Palestinians Are Crazy

[Jebus]

Before continuing this discussion, let me point out that I might very well not be able to pursue this one until the end, due to a lack of time/energy, as has been my problem throughout the last three months.

Anyway:

Of course when the palestinians launch waves of suicide bombers and blow up truck loads of children its not their fault, its the jews fault for wanting to protect themselves by building walls, destroying sucispicious houses believe to belong to one of the terrorist actions.

You seem to be mixing up some cause/effect relationships here.

Nobody denies the Isaelies for wanting to be safe. However, as every sane person knows, no wall is ever going to be high enough as long as the causes have not been taken away.
I think you and I both know Palestinians don't go around blowing themselves up because they dislike walls.

You dont seriously believe the Israeli army would would tear down palestinian housing to show their power or terrorize them?

You don't seriously believe the Palestinians would tape sticks of dynamite around their waist and blow themselves into a million pieces just for the sheer fun of terrorizing people?

Hmm... Jebus, Jewish through your maternal heritage?

Grandmother from my father's side.
And hey, my first middle name is actually "Rachel". And while that may sound like a fairly ordinary name in English - thrust me, it sound godawful when pronounced in Flemish. Like you've got snot stuck in the back of your throat, actually.

By the way, since this is a potentially volatile topic:
<Snip picture>

NAZI

I think that the majority of anti-semetic actions in Europe are Arab-on-Jew or Euro-on-Arab, but there really IS a growing blurring of anti-semetic and anti-zionist lines.

Ehm... How is Euro-on-Arab anti-semitic?

Plus, there is indeed a lot of anti-zionism around these parts.
It doesn't bother me, though, since I'm anti-zionistic myself. I think I already explained why to you on a previous occasion... To tired to go search for it, though...

Let's say the Plattesduetch got really angry at you for not becoming part of Germany. Thus they send in a suicide bomber into....whatever you guys use in the abscence of Churches/Synagoges. They kill 40 people. Let's hav that repeated, say, a thousand times, and combine that with 4 wars to try and push the Dutch "into the sea".

If that's not a fucking exuse I have no idea what is.

Let's say the English suddenly decide they want Chicago back, as they have onwed it a long time ago, and therefore still believe they have rights to it.
Thus they start lobbying around, turning international politics in their favor, and start buying the most fertile land from under your feet.
Then they start a terrorist campaign against Washington, as they want them to release Chicago and "give it back" to the English.
Then, as soon as Washington indeed lets Chicago go, the UN steps in and, without even asking for your opinion, divides your land in two, giving all the "good parts" to the English.

So you rebel.

So the English declare war upon you, and thanks to larger financial assets take the upper hand, drive hundreds of thousands of Americans out of Chicago, and start slaughtering entire villages; and, after winning, declare all the fertile land in Chicago to be part of England.

After which the surrounding American states declare war on England. A war which the English when, because they aquired the help of the governor of a neighboring state, governor... Abdullah (*ahem*), who they then proceed to betray and drop like a stone as soon as the war is over...

etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

For about sixty years.

Now if that ain't a "fucking excuse" (your own words) to go blow yourself up, then I don't know what is.

I also think you betray a certain....weirndess here. If I replaced "anti-semeite" in the above sentance with "arab, blackie or Mexican", I'd be banned.

So, if you were to type:

"Somebody criticizes Palestines foreign policy? ANTI-ARAB!"

You'd be banned?

*ahem*

B&



And thanks for backing me up, Sander.

 

[John Uskglass]

Plus, there is indeed a lot of anti-zionism around these parts.
It doesn't bother me, though, since I'm anti-zionistic myself. I think I already explained why to you on a previous occasion... To tired to go search for it, though...

I said anti-semetism. There's a big problem, just ask the French Prime Minister.

Let's say the English suddenly decide they want Chicago back, as they have onwed it a long time ago, and therefore still believe they have rights to it.
Thus they start lobbying around, turning international politics in their favor, and start buying the most fertile land from under your feet.
Then they start a terrorist campaign against Washington, as they want them to release Chicago and "give it back" to the English.
Then, as soon as Washington indeed lets Chicago go, the UN steps in and, without even asking for your opinion, divides your land in two, giving all the "good parts" to the English

Chicago was French, not English. Le Duh.

Let's say the French invaded England and decided to start turning them into soap outside London. Then, when they realize they need a new homeland because there's no more England, they decide to return to Saxony, thier religious and racial home. The English had always been a large part of the population there, and over the century of French slaughter the English decided to return "home". The majority of Germans are recent immigrants, and Saxony was culturally always a part of Hannover. But when the Germans are presented with a good deal for an English state, but they refuse, saying Saxony is a holy land, something not supported in German scripture. So the English move in, take over. The Dutch, the Germans and the Austirans, because of thier nationalism/scripture issues, decide to wage a war of Genocide. England whoops all thier collective asses and takes territory.

So, if you were to type:

"Somebody criticizes Palestines foreign policy? ANTI-ARAB!"

You'd be banned?

*ahem*

I stopped that a while ago. I still think Democracy+Islam=Oil+Water. So does Montez, for that matter.

