OCC- Zombie Apocalypse- rules and guidelines

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Mr. Handy said:
The M16s and M4s in the game all have burst limiters. We didn't know about the +20% to hit (I've just been using +10% for firing a 3-round burst). Since everyone has at least 25% Rifle skill, anyone could do a controlled burst.

Jonathan,

Reading the burst rules, it seems that it's +5% per bullet, not just +5% per each bullet after the first and that's the way I've done it. But you can modify this as you like. I like the 90% cap on autofire regardless of skill because there is always some recoil to deal with.

If all the automatic rifles (M16A2 and M4s) have burst limiters, it's kind of a moot point, who can or can't do controlled burtsts. But for the SMGs and MGs you could say that a certain skill level (50%?) in order to use it, to reflect the training in maintaining fire discipline when shooting full-auto. Or, you could simply decide as per the character if they would go all-out or not based on your judgement, or leave it to the players as a personal RP thing.
 
Group,

Here is the approximate location of the T-Bone and the Motel 9. Midway between Brownson and Potter. There is even a dirt road there, the black line continuing a little ways North past Rte. 80 and the Union Pacific RR. Brownson is just off the map to the East.

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=41.20003&lon=-103.21954&s=200&size=l&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG

Apparently, both towns have airfields of some kind.

The T-Bone and Mr. Foos' would be around where the red cross is located.

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=41.1995&lon=-103.22107&size=l&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG

Brownson:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat...00&size=l&symshow=n&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG


Potter:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=41.21701&lon=-103.31409&s=200&size=l&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG


Satellite Image (blue line is added road)

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?f=q&...56058192930570148.00000111f402f1b3b7994&msa=0
 
Thanks for the photos and maps, Tony.

Erica's helicopter does have night vision equipment as well as a spotlight, and I'd say she has a pair of night vision goggles too. She's in luck, as her chopper has both LLTV and FLIR. Zombies, being dead, give off no body heat and would not show up so well under FLIR. It looks like three people could fit on the bench in back, but it may be a tight squeeze depending on how big they are, so it's possible that five people could be going to Omaha.

When thinking about where to refuel, keep in mind that cities are likely to be zombie central, so any airfields near urban areas may be overrun and crawling with zombies. Omaha has a lot of zombies too, but a small section of the city is still in human hands. If too much time goes by, though, it may be overrun as well. I had thought of Harrison in northwestern Nebraska when I was playing, as it's very isolated, but it's too far away from Omaha for the chopper to fly directly there without having to refuel a second time. Here are some links Welsh sent me last year about airports and airfields in Nebraska:

http://www.airfields-freeman.com/NE/Airfields_NE_W.htm

http://creports.capnhq.gov/airfield/airportselection.asp?state=NE&lstate=Nebraska

http://www.aero.state.ne.us/CONTACTS.html

EDIT: The third link above appears to no longer be valid

I wasn't sure about the burst rules, but it didn't make sense that a 2 round burst would get a whole +10% bonus over just firing a single bullet.

There may be automatic rifles without burst limiters, but the M4s and M16s are not among them. The SMGs and MGs do not have them, however, and the base skill there is only 15%. An untrained person would not be able to get the controlled burst bonus with them, but could effective double the base skill through burst fire, or quadruple it if it's at point blank range. When Lynne fired a burst at PB range from a Grease gun in Chapter 1, she had a 60% chance to hit.
 
Mr. Handy said:
Thanks for the photos and maps, Tony.

Erica's helicopter does have night vision equipment as well as a spotlight, and I'd say she has a pair of night vision goggles too. She's in luck, as her chopper has both LLTV and FLIR. Zombies, being dead, give off no body heat and would not show up so well under FLIR.

You're welcome! My pleasure.

So terrain-wise we're effectively in a flat shallow valley with a ridgeline to the South and hills to the North, with a creek and farmlands in between.

You're right: LLTV would be the best followed by the NVGs. FLIR would be better at determining who's a geek or not and spotting thermal signatures from running engines and occupied buildings. It can even pick up the thermal plumes from buried structures like bunkers (as they need some kind of ventilation).

It looks like three people could fit on the bench in back, but it may be a tight squeeze depending on how big they are, so it's possible that five people could be going to Omaha.

Here is a better shot of the 3 seats in back. With a lot of shoving, you could fit 3 people with 2 packs at their feet, plus whatever's crammed under the seat and on their laps. But shooting out the window would be difficult in such crammed conditions.

