.


Also, the heckling in New Reno could kick the crap out of the heckling in New Vegas. The New Vegas prostitutes have nothing on New Reno prostitutes!

I would also like to point out that you don't need to do a single quest in new reno to decide which family wins. This essentially makes all of New Reno an unmarked quest to decide who wins. They have a metric for each families power, and each man you kill and each quest you do affects their ranks. In terms of nonlinear gameplay, it makes it so you have even more options for deciding the fate of the town.

 

[Pwener]

I just consulted my sister who knows nothing about fallout to see if she could guess what the White Glove's big twist was. All I told her was that they had a restaurant and they were very fancy. Immediately, her first guess was "They eat people." Its just not well done. Its long hanging fruit and its presentation betrays itself. Beyond the Beef is the type of quest that needs its twist to be entertaining, otherwise its just a series of over drawn out steps. It doesn't have anything clever or smart, and I don't like fallout that isn't smart. There are times Fallout New Vegas tells a good story, but this isn't one of them. Their presentation is heavy handed and its chekhovs gun is too obvious. A quest is more than being about having options. You can have all the options in the world but it doesn't matter if it isn't interesting.

You do know that their past and current problem is no secret, right? You keep talking about a "revelation" of sorts but it's never a secret. Even Caesar just goes out and tells you what's going on when he sends you to deal with them.

Really? I find that while towns might mention New Vegas, they often have little to show in ways of being influenced by it. There are no plot lines that lead you to New Vegas gangs. You don't know anything about chairmen or omertas or white gloves, kings or anybody from New Vegas until you get there. The radio will tell you things about it, but there just isn't a story being told about the locations through their interconnections. The stories of Jet (Mordinos), the vault city raiders (bishops), and the encroaching Enclave (Salvatores) is something that guides you to and through New Reno. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a hook outside of New Vegas that draws you to the omertas, or the kings, or the white glove society.

Again, have you played this game? The game is called NEW VEGAS and literally every major settlement and quest has a connection to it. I'll give you an example; Carla Boone was sold into slavery because she didn't "fit in" with the rest of Novac based on the opinion of the crazy proprietor. Carla didn't "fit in" because she liked living in Vegas - likely as a showgirl.

And that's just one example. You're crazy.

Also, considering that there are like 12-ish locations in all of fallout 2, that is still like half the map.

Locations unrelated to Reno: Arroyo, Gecko, Ghost Farm, Klamath, Military Base, Modoc, Navarro, Oil Rig, San Francisco, Toxic Caves (meh), Vault 13, Vault 15.

That's 12. 11 if you don't want to count the Toxic Caves.

Locations related to Reno: Broken Hills, The Den, Golgotha, NCR, Raider Caves, Redding, Sierra Army Depot, Stables, Vault City.

9 in total. See my point now?

I didn't count Enclave locations because outside of supplying Salvatore with laser pistols, New Reno isn't acknowledged by the Enclave except for a dialog choice with President Richardson.

Also, the heckling in New Reno could kick the crap out of the heckling in New Vegas. The New Vegas prostitutes have nothing on New Reno prostitutes!

Oh yes, let us not forget the 4th-wall-breaking-sluts who spout gems such as; "New Reno was designed by Chris Avellone and Tom French. Both of them are sexual GODS."

I would also like to point out that you don't need to do a single quest in new reno to decide which family wins. This essentially makes all of New Reno an unmarked quest to decide who wins. They have a metric for each families power, and each man you kill and each quest you do affects their ranks. In terms of nonlinear gameplay, it makes it so you have even more options for deciding the fate of the town.

Really? Didn't know this. Interesting. I'll make sure to kill all families the next time I play the game just to make sure.

 

[FDO]

Don't mind if I don't debate. My take on Beyond the beef is that the big secret isn't supposed to be one.
It's that simple. What's the point then? How you end up dealing with the quest I would say.
How did you even get it in the first place. The first time, I did it before any politic factor about them come to my attention, and what was the most interesting to me was if I should eventually kill Gunderson and his son. Ultimatly, I decided to wack them, they are completly unreasonable, you just can't reason with such people.

