North Korea and the Bomb

welsh

Junkmaster
Looks like North Korea has definitely got the Bomb. We suspected it for awhile of course, but looks like those little commie devils have decided to brag about it.

What do you think?
Does this change much?
What can be done?
Can it be changed?
War inevitable?
Tokyo nuked?
What can Japan do- (Oh No, there goes Tokyo, go go Godzilla!)

from cnn-
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/02/10/nkorea.talks/index.html

North Korea claims nuclear weapons
Pyongyang pulls out of six-nation talks
Thursday, February 10, 2005 Posted: 10:01 AM EST (1501 GMT)

(CNN) -- Citing what it calls U.S. threats to topple its political system, North Korea says it is dropping out of six-party nuclear talks and will "bolster its nuclear weapons arsenal," North Korea's official news agency KCNA reported.

Thursday's report was the first public claim by North Korea to actually possess nuclear weapons.

In the past, Pyongyang has claimed to have the ability and the right to produce them. U.S. officials said in April 2003 that North Korea claimed in private meetings to having at least one nuclear bomb.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called on North Korea to "reconsider their decision" to withdraw from the talks or risk further isolation, The Associated Press reported.

Rice said the North Koreans, by leaving negotiations, would be "deepening their isolation because everyone in the international community, and most especially North Korea's neighbors, have been very clear that there needs to be no nuclear weapons on the Korean peninsula in order to maintain stability in that region." (Full story)

In the statement reported by KCNA, the North Korean Foreign Ministry said: "We have shown utmost magnanimity and patience for the past four years since the first Bush administration swore in."

"We cannot spend another four years as we did in the past four years and there is no need for us to repeat what we did in those years."

The United States, the two Koreas, China, Japan and Russia have held three rounds of six-party talks since 2003, aimed at persuading the North to abandon its nuclear weapons development in return for economic and diplomatic rewards.

But no significant progress was reported in those talks, all hosted by China, North Korea's last remaining major ally.

A fourth round of talks scheduled for last September did not take place because North Korea refused to attend, citing what it called a "hostile" U.S. policy.

Thursday's statement from the North Korean foreign ministry said the country's nuclear weapons are "for self-defense to cope with the Bush administration's evermore undisguised policy to isolate and stifle the DPRK (Democratic People's Republic of Korea)."

The communist state said it felt "compelled to suspend" participation in the six-nation talks "for an indefinite period."

"We have wanted the six-party talks but we are compelled to suspend our participation in the talks for an indefinite period till we have recognized that there is justification for us to attend the talks and there are ample conditions and atmosphere to expect positive results from the talks," the Foreign Ministry said.

"The U.S. disclosed its attempt to topple the political system in the DPRK at any cost, threatening it with a nuclear stick. This compels us to take a measure to bolster its nuclear weapons arsenal in order to protect the ideology, system, freedom and democracy chosen by the people in the DPRK.

'Axis of evil'
In his inaugural address on January 20, U.S. President George W. Bush did not mention North Korea by name. But he said U.S. efforts have lit "a fire in the minds of men.

"It warms those who feel its power, it burns those who fight its progress and one day this untamed fire of freedom will reach the darkest corners of our world," he said.

In his February 2 State of the Union address, Bush only briefly mentioned North Korea, saying Washington was "working closely with governments in Asia to convince North Korea to abandon its nuclear ambitions."

Bush's tone was in stark contrast to his speech three years ago, when he branded North Korea part of an "axis of evil" with Iran and Iraq. It raised hopes for a positive response from North Korea.

Earlier this month, Bush and South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun agreed to push for an early resumption of the six-nation talks.

But Pyongyang called Bush's call for the spread of freedom in his January 20 inaugural speech as a diabolical U.S. scheme to turn the world into "a sea of war flames."

"In his inauguration speech, Bush trumpeted that 'fire of freedom will reach dark corners of the world.' This is nothing but a plot to engulf the whole world in a sea of war flames and rule it by imposing a freedom based on power," North Korea's state-run Pyongyang Radio said early this month.

Despite pulling out of the six-nation nuclear talks and saying Thursday it will "bolster" its nuclear arsenal, the Foreign Ministry statement said North Korea's "principled stand to solve the issue through dialogue and negotiations and its ultimate goal to denuclearize the Korean Peninsula remain unchanged."