19254574-vi.jpg



When thinking about where to refuel, keep in mind that cities are likely to be zombie central, so any airfields near urban areas may be overrun and crawling with zombies.

This depends on if she "knows" that the cities are overrun or not. I got the impression there is little hard fact out there beyond what we can see. (I will ask this on the OOC thread.)

At any rate, the NSP Air Wing Section pads at Ogallala, Kearny and Lincoln would be her first choice. Logically, if she doesn't know better, she would assume that the cities would have a better concentration of police and National Guard, defensible positions and supplies. Either way, she'll look for a refuel point before the midway mark so they're not hung out to dry, and a second one just before Omaha.

In the original NotLD and DotD, the countryside was swamped in the first day. It took weeks for the cities to collapse. Your mileage may differ, of course.

I wasn't sure about the burst rules, but it didn't make sense that a 2 round burst would get a whole +10% bonus over just firing a single bullet.

There may be automatic rifles without burst limiters, but the M4s and M16s are not among them.

It doesn't matter too much either way if it's 15% or 20%, I guess.

There are versions of the M16/M4 with no burst limiter. Commandos would have the full-autofire M4A1 issued, and there is the M16A4 as well. (I think only Mech Inf. and Cav Scounts have been issued these as of yet.) The Canadian Diemaco C7A1 rifle and C8A1 carbine (licensed versions of the M16 rifle and M16 Commando carbine) both have full-autofire. They, and the C9 (FN Minimi/M249) are all equipped with a Leitz 3.4x optical sight. This won't matter unless you get up to Canada, of course...
 
There's a reason everything collapsed so quickly. I had also been wondering how everything was happening so quickly early on when I was a player, but as I learned more I realized what must have happened. I'm not sure how far along you've read in the story and I don't want to spoil the surprise, but the meteorites have been falling all across the world, including in cities. If you've gotten at least as far as the first multiple character deaths in Chapter 1, you'll know what kind of an impact they can have.

In Romero's movies, the cause behind the zombie outbreak isn't really explored in depth, but there is no evidence that it was a deliberate act. Zombie Apocalypse has some unique twists, though. If you've read Stephanie's speculations, you have a lot of information about the possible reasons. Everyone who dies becomes a zombie in short order, and a lot of people died overnight in the opening hours of the meteor shower. The "runners" (about 10% of our zombies) also change the equation. The zombies in the DotD remake moved quickly, and the cities collapsed in a day or so.

With a large initial wave of zombies in the cities, they have been able to find quite a large number of people to munch on and thus quickly increase their numbers. The countryside, so far, isn't anywhere near as bad, though there are still zombies prowling around. After the cities fall completely and zombies run out of food there, more of them will spread out looking for someone to eat.

Some automatic rifles in this game don't have burst limiters, but finding them is another matter. Thayer's M16 does have one - the part in Chapter 2 where I describe him burning through the clip is really him firing five bursts of three rounds each.

The characters could eventually end up going to Canada. That was an option that my characters discussed during the early stages of evacuation planning in Chapter 1. It's up to the survivors where they want to go, but many of them have already made some plans.
 
Hey Hellbent-

Thanks for the maps. I have been using top-maps and some of the ones off yahoo maps to help. You're about right where you locate the T-Bone/Motel. Also the pics posted in this thread help give you an idea of the layout.

You're right about the helicopter being Jet Ranger, (this was discussed with Handy some time ago, but I forget the details).
 
welsh said:
Hey Hellbent-

Thanks for the maps. I have been using top-maps and some of the ones off yahoo maps to help. You're about right where you locate the T-Bone/Motel. Also the pics posted in this thread help give you an idea of the layout.

You're right about the helicopter being Jet Ranger, (this was discussed with Handy some time ago, but I forget the details).

Welsh,

You're welcome. I'll have to rely on you to figure out to hits and all, until I get the hang of it again.
 
Mr. Handy said:
The characters could eventually end up going to Canada. That was an option that my characters discussed during the early stages of evacuation planning in Chapter 1. It's up to the survivors where they want to go, but many of them have already made some plans.

It's good they do have some kind of plan. God knows they need one! If they even do make it up to the Great While North, I'd be glad to give what input I can.
 
Here's the modified random hit location table we'll use from now on instead of the old 1d8 table.

