No DLC for FFXIII

[Ausdoerrt]

I dunno, I found them to be a fairly standard anime setup - nothing new but well fleshed-out. I found their relationships and personalities to be well-done and entertaining (except Irvine who the writers seem to have forgotten to write anything about). Certainly lots better than the annoying crowd from FF7 (where everyone save for Tifa and maybe Sephiroth possesses a completely flat personality, is downright annoying, or both).

 

[rcorporon]

I dunno, I found them to be a fairly standard anime setup - nothing new but well fleshed-out. I found their relationships and personalities to be well-done and entertaining (except Irvine who the writers seem to have forgotten to write anything about). Certainly lots better than the annoying crowd from FF7 (where everyone save for Tifa and maybe Sephiroth possesses a completely flat personality, is downright annoying, or both).

We'll have to disagree here. I liked all of the characters in FF VII, and found them to be all fairly interesting. Barret was quite cool (and possibly the only black man in the entire FF universe not including the one in FFXIII).

 

[Ausdoerrt]

You mean Barrett, the stereotypical angry black man that makes Square look racist?

But ahh, opinions.

TBH it's not even the reason I dislike FF7; it looks so horrible that it almost makes my eyes bleed.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

I liked the characters from both games but I'd say that I got more attached to FF8's than FF7's when I played through them for the first time.

Ummm, no? You can junction certain types of magic and use the ones that aren't junctioned? Or cast the magic you draw directly from the enemy? In the end, using a magic card or two in the battle isn't going to have an abyssmal effect on your stats. And well, it's a sci-fi game that isn't magic-heavy.

The more powerful the magic, the greater the effect on your stats and the more rare it is (making replenshing it in battle unlikely). This means that you can somewhat freely use the best of your worst magic. It's still a royal pain in the ass and adds an extra layer of time wasting to grinding. It would have been significantly better (in terms of time wasting) if you simply drew all of the magic of the enemy when you drew from it so that you didn't have to waste so god damn much time drawing (probably triples the legnths of battles on average, at best).

But I like junctioning cause it's one of the few FF systems that made your stats relevant, and actually gave you a reasonable amount of freedom in customizing your characters.

The concept is good, it's the implementation that sucks.

You mean Barrett, the stereotypical angry black man that makes Square look racist?

Ah yes, nothing like having your first character speak ebonics. Really the racial stereotype thing has been overblown with him, other than being on the angry side of things and speaking in ebonics he was not a stereotypical black guy (he was an ecoterrorist with a white daughter for fucks sake). All in all, there have been many games with much worse and complete black stereotypes.

TBH it's not even the reason I dislike FF7; it looks so horrible that it almost makes my eyes bleed.

Now, sure, but back then I thought it looked mediocre outside of battle and great in battle (the backgrounds are very nice and the cinematics were great for the time) but it certainly hasn't aged well.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

waste so god damn much time drawing

Well, all gameplay in all FF games is based on grinding, so whichever type of grinding it is doesn't matter as much. At least it's not as fucking boring as, say, FF2's system.

Now, sure, but back then I thought it looked mediocre outside of battle and great in battle (the backgrounds are very nice and the cinematics were great for the time) but it certainly hasn't aged well.

I guess I have made the mistake of playing FFVIII before trying VII. You really just can't go back.

Really the racial stereotype thing has been overblown with him

Sure is, but it's a perfect example of how a less-that-thoughtful translation can ruin the experience for some. TBH I don't give a damn, but find it funny. For me "stereotypical" is a much worse offense than "racist".

The concept is good, it's the implementation that sucks.

Sure, could use some work. But now because everyone complains so goddamn much instead of giving constructive criticism, Square will NEVER try to improve upon that system, just like it probably never will with FFXII's (although I found it to be an interesting concept). Instead they bring back an archaic system in FFXIII that makes me chuckle at how simple and aged it is.

But I agree, it's not perfect, and I've seen other games do similar things with a more successful outcome. That is exactly why I want to see MORE junction system in games not LESS, because it could be fucking kickass if done right. It's like having an RPG without having to pre-cast buffs before every single battle.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Well, all gameplay in all FF games is based on grinding, so whichever type of grinding it is doesn't matter as much. At least it's not as fucking boring as, say, FF2's system.