Else, let me say that this thread sort of ask a wrong question. Reno and Vegas are completly different cities. No, the casino/sin city theme doesn't matter much.

First, of course Vegas is a lot more than the strip. It include all the outer Vegas: Westside, Eastside, North square, the Fiends territory and Freeside.
Second, keep in mind that the strip 'families' are next to nothing outside of their casinos. Would mr House let them obviously try to expand? He keep them all on a very short leash as they are nothing more than glorified business managers and potential foot soldiers to defend the strip. Without him they would barely know how to dress to look like they aren't backward tribals.
They aren't that dumb and it's why their secrets plots require digging within their own walls.

On reno, I don't buy much in the tension. When do you actually see a gang clash/war, even bad words between henchmen? Endings slides don't mean much to me, they are just another story like the one about Salvatores killing Mordinos that Jules or his twin can tell if we ask questions.
It's like if you never saw anything happening between Killian and Gizmo, Neal and the skulz, the Blades and the Regulators, ect, and that instead you only had some ending slides telling you this or that happened.
Families's business outside of Reno are better represented, ironically.

Anyway, wrote more than I wanted and am half suffocating from sickness, afraid to wake up totally suffocating if I try to sleep long so if you would excuse me.

 

[Pwener]

Anyway, wrote more than I wanted and am half suffocating from sickness, afraid to wake up totally suffocating if I try to sleep long so if you would excuse me.

RIP

 

[Walpknut]

New Reno has more Side Activities and funny Moments, While new Vegas has a more cohesive tone and storyline.

Altho I enjoyed boinking Bishop's Wife (The duaghter is a gross Junkie), killing Big Jesus Mordino by giving him a Nuka Cola and helping the Wright find their son's murderer/Killing him by have one the kids accidentaly shoot them, becoming Arnold Swollenmember at night, Piston the Prize Fighter by day have to be my favorite sidequests.

But, Chasing Benny to the Tops and all the different ways you can deal with him, even killing him in his sleep after fucking with him if you are a woman, The Omertas' scheme, helping Joanna escape Gomorrah with her love, the conversations with Mr House, Finding Acts for the Tops, and even the Horror Thirller that is Uncovering the WHite Glove Society's secret or PARTAKE in it, and fucking Sarah Weintraub just to get a snowglobe are easily my favorite story moments in the series. And that's separating Inner New vegas from Freeside. If we add Freeside then we have the storyline with the Kings and how you can broker peace with the NCR or turn the hostilities into a turf war, help the Followers, getting the 3 new hookers for the Wrangler (Please Assume the position) and with the Uncut mod installed, Rotface little but reactive quest, easily the best area in the series.

 

[NMLevesque]

Nobody in vegas is trying to take over vegas.

Except Benny, Omertas, NCR who have an embassy there, and the Legion...

I guess my problem with the strip gangs is that even when you have their "Deep dark secrets" they are kind of predictable. White Hand eating people was my guess before I knew what the white hand was, simply from radio talk about a fancy dinner.

So you're not a big fan of foreshadowing? Like, finding out about the whole Jet connection across the map. That was bad or...?

I find the different gangs play a different role in the city and they make for an interesting war scenario. What are the quests you find most interesting in Vegas? I'd be curious to here about them. I'd love to hear what you think the best highlights are.

"Without knowing anything about them, I guessed their schtick"
You previously told us that you heard it foreshadowed on the radio. Commit to a position please.

"Beyond the Beef is just a boring quest though...I do remember having fun with trying to replace the food with substitute meat and stealing the outfit to sneak in is nice..."
I take it you didn't actually mean *just* a boring quest then?

Also, you keep referencing Chekhov's gun, but that's not actually what it is...you might want to look it up.

 

[SiriusShenanigans]

It absolutely is a chekhov's gun. Its an inconspicuous detail that you bring attention to because you intend to use it later. Thats exactly what they do with mentioning the ultraluxe's restaurant. They don't mention that they are cannibals, but because they mention the restarant at all means that there is something strange going on with it. Like restarants generally don't play a big role in video games, particularly in Fallout, as a point of player interest. And something strange is absolutely going on with them. So yeah, its a chekhov's gun.