Sohn Jie-ae, CNN's Correspondent in the South Korean capital Seoul, said the possibility of North Korea returning to the talks could not be ruled out.

She said officials from the other countries involved would try to convince North Korea to reverse its decision.
 
I do not think it will change anything, noone has thought about attacking North-korea before this, because this would lead to a crisis with China, their ally.
And North-korea would not be stupid enough to actually use this bomb(s) since even China would not suport them after that.
And how many bombs have they got? I do not think there are enough to win a war with them.
And I do not think they will be usefull as a threat in the way of "do not distzrb us when we attack South-korea or we will drop the bomb"
At least not as long as they have not got rockets that can reach America, which they, as far as I know do not.
 
I"m glad I'm not living is Seoul right now. Or the west coast for that matter. Or a major city...

I wonder if the US has enough bunker buster bombs to level both Iranian and North Korean nuclear sites? And what would the situation be if the Axis of Evil never been declared.

Turnip said:
I do not think it will change anything, noone has thought about attacking North-korea before this, because this would lead to a crisis with China, their ally.
True, sort of, China is more a reluctant ally than true ally.
And North-korea would not be stupid enough to actually use this bomb(s) since even China would not suport them after that.
False. With Lil' Kim at the helm, anything is possible
And how many bombs have they got? I do not think there are enough to win a war with them.
Any more than zero is too many. It only takes one to kill a million people and set off a catastrophic spiralling of tension throughout the world, from Pyongyang to Tehran to Moscow to Washington.
And I do not think they will be usefull as a threat in the way of "do not distzrb us when we attack South-korea or we will drop the bomb"
If they attack South Korea (in any way) the US in obligated to defend them. Since North Korea would eventually be overrun by the US-South Korean forces or China, lil Kim would not hesitate to throw his nuclear muscle around. Again, millions would die, probably in multiple locations. And the turmoil would provide convenient cover for other simmering hotspots around the globe, threats the US is not able to contain when deployed in both Korea and Iraq.
At least not as long as they have not got rockets that can reach America, which they, as far as I know do not.
False. Latest that I heard (back me up Welsh?) they can reach the West Coast. But look on the bright side, at least Herve wouldn't be fucking up Interplay anymore, since it would no longer exist.
 
Great news. World really needs a second totalitarian country with nuclear bombs and a madman at its helm (Can you guess which the first one is?).

Murdoch said:
False. Latest that I heard (back me up Welsh?) they can reach the West Coast.
They have had missiles capable of reaching the US soil for years now. Now they also have warheads for them. On a brighter note, at least we will no longer need to roleplay Fallout.
 
I actually it all has to do with someone,
fishtails.jpg


with serious sexual adequacy issues.

Missile range- I think the North Koreans tested a missile that put Japan within range, but don't have anything yet that can hit the US. If they have SLBMs, bought from the russkies- that could be a problem.

http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/jdw040802_1_n.shtml
http://www.nti.org/db/profiles/dprk/msl/cap/NKM_CcGO.html
http://fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/missile/

However, supposedly by 2015-
http://www.islam-online.net/English/Media/2003/06/North_Korea/article02.shtml

http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200405/200405040031.html

I am not sure how much difference this makes, but I would guess that the North Koreans will wave around their missiles and say "do this or else!" This has been going on for awhile.

nukes.jpg


As for the US- the US has deployed nuclear weapons at bases in South Korea, we keep them off-shore with the seventh fleet, and in submarines nearby. So the North Koreans know that they could "dust" Pyongyang fairly quick.

The US has tried negotiating with these assholes. It doesn't work. They break their word more than keep it, and because they got the bomb or nuclear power, they think they can get away with it.

The other problem is that the North Koreans might be in this as an export business. With missiles=
http://www.iht.com/articles/80002.html
so why not nuclear weapons?

I say, let's put the smack down on them fuckers.

One thing I find especially insidious though, as Murdoch points out-
Little Kim-

kim0727.jpg


and Lil' Kim
lil_kim.jpg


What is the vile connection that links these two?
 
Well if you want to attack Korea you will be thankful that we gained control of Iraqs oil because that would be one hell of a fight that would cost almost a limitless supply of cash and resources.
:?

Unless we dropped a few big boys and then the rest of the world would be pissed...........and the UN would prolly find a way to help the North Koreans by setting up a program that supposedly is helping the war torn civilians but is really just a front to give cash to the commies.
 