Random Hit Location:

Roll 1d20:

01-03: L. Leg
04-06: R. Leg
07-09: Abdomen
10-14: Chest
15-16: R. Arm
17-18: L Arm
19-20: Head
 
Something to note about Cheyenne County, NE-


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne_County,_Nebraska
As of the census of 2000, there were 9,830 people, 4,071 households, and 2,686 families residing in the county. The population density was 3/km² (8/mi²). There were 4,569 housing units at an average density of 1/km² (4/mi²). The racial makeup of the county was 96.34% White, 0.14% Black or African American, 0.65% Native American, 0.40% Asian, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 1.46% from other races, and 0.98% from two or more races. 4.46% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race.

There were 4,071 households out of which 31.10% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 54.80% were married couples living together, 8.00% had a female householder with no husband present, and 34.00% were non-families. 30.10% of all households were made up of individuals and 13.30% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.38 and the average family size was 2.96.

In the county the population was spread out with 26.30% under the age of 18, 7.00% from 18 to 24, 26.70% from 25 to 44, 22.80% from 45 to 64, and 17.20% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 39 years. For every 100 females there were 96.00 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 92.20 males.

The median income for a household in the county was $33,438, and the median income for a family was $41,024. Males had a median income of $30,000 versus $20,467 for females. The per capita income for the county was $17,437. About 8.20% of families and 10.00% of the population were below the poverty line, including 11.80% of those under age 18 and 7.40% of those age 65 or over.

Ok, let's think about this- including tourists and visitors you are talking about a population of approximately 12,000 tops but its a pretty damn big county. Also note that there have been fires and much carnage away from the T-Bone.

One might also predict that not all the dead will come back. If they died in a fire, got a head wound, or were too grievously cannibalized or torn-apart- they are not returning. Furthermore, they are spreading. But if we assume that of this population of 12,000 people roughly 1,000 will not be coming back to life. We might guess that roughly 10% of the population is still alive (1,200) and the rest are zombies- or about 9-10,000.


Sydney- the county seat- has a population of about 6-7,000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney,_Nebraska

But the town has suffered a fire and has seen a lot of violence. Also its a bit closer to the blast that leveled Brownson.

Nearby Potter has a population of only 400, of which we can assume most have been zombified. Brownson doesn't even count as a town on the Cheyenne webpage.

http://www.co.cheyenne.ne.us/about.html

Why do I mention this? Because population density is not great. The group has been receiving hits by zombie waves since the morning, but eventually these numbers may go down.

Theoretically, a small group of people with a hell of a lot of ammunition and a secure shooting place could wipe many of the zombies in the county.

Also note that nearby Kimball, is nearly 1/3 the size of Sydney and Kimball County has 1/2 the population of Cheyenne County.

You may wish to consider the strategic consequences here. Warren AFB, is nearby the Cheyenne, a city of nearly 55,000 people- so the AFB - with a staff of only about 4-6,000 has a fight on its hands. But Warren has a lot of ground to defend and its staff has been worn down- its probably working at 25-50% capacity.

You have thus far relied on a rather passive defense- you may wish to go more offensive.
 
On the discussion of military jurisdiction-

I think its safe to say that government in Nebraska and the United States in general has collapsed.

The martial law concept in the U.S. is closely tied with the Writ of habeas corpus, which is in essence the right to a hearing on lawful imprisonment, or more broadly, the supervision of law enforcement by the judiciary. The ability to suspend habeas corpus is often equated with martial law. Article 1, Section 9 of the U.S. Constitution states, "The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion; the public Safety may require it."

In United States law, martial law is limited by several court decisions that were handed down between the American Civil War and World War II. In 1878, Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids military involvement in domestic law enforcement without congressional approval.