I am actually a big fan of foreshadowing, but Beyond the Beef is not using foreshadowing well. Its hamfisted and it is just too conspicuous to work out. With fallout 2, they aren't trying to hide away some big secret, they are setting up a trail of destruction caused by jet. The foreshadowing in places like the den and redding help tell bits of the grander story of jet, and so it works out. All the white glove society has is a radio broadcast that is really suspicious.

And yes, I mean without knowing anything beyond the radio broadcast, I can guess the twist. I consider that a bad thing. Its a bad twist, and I will still say that its a boring quest. It can have lots of options, but the story at the core of it betrays any of the good design with its mechanics.

 

[Walpknut]

Foreshadowing and chekov's guns are considered goof things in writing. And them being canibals is not the twist, that's the beauty of it, the world is written in such a fashion that their fame as canibals is constantly made fun of by the other factions.

The point of the quest is to decide the future of their efforts and it has a lot of different outcomes, it's one of the more complex and compeling questd in the game.

 

[SiriusShenanigans]

Foreshadowing and Chekov's gun are not good or bad inherently, its a matter of how they are used. Beyond the Beef is hamfisted. I don't see it as being all that great for outcomes either. Either you stop them or you don't, and you decide whether to use force or not. That's generally standard in fallout. Even for roleplaying, you'd have to be playing very specific sorts of characters to really decide "Yeah, I'm gonna be a cannibal for no benefit to me at all." On top of that, the white glove society has no impact on any group in the entire wasteland. They are a small cult that just happens to own a casino on mr.house's lawn. I don't believe I've ever heard of any group outside of the strip even talk about the white glove society. The outcome at the end is trivial because they don't matter. I'd say they are a side quest, but they are technically part of the main story, so really they are just filler. The white glove society never says anything interesting to change your opinion of them, they have no interesting philosophies, or remarkable dialogue, they don't have any effect beyond the strip. You don't even get to eat anybody interesting out of it. If their being cannibals isn't supposed to be a twist, then that almost makes it worse because it makes you out to be the one who's just being sent to take out the trash. Its a good quest for like...skyrim maybe, but not for fallout.

 

[FDO]

On top of that, the white glove society has no impact on any group in the entire wasteland. They are a small cult that just happens to own a casino on mr.house's lawn.

There is always the legion who can point you to their quest, as 'Caesar' would like them to go back to the old ways, the time of his conquest that is. But I don't think you are entirely wrong, personaly. It's just that you nailed it yourself, the white glove, and the other strip's families, aren't supposed to be major factions like the Reno families. They don't even get a mention in ending slides, as far as I can tell.
Where you are wrong, from my perspective, is where you think it is a bad thing. The game is fairly explanatory as to how they are nothing else but middle management and puppets, and why. A setting also benefit from this kind of minor groups. Why should they be Reno's families mirrors? I think it would have been too much of a 'Vegas is F2 Reno 2.0 version'.
And it's not. Like I said, they were designed differently and the sin city theme is just a tiny common point, barely more than a appearance.

As for the quest, I don't fully disagree except that unlike you, I don't give much of a damn about the white glove and their nutritional disagreements, I am directed to it by accident, via Walter Phebus, then Gunderson, and that's the angle I play from. If it's not to your liking either, well it's the beauty of roleplaying games. You can just walk away and leave it at that. I don't do things because they show up in a list of quests but that's just me.

 

[Walpknut]

Foreshadowing and Chekov's gun are not good or bad inherently, its a matter of how they are used. Beyond the Beef is hamfisted. I don't see it as being all that great for outcomes either. Either you stop them or you don't, and you decide whether to use force or not. That's generally standard in fallout. Even for roleplaying, you'd have to be playing very specific sorts of characters to really decide "Yeah, I'm gonna be a cannibal for no benefit to me at all." On top of that, the white glove society has no impact on any group in the entire wasteland. They are a small cult that just happens to own a casino on mr.house's lawn. I don't believe I've ever heard of any group outside of the strip even talk about the white glove society. The outcome at the end is trivial because they don't matter. I'd say they are a side quest, but they are technically part of the main story, so really they are just filler. The white glove society never says anything interesting to change your opinion of them, they have no interesting philosophies, or remarkable dialogue, they don't have any effect beyond the strip. You don't even get to eat anybody interesting out of it. If their being cannibals isn't supposed to be a twist, then that almost makes it worse because it makes you out to be the one who's just being sent to take out the trash. Its a good quest for like...skyrim maybe, but not for fallout.