Someone we know is thinking-

Hmm.... I wonder how bad it would be.

We now have an excuse to use those nukes we've been saving for years and years. Chances are the fallout would blow out over the Sea of Japan or over China (fuck 'em for supporting the North Koreans).

It's not like North Korea is that meaningful.....

Pretty red mushroom clouds.

nuclear1.jpg



Would be over in a few hours.

Hmmm.... Then we could move those men to Iraq so we could attack Iran....

Hmmmm....

Thus the ruminations of Don Rumsfield.....
 
Lets see nuke the Koreans.........piss off China.......Nuke them........pray to god our missle defence system works...........piss off the whole Asian contentent.........pricless
 
Has anyone yet figured out that North Korea getting the bomb is kind of like-

George Bush ignoring the warnings before 9-11.

Has Dubbuyah dropped the ball again?
 
welsh said:
What is the vile connection that links these two?
They are the same person?
Kim.jpg


And what should Bush have done about North Korea building Nukes?
Attack North Korea? By not doing that he showed that he at least is not totaly insane.
 
Ok, to be fair to George, he has inherited a problem that got left over probably back to the Reagan/Daddy Bush era.

Still I think back in the days when the country was in famine, that a possibility might have existed for a bit of regime change.

Countries, even bad countries, have given up their nuclear weapons. Why not North Korea.

Diplomacy?

I suspect Bush will have more luck against this Kim
Lil_Kim2003-04-18.jpg


than-

kim.jong.il.bobblehead.jpg


tell the truth, you would much prefer to conquer-
LilKim30900_M.jpg
anyway.
 
North Korea got invaded by gringos in the 1950s and we would have kept it too.

Except a couple million Chinese beat the crap out of us and chased us back past Seoul again.

Sorry to sound un-american, and I know that Chosin Reservoir is a marine classic, but they did beat the crap out of us.

Still, I can't help feel disappointed. Between Saddam, the crazy Mullahs of Iran, and the Kims of Korea, I would have thought the Kims would be a more interesting challenge.
 
O you just wait and see, and hey even though China drove us back we threatend to drop the mammer and they fled back to their home.
 
Yeah, you just wait and see how we beat the crap of those commies. Just you wait, gonna show'em,
 
No Bob, they didn't. Replay the Korean War.

North Korea invades South Korea, pushed by the Soviets, because they think the US isn't serious about committing to South Korea.

North Korea rolls over the South Koreans and the token, trip-wire force, we send. They kick ass all the way to the tip of South Korea.

Then we pull a suprise by invading near Seoul and attacking from the South. We go after them past 38th parrallel and the Chinese say, "Hey you might want to consider this."

McArthur says fuck off, and we keep going, taking almost all of North Korea to the Yalu.

The Chinese pop the surprise that wasn't, chasing us all the way South, forcing the marines to retreat, until they (the commies) retake Seoul.

We counterattack and eventually force them back to the 38th Parrallel. The war generally stays there for years and becomes the DMZ. Porkchop Hill, Heartbreak Ridge- are fought there.

THe Chinese never went back with their tails between their legs. Instead we got stuck in a war of attrition while negotiations tried to broker an end of hostilities- and never reached a peace accord.


http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/reference/Korea/kw-remem.htm

http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent1?file=index
 
Firstly, we still don't know for sure if they have nuclear weapons, although it is highly likely. They might just be bluffing now while their development program continues, because they would assume the US has its hands full with Iraq. It might appear to the North Koreans as a good way to gain leverage in future negotiations, by raising the stakes.

Even if they do have the bomb I doubt that they would use it. It is just not in anyone's interest.

North Korea is probably run by a very wealthy and powerful elite, with Kim being the figurehead, who is either merely a puppet, or the guy to curry favour with. These party leaders would make sure that they lead a comfortable life off the suffering and poverty of the non/lower-ranked party members and would not want this oppressive regime changed. Even if Kim dies one of these people, probably the highest ranking general, can just take over in a similar role and continue the system.