The National Guard is an exception, since unless federalized, they are under the control of state governors. [5]. This has now changed. Public Law 109-364, or the "John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007" (H.R.5122), was signed by President Bush on October 17, 2006, and allows the President to declare a "public emergency" and station troops anywhere in America and take control of state-based National Guard units without the consent of the governor or local authorities. Title V, Subtitle B, Part II, Section 525(a) of the JWDAA of 2007 reads "The [military] Secretary [of the Army, Navy or Air Force] concerned may order a member of a reserve component under the Secretary's jurisdiction to active duty...The training or duty ordered to be performed...may include...support of operations or missions undertaken by the member's unit at the request of the President or Secretary of Defense." [3]


ALso note-
On September 30, 2006, the Congress modified the Insurrection Act as part of the 2007 Defense Authorization Bill. Section 1076 of the new law changes Sec. 333 of the "Insurrection Act," and widens the President's ability to deploy troops within the United States to enforce the laws. Under this act, the President may also deploy troops as a police force during a natural disaster, epidemic, serious public health emergency, terrorist attack, or other condition, when the President determines that the authorities of the state are incapable of maintaining public order. The bill also modified Sec. 334 of the Insurrection Act, giving the President authority to order the dispersal of either insurgents or "those obstructing the enforcement of the laws."

The new law changed the name of the chapter from "Insurrection" to "Enforcement of the Laws to Restore Public Order."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_Act
reads-
§ 333. Major public emergencies; interference with State and Federal law

(a) USE OF ARMED FORCES IN MAJOR PUBLIC EMERGENCIES.--

(1) The President may employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service, to--
(A) restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the United States, the President determines that--
(i) domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order; and
(ii) such violence results in a condition described in paragraph (2); or
(B) suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy if such insurrection, violation, combination, or conspiracy results in a condition described in paragraph (2).
(2) A condition described in this paragraph is a condition that--
(A) so hinders the execution of the laws of a State or possession, as applicable, and of the United States within that State or possession, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State or possession are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or
(B) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.
(3) In any situation covered by paragraph (1)(B), the State shall be considered to have denied the equal protection of the laws secured by the Constitution.
(b) NOTICE TO CONGRESS.--

The President shall notify Congress of the determination to exercise the authority in subsection (a)(1)(A) as soon as practicable after the determination and every 14 days thereafter during the duration of the exercise of the authority.

also -
[edit] Homeland Security
TITLE 6 CHAPTER 1 SUBCHAPTER VIII Part H Sec. 466. Congress finds the following:

Section 1385 of title 18 (commonly known as the Posse Comitatus Act) prohibits the use of the Armed Forces as a Posse comitatus to execute the laws except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress.
Enacted in 1878, the Posse Comitatus Act was expressly intended to prevent United States Marshals, on their own initiative, from calling on the Army for assistance in enforcing Federal law.
Some believe the Posse Comitatus Act has served the Nation well in limiting the use of the Armed Forces to enforce the law. Whether this is a good thing or not is subject to debate.
The Posse Comitatus Act was not intended to be a complete barrier to the use of the Armed Forces for a range of domestic purposes, including law enforcement functions, when the use of the Armed Forces is authorized by Act of Congress or the President determines that the use of the Armed Forces is required to fulfill the President's obligations under the Constitution provide for the common defense or to respond promptly to insurrection, or other serious emergency.
Existing laws, including Title 10, Chapter 15 (commonly known as The Insurrection Act), and The Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (Title 42, Chapter 68), grant the President broad powers that may be invoked in the event of domestic emergencies, including an attack against the Nation using weapons of mass destruction, and these laws specifically authorize the President to use the Armed Forces to help restore public order.
The Posse Comitatus Act could be replaced, nullified or modified by a simple act of Congress.

Should Erica try to enforce state control over federal troops, chances are the USAF would argue that-
(1) law and order has collapsed and the President has declared a national emergency.
(2) They are authorized under the Insurrection Act and Homeland Security
(3) Warren AFB is the closest surviving governmental organization.
(4) USAF has jurisdiction as this is a matter of national security involving the protection of a vital part of the US strategic missile force.
(5) If Erica doesn't like this, she can get a lawyer.

I don't see much hope for Erica in trying to assert authority over the USAF.
 
welsh said:
Should Erica try to enforce state control over federal troops, chances are the USAF would argue that-
(1) law and order has collapsed and the President has declared a national emergency.
(2) They are authorized under the Insurrection Act and Homeland Security
(3) Warren AFB is the closest surviving governmental organization.
(4) USAF has jurisdiction as this is a matter of national security involving the protection of a vital part of the US strategic missile force.
(5) If Erica doesn't like this, she can get a lawyer.

I don't see much hope for Erica in trying to assert authority over the USAF.

Welsh,



Practically it depends on whether the USAF personnel still consider themselves bound by the rule of law.