Outcome 1: You stop Mortimer's scheme which can happen in a number of ways:
a. You replace the food with fake human flesh.
b. Drugging the wine.
c. Killing them all.
d. Convince the chef to leave, then tell on them to Tedd Gunnerson who takes revenge on them.

Suboutcome: You can just sabotage it and not bother with outing Mortime, you will find him later on complaining about you ruining his big event where he would return the Society to it's canibalitic roots.

Outcome 2: You partake in Mortimer's scheme in a number of ways:
a. You just kill Gunnarson's kid and eat him then you frame Gunnarson for the kid's death.
b. You spare the kid and instead get some other guy in the north of vegas.
c. You spare the kid and instead put one of your followers in the Chopping block to be eaten.

This quest also intersects with Pheeble's will.

Depending on how you go about tackling the quest you will hear on the radio about Gunnarson affecting food deliveries to the strip, and if you are Legion it's implies they will help the Omertas (who are already on their side) to bomb the Embassy and take over the Strip while the soldiers are busy with the Dam.

If you don't know the philosophies of the White Glove society then that just tells me you haven't engaged in dialogue with them or barely read it. There is a divide between Mortimer and Marjorie on how they want to lead the society, hell you say nobody mentions them but a lot of people do mention them, and you even see cave paintings in Khan territory where it shows the Khans and the Whie Gloves were enemies before House took over.

 

[naossano]

Most of the enjoyable parts of New Vegas downtown are things already done by New Reno.

 

[Atomkilla]

Most of the enjoyable parts of New Vegas downtown are things already done by New Reno.

Not sure I can agree, to be honest.
Beyond the Beef, anything House-related, Benny and his guys, Omerta conspiracy...these are all stuff FNV brought to the table, and they are some of the best things in the franchise as a whole.

Though some of those "big" things aside, yeah, New Reno already did it.

 

[naossano]

Benny, House and Yes Man related stuff are part of the main guest, and less downtown exclusive.

The quest with the cannibal family was great, but the Omertas were underwhelming and there is barely anything to do with the chairmans, once Benny is out of the picture.

I really loved Freeside and the general atmosphere of this area, but it was also very reminiscent of New Reno and the Den. (except for the Kings)

 

[Atomkilla]

You might have a point there, honestly, it's been a while since I've visited New Vegas.

 

[NMLevesque]

Its an inconspicuous detail that you bring attention to because you intend to use it later.

First, it's a dramatic principle against creating unused elements that are suggestive of being part of the upcoming narrative. This is an example of foreshadowing because it actually pays off.

Also, you argued that it was an obvious detail, not an inconspicuous one. It is hinted at repeatedly. The radio guys entire program is basically just generic banter and hints until you actual complete a quest. That makes it part of a pattern of worldbuilding. Mentioning that a fancy restaurant exists is not the introduction to an element to reincorporate anymore than any other bit of dialogue that hints at something that exists in that world. If we allowed this to be one, then basically everything would be one.

 

[LuciusCorneliusSulla]

Vegas is just underwhelming. I feel like it's a fifth of its intended size and even that is split up so much.

Reno definitely felt more complete and had considerably more flavour and atmosphere. I guess a good way to put it is that vegas isn't a place to visit twice, the game is far more interesting outside of the strip. Where as Reno is one of the most interesting parts of Fallout 2.

 

[Brad M]

I remember when my friend told me there was a "Fallout: New Vegas" coming out, shaking my head thinking of all the missed opportunity. In reality I probably just wanted to revisit some nostalgia