Although South Korea feels threatened by North Korea militarily, it does not provide an economic competitor and serves as a good propaganda tool for promoting nationalist feeling. They would not mind if the regime continues as it has because the North Koreans mostly keep to themselves. If there was a regime change and reunification, South Korea would have to deal with a massive influx of hungry, unskilled workers and be obligated to rebuild the infrastructure in the north and look after all these people. This would be made worse by the immense confusion stemming from the remnant attitude from Communist propaganda. This would be an economic disaster for the south and the US might just sympathize.

China supports North Korea to counter South Korea and annoy the West without having to do much itself, wasting the international community's time and resources. It also gives China the opportunity to gain credit for stepping in as mediator at a critical moment in negotiations and try to gain advantage for itself as part of any back door deals that happen. They don't want refugees either for similar reasons to the south and they don't want change. China would not directly support North Korea in a war because although they are an amusing 'ally', good relations with the West and continual survival of the Communists in China is much more useful. A costly war might even eliminate life on earth. That's not to say that their might not be any 'volunteers' Cold War/50s style.

Japan and the Western nations are made very nervous by North Korea's nuclear weapons program but they do not want an incredibly costly war either, so they will let the regime continue, for a while at least. The most likely danger is that they could sell weapons, maybe even nuclear armaments, to terrorists or other people who actually want to use them. The targets would be Western nations which would be of little concern to North Korea as long as the weapons were not traced back to them.

So even if they do have a bomb it would only be used if:

1) Someone attacked them, so as they would be screwed anyway in the long term, they might as well do as much damage to their enemies as possible.

2) Against the odds there was a civil war due to a popular uprising or attempted coup which would could lead to them using the bomb against their own people or drawing other nations into the conflict which would lead to 1).

3) The party leadership totally loses its sanity and attacks someone else, which is pretty much the same as 1).

So there probably will not be a war and negotiations will go on and on indefinitely, with the West trying to stop talk turning into mushroom clouds and North Korea trying to get as much cash as they can.
 
welsh said:
Missile range- I think the North Koreans tested a missile that put Japan within range, but don't have anything yet that can hit the US.
Yeah they did, fired it right over Japan. Koreans in general have a lot of bad blood with the Japanese, and with all the American bases and personell in Japan, they could strike American interests at the same time.

Hell, all they'd have to do is target Roppongi on a Sturday night night and they'd wipe out half the US sailors in the Pacifc and a large portion of the world's Phillipino prostitutes :eek:
 
The thing about North Korea is that they have done some pretty flakey moves in the past. For example-
Smuggling commandos by sea into South Korea,
Digging tunnels under the DMZ
Assassinating a large group of South Koreans in Burma.

When dealing with North Korea, perhaps the last real personality-cult type totalitarian state that exists on a Stalinist model, they are a little batty.

I had heard a rumor of the North Korean rulers negotiating a possible escape to the West, if, during the famine, the military attempted a coup.

That said, if North Korea falls it will either be-
(1) outside intervention- a very dicey thing consideirng China
(2) A military coup from within.

Either way the nuclear weapon can either play defensively as a deterrent from attack. Economically weak, North Korea is slowly losing out in the balance of power against its southern neighbor. Should China eventually abandon North Korea, the nuclear weapons would be it's main insurance against outside intervention.

The other way is as a stick demanding attention. Threat of a nuclear weapon might coerce western assistance if they feel threatened or in trouble. Next time there is a famine, the North Koreans might ask for help more forcefully, and I doubt the Japanese would say no.

As for hitting US interests, the Seventh Fleet moves from the Persian gulf to Japan most of the year. Behind that you have the Third Fleet parked in Hawaii and then you have more fleet back in the US- San Francisco and San Diego. True that the North Koreans could nuke US bases in South Korea, Okinawa, Japan, and most other areas in the Asia Pacific. But they still can't hit our ICBMs in Nebraska, or the Bombers in Texas.

Furthermore, I doubt the North Koreans will ever have the capacity to construct a viable second strike capacity- it is only the fact that the missiles are already dug into the mountains that shields them from a possible first strike.

Should North Korea launch, I doubt the Chinese would want to stay tight to their allies. In someways, the Chinese may back off the alliance over the next few years since one doesn't want to ally with the fool that intends armageddon.

That said, should China want to start a serious fight in Asia vis-a-vis the US, say to do a land grab in Taiwan, North Korea might be a good place to start it. With US forces already overcommitted in the middle east, I doubt the US could engage in the Korean Peninsular and protect Taiwan at the same time.
 
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