If they do, then according to what you posted their authority only extends to assisting civil authorities in policing and maintaining civil order. While civil authority may have collapsed everywhere else, it has not collapsed at this location due to the presence of the state government via it's lawful agents: the Nebraska State Patrol. Therefore, the limit of the USAF's authority is to assist said NSP, not usurp their authority. Nowhere does Martial Law allow the armed forces to assume complete authority over the civil authorities. That's called a "coup", and I'm pretty sure that's not legally allowed, even under a state of emergency.

Now, the USAF personnel may not care about legal niceties. After all, they have bigger guns. But this means they are obeying illegal orders at best, or deserters at worse.

At any rate, the point is not to exert rightful legal authority. The point is to restore a litttle useful perspective to the situation in that they are there to help the civvies, and that any actions on their part must be in concert with the civil authorities (viz. the NSP), and not dictated at gunpoint. (If this is contrary to their orders, then they have been given illegal orders.)


On another note, I did get around to reading Delta Green. While in CoC combat turns are left vague, in DG it's specified at 3 seconds. Must have slipped my mind. That's something about CoC: rules are slightly changed between editions, new ones are introduced in supplemental materials, and so on.
 
Welsh,

Practically it depends on whether the USAF personnel still consider themselves bound by the rule of law.

And they do. They are responding to what they perceive as a national emergency involving the breakdown of effective law and order. And while a few state troopers at a truck stop might represent the law of Nebraska, its unlikely that the USAF will take orders from them.

According to them, this is a national emergency, and national law and authority- the President in this case- will govern.

They are not staging a coup- they are not trying to overthrow the Constitution of the US- which is the law of the land.

Granted states have sovereinty, but even the State's emergency powers- its use of the National Guard, will fall under federal control.

At present the USAF is not trying to usurp Erica or Bo's authority, however. Their mission is to secure a facility that the USAF, acting on behalf of US national security in a time of crisis, and found to be critical.

These are USAF SF- they take their orders from the President and then their base commander. THey see themselves as defending the US from potential catastrophic attack at a time when law and order in the US has degraded.

Erica, for instance, cannot claim to be in direct link with the governor of Nebraska (who is currently being consumed). But the USAF can claim to be linked, at least to the outside world, through Foo's comm system. Foo, incidently, has a connection to the federal government.

There is another basis of federal authority here- but I am going to hold that back.

If they do, then according to what you posted their authority only extends to assisting civil authorities in policing and maintaining civil order. While civil authority may have collapsed everywhere else, it has not collapsed at this location due to the presence of the state government via it's lawful agents: the Nebraska State Patrol. Therefore, the limit of the USAF's authority is to assist said NSP, not usurp their authority. Nowhere does Martial Law allow the armed forces to assume complete authority over the civil authorities. That's called a "coup", and I'm pretty sure that's not legally allowed, even under a state of emergency.

Assist- but what if the NSP command and control has collapsed. And, as noted, the USAF has not exerted complete authority over the NSP. But it is acting in compliance with orders from a local general, who is acting in response to a national emergency as decreed by the President. The question is one of authority, and on this matter, I think its safe to say that the Federal law preempts state.

Now, the USAF personnel may not care about legal niceties. After all, they have bigger guns. But this means they are obeying illegal orders at best, or deserters at worse.

Not according to them. Rather, they are acting under color of law by an acting general who is trying to secure a region that has been devestated by an epidemic or insurrection- definitely a national emergency involving a break down of law and order.

At any rate, the point is not to exert rightful legal authority. The point is to restore a litttle useful perspective to the situation in that they are there to help the civvies, and that any actions on their part must be in concert with the civil authorities (viz. the NSP), and not dictated at gunpoint. (If this is contrary to their orders, then they have been given illegal orders.)

Actually, they are helping the civies. THey are trying to safe guard national security, assert law and order and are even trying to combat an epidemic and insurrection.

THat the NSP and the military follow two different sovereign governments- is a consequence of the division of sovereignty between the federal government and the state.

Under these conditions, the federal government has broad authority to act and will claim federal preemption to state law.

This is a constitutional principle- when federal law conflicts with state- federal law preempts. Likewise, you will find that usually the federal will preempt state officials in the carrying out of official duties. This is one of the reasons why the FBI often will take over a case claiming jurisdiction. Here, the USAF will claim jurisdiction. It won't command Erica or Bo or Barring. But it can seize the helicopter for national security purposes based on its jurisdictional authority in this matter.