Drawing was particularly egregious though, certainly worse than Blue Magic and up there with Gau's leaping.

I guess I have made the mistake of playing FFVIII before trying VII. You really just can't go back.

Yeah well it's understandable, the 3D graphics outside of battle are pretty atrocious.

Sure is, but it's a perfect example of how a less-that-thoughtful translation can ruin the experience for some. TBH I don't give a damn, but find it funny. For me "stereotypical" is a much worse offense than "racist".

Yeah, I thought that it was hiliarious as well, which was the intent I think, but the complaint is fair.

Sure, could use some work. But now because everyone complains so goddamn much instead of giving constructive criticism, Square will NEVER try to improve upon that system, just like it probably never will with FFXII's (although I found it to be an interesting concept). Instead they bring back an archaic system in FFXIII that makes me chuckle at how simple and aged it is.

But I agree, it's not perfect, and I've seen other games do similar things with a more successful outcome. That is exactly why I want to see MORE junction system in games not LESS, because it could be fucking kickass if done right. It's like having an RPG without having to pre-cast buffs before every single battle.

Yeah, we'll see. Drawing was really the biggest problem with FFVIII and not a hard one to fix. I think that a junction system that incorperated something like materia or multiple espers could be interesting but I really think that they need to have real character diversity like in 1, 2, 4, 9 (ideal amount), and, to a lesser extent, 6 (magic was universal, skills were specific, which could also work fine). FFXII had many problems, the license grid was too small and made every character end up identical. It really just felt like it took the sphere grid, made it smaller, then put it on a much less restrictive board which ended up with every character being identical (with minor stat differences). The gameplay also bothered me as the gameplay was basically moving the characters around with the rare command input, especially after the beginning of the game.

Unfortunately FFXIII took the page of minimalizing player input from FFXII and shoved it into a system which could be cool, but seems like it could be even better. I really hate that JRPGs have ignored team attacks from Chrono Trigger and if anything would make help to make a game look more like advent children, it would be that. I think that ATB also gets in the way of that goal as it puts in waiting between command options where as a system with a time setup like FFX's (which is really just ATB set to wait with no time taken to fill the bars between commands). Part of what I like about FFX's system was that the turn list helped the player use more strategy, as time became another factor for command decisions. I also believe that I read that FFXIII cut down the number of commands that could be done at a time from what was shown in the original video, probably either to simplify the system or for balance.

Anyway, what I was getting at was that I agree that there are a lot of interesting avenues that Square (and other JRPG developers) could take but haven't, especially when it comes to building on old systems. I do give Square points for mixing up the magic/skill system by removing MP and making everything cost AP (time). Granted, the time cost is simplified compared to many TRPGs but mixing up the skill/magic system is always a good thing in my mind, even if it doesn't work out.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Well, removing MP is nothing new. If anything, d20 doesn't have any MP. The no-MP system has ups and downs, and I personally don't have a preference for either.

As for the timing system, it's too simplified on the one hand, and too annoying on the other - you basically spam Haste of whatever and then keep using your strongest attack over and over. I felt that the best timing system Square ever pulled up was FFT, with magic-casting taking time a'la GF summons in FFVIII.

Thus far the best JRPG system I've seen, that also shows that the square-like TB system isn't necessarily too bad, while also having quite a bit of complexity to the setup is Eien no Aselia 2 (well, Japan-only release, PC-only game with H-content. Although, the first part is being fan-translated and has a non-H version, but I can't speak for it personally). The game basically employs standard 3-man teams, but instead of ATB, it uses a step-by-step timing a'la Magic, with Attack, Defend, Support, counter-spell etc. "timings" during which characters assigned to different roles can use the skill you select before battle. Plus, every character has unique skills/abilities that also change/grow depending on where you take the story. If only it allowed a bit more "open", not-so-linear combat missions and not be so obviously limited in budget, it could well be the "perfect" JRPG for me. You can take a glimpse at the awesome art, and a bit at the combat system here: http://vndb.org/v26

Alternatively, Disciples II utulized a similar battle system. However, due to characters having stats that matter, and an interesting level-up system (AND, not the least because it was tied to strategizing and gathering resources on the main map), it never felt quite as boring as Square's take at it.