On another note, I did get around to reading Delta Green. While in CoC combat turns are left vague, in DG it's specified at 3 seconds. Must have slipped my mind. That's something about CoC: rules are slightly changed between editions, new ones are introduced in supplemental materials, and so on.

I agree. It gets confusing. This is why keepers often designate what rules they are using. Bah! who has time for rules in this kind of game! (Or so says the USAF!)
 
welsh said:
Welsh,

Practically it depends on whether the USAF personnel still consider themselves bound by the rule of law.

And they do. They are responding to what they perceive as a national emergency involving the breakdown of effective law and order. And while a few state troopers at a truck stop might represent the law of Nebraska, its unlikely that the USAF will take orders from them.

Still, the NPS are the civil authorities there, like it or not, regardless of any higher chain of command. Civil authority may have collapsed elsewhere, but it hasn't here.

Martial Law does not mean military rule, at least not in the USA. If there were no representatives of the state government there, then the USAF could unilaterally act to maintain order. It's debatable how well they are acting to protect the civilians, Erica can see that they've taken over the most defensible terrain, leaving everyone else to make do in a bombed-out building.

Seizing the helo would be an unlawful act, period, as it's being used by the legally empowered civil authorities. Just because someone's acting under the orders of a General or the President or God does not make them above the law. After all, they could be operating under illegal orders...

In the end, it's a gray area. Sorry to repeat myself, but the point is not to exert legal authority over the USAF. But to bring about an understanding between the two side that will lead to some kind of accommodation. As it is now, this seems unlikely.
 
Unfortunately, I think this matter does fall on the helicopter.

As far as the USAF goes, its only concern at the moment has been protecting the comm position, in large part because that's necessary for Warren Airbase- which the USAF would see as necessary for the defense and security of the US.

Therefore, protecting the base is the protection of civilians- not necessarily locally but nationally. It's a national crisis requiring a national response. Rather, but keeping the intel flowing to Warren, the USAF helps maintain Warren as a deterrent and as a potential military asset of the US. If it weren't critical to national security of the US- they would not be there (or at least so the USAF thinks).

Whether they can seize the helicopter in order to comply with their mission- that might be more hazy.

You are right, that the president and the executive are still bound by the law of the US. That law being the Constitution. But the constitution gives federal law preemption of most state law in matters of a national concern. While it might be necessary for a state to call in FEMA if its a state emergency, I suspect that the president can call in FEMA if its a more nation-wide problem. Don't forget, presidential authority increases under national emergency and times of war.

But that's a problem of state vs federal jurisdiction. At this point, I suspect the USAF might be willing to deal with the legal challenges later in order to carry out their mission- such as to get resupply, to move the comm gear to a safer location, etc.

I appreciate you making these arguments, Hellbent. I would think that a lot of USAF would have a bad feeling about federal seizure of a State Police helicopter. In the end though, it will be the USAF local CO who makes the call. He may ask for instruction from Warren and then will comply with that order.

The grayer the issue the more likely he will take his own initiative.

Likewise, the more that civil authority falls apart, the less restraint those civil laws will have. But that's why its a breakdown of law and order- not just within society but between state and society.
 
Handy,

I appreciate the military would feel justified in their actions. Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing them! From the civilian side, the military is supposed to follow the rule of law and a clear ethical code about the treatment of civilians.

According to what's been posted earlier and my own imperfect understanding, seizing property and building is against the law, even under Martial Law. Also, from what I've read about the US military's ethical codes, civilians are to be treated in a humane and respectful manner. Denying civilians safe shelter from a clear and present danger under the pretext of "quarantine" is clearly in contravention of this. (Quarantine is a valid medical concept, but this implies that you take people into quarantine as a form of protective custody and you are therefore obliged to clothe, feed, and shelter them, which is apparently not what's happening here.)

So, there are obviously different but valid interpretations here. Also under my understanding, a Know roll was required to access this information. The character in question made these rolls. I think it's unreasonable under the circumstances to expect Erica to have an extensively nuanced view of the situation, given her predisposition and concerns. In other words, this subjective interpretation for the character seems good enough as she's not a lawyer, she's focused on the treatment of civilians, and anyone can see there is a problem there.

Now, if you're saying "well, it's kind of a grey area" then that's fine. If these airmen, like many soldiers in real life, tend to jettison rules of ethics on the battlefield, that's fine too. But this is a matter for IC roleplay to play out. (Following is an interesting article about a recent study that shows US soldiers in Iraq ans Afghanistan tend to ignore core Army codes of ethical treatment of civilians.)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18496711/

To make myself clear, I'm not interested in cliche civilians-vs-military conflict. I think there can be some kind of mutually agreeable settlement or cooperation that is other than effectively military rule (that is, a military usurpation of civil authority, even for the best of reasons). In other words, I don't mind going back-and-forth on this OOC, but this is really a conflict that could be worked out IC.

Obviously, neither one of us wants this to come across as being a "me-vs-you" situation! :D
 
This is a good debate, and ultimately the characters will have to work things out between each other. It's perfectly legitimate for Erica to feel the way she does based on what she knows.

Seizing the motel would be illegal, except there is another consideration of which Erica is not aware. The motel is actually already a federal facility, a CIA listening post. It is a working motel too (or at least it was until this morning) because that is its cover. While Mr. Foo is the motel's legal owner, he is also a federal employee who has been operating the facility on behalf of the CIA. The USAF can make the argument that the building is already federal, and that they are using it for its intended purpose - collecting intelligence. However, most of the civilians aren't supposed to know about this purpose because of the secrecy involved, which may require them to talk to Mr. Foo about the matter privately.

Captain Lereux will need to make the call about the helicopter. He does have a little time, since it'll take a while longer to refuel it. However, he is currently unable to communicate with Warren because the comm gear is disconnected and in transit, and Malanowski's radio isn't working. This means he will have to make any decisions based on what he knows until contact is reestablished, which will take over twenty minutes.

Yes, the military is obligated to feed, clothe, and shelter the civilians, but this is constrained by their ability to do so and their lack of manpower. The mission was assembled hurriedly, and they barely have supplies for themselves. Going by the information they had before the comm system went off line, they did not even know if any civilians would be left alive by the time they got there. They can request additional supplies from Warren, however.

The only nearby places to shelter the civilians would be the motel and the diner. The military has claimed the motel, leaving just the bombed-out diner - and the secret facility beneath it. It is possible for people to live down there. It may not be safe, but what is at this point? The civilians actually have more food and supplies than the military does. There is a lot of food in the fridge and freezer, though if the power stays off much longer the perishables will go bad. There is also plenty of clothing and other useful items in the crates in the underground warehouse. There is more that they can do, and Lt. Blanco could be instrumental in making recommendations.

The laptops are federal property, so the USAF could justify impounding them. Likewise, the damaged National Parks Service helicopter is also federal property, and there would be no issue with the military commandeering it, though there is no point now as it isn't going anywhere. The argument for seizing the State Police chopper is much more iffy, but in the end this is something the characters are going to have to resolve.
 
Mr. Handy said:
This is a good debate, and ultimately the characters will have to work things out between each other. It's perfectly legitimate for Erica to feel the way she does based on what she knows.

Handy,

Cool, this is all I really wanted to know as a player. Everything else is interesting (and true enough). But unless my character knows this (and she doesn't) then it's not like you need to convince me personally. :)
 
Welsh and I aren't trying to convince you; in fact, I personally agree with you. My own philosophy about government is that it ought to be no bigger than it has to be, and that the circumstances under which the federal government can assert authority over the states should be limited.
 
Mr. Handy said:
Welsh and I aren't trying to convince you;

Handy,

Great to know! The amount of posting about the military aspect was getting to be... impressive.

in fact, I personally agree with you. My own philosophy about government is that it ought to be no bigger than it has to be, and that the circumstances under which the federal government can assert authority over the states should be limited.

Hey, being Canadian I don't really have a dog in this fight, strictly speaking. Under similar circumstances, according to the "National Survival" section of the Defense Act (normally regarding nuclear war) surviving military forces would be placed under Provincial control. The RCMP, our national police, are at the same level as the miltiary (and in fact technically are military) but in circumstances of national crisis would probably have precedent.

Normally, I wouldn't have a problem with central federal government authority balanced with Provincial powers. Interestingly enough, in Canada over times power has steadily devolved from the central government control to the provinces, whereas it seems in the USA the process has been the other way.

In a national crisis I think the central government has an important leadership function. But military rule is something so completely alien to our democratic society.
 
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