Of course, there are many idiots become anti-semitic because of Israeli actions. The intelligent ones, however, don't, and a lot of speech you see in the media and opinion articles and forums like this one comes down to "You have anti-Israeli ideas, thus you're an anti-semite." I loathe it, not in the least because it bars intelligent and critical thinking.

So intellegent people are immune to anti semetiscm? Can you say David Irving?

The comparison is a bit bad, mainly because of the "getting mad for not becoming part of Germany".
In any case, one of the worst excuses in existance is "they did it to us", and I certainly hope you know this. This is one of the reasons why I don't agree with a lot of Israeli actions, the Israeli actins are more bent on self-preservation than on ending or mitigating the conflict, and with that I have a problem.

That said, not all actions have a valid excuse.

They're just not comparable IMHO. The Palestinians bomb a Synagoge, the Isrealis plan an attack against a man who orders these assaults. The Egyptians try to force the Isrealis into the Ocean, the Isrealis take Siani.

Yes, interestingly we were the one country where there was an official protest to against Jewish deportations (the Dokwerkers' Strike). Sadly we still had a lot of Jews deported, percentage wise we were one of the worst nations at that.

That's cause you where'nt expecting to be invaded. You're being modest, there's a reason Anne Frank was in the Netherlands.

There was also the NSB, a political party formed in the
thirties which didn't have much popular support, but based itself off of the NSDAP. It was the only political party not disbanded by the nazis after 1941. Its leader, Mussert, also became a prominent person amongst the Nazis.

To be fair, though, most countries had their own divisions amongst the SS.

Yep, true.

No, you don't. Objectivity and rationale are the very least you can use to counter a man's argument, more specifically someone's arguments if they are intelligent and politely offered.

Yes, you do. After 5,000 years of taking constant shit, you have every right to.

I've never lived in a "big city" so I can't really comment here since I've never lived near any major Jewish centre, but I have to say that this is probably due to the level of religiousness and adherence to one's religion. Here, I think, most Jews would stop calling themselves Jews as soon as they stop believing in the religion, I don't know the situation in the USA, but this also means that most Jews step out of the communities as soon as they become a-religious or differently religious, and the communities therefore reach a much more close-knit level because they really only contain people who have the religious Jewish state of mind.
Note that this is mostly speculation, though.

Judaism tends to be a bit more agnostic/athiest friendly. There's a tradition dating before Jesus of the lack of an afterlife, and the Talmud talks of God being an infanite emptiness and everything at the same time.

It's much more an expression of culture or individuality then in soem cases individuality. Judaism is a religion based on an ethnicity, a history, not like Christanity or even Islam, thus celebrating the Jewish holidays is as much a celebration of Jewish history as God.

It's more comparable to say, Greek Orthodoxy or Turkish Islam. You go to Synagoge because you're Jewish, not because you personally belive. I'd be kind of surprised if Jebus actually belived in the Talmud more then I do, but it's an expression of 5,000 years of survival and such.

 

[Sander]

So intellegent people are immune to anti semetiscm? Can you say David Irving?

Actually, I'd immediately stop referring to someone as intelligent (as in: using his intellect) when he starts to become prejudiced. But that's just me.
That said, what I meant was when the points made are intelligent and politely made.

They're just not comparable IMHO. The Palestinians bomb a Synagoge, the Isrealis plan an attack against a man who orders these assaults. The Egyptians try to force the Isrealis into the Ocean, the Isrealis take Siani.

Of course the two aren't comparable, but again, this doesn't make the Israelis nor the Palestinians right in what they are doing.

That's cause you where'nt expecting to be invaded. You're being modest, there's a reason Anne Frank was in the Netherlands.

Well, actually, it's due to two things:
1) The fact that the NSB and the Nazis ran a semi-terror campaign, and only one tip was needed to bring down an entire house of Jewish people in hide-out.
2) We had a very efficient and well-run registration of the population, giving the Nazi's easy access to a register filled with the details of who's a Jew and who isn't.

Yes, you do. After 5,000 years of taking constant shit, you have every right to.

Why? Why would you have any more right to kill someone after 5000 years of being picked on than if you weren't picked on at all? Murder is inexcusable (this goes for the Palestinians as well), unless it saves multiple lives.

Judaism tends to be a bit more agnostic/athiest friendly. There's a tradition dating before Jesus of the lack of an afterlife, and the Talmud talks of God being an infanite emptiness and everything at the same time.

It's much more an expression of culture or individuality then in soem cases individuality. Judaism is a religion based on an ethnicity, a history, not like Christanity or even Islam, thus celebrating the Jewish holidays is as much a celebration of Jewish history as God.

It's more comparable to say, Greek Orthodoxy or Turkish Islam. You go to Synagoge because you're Jewish, not because you personally belive. I'd be kind of surprised if Jebus actually belived in the Talmud more then I do, but it's an expression of 5,000 years of survival and such.

Heh. Nice summary....

Let's say the French invaded England and decided to start turning them into soap outside London. Then, when they realize they need a new homeland because there's no more England, they decide to return to Saxony, thier religious and racial home. The English had always been a large part of the population there, and over the century of French slaughter the English decided to return "home". The majority of Germans are recent immigrants, and Saxony was culturally always a part of Hannover. But when the Germans are presented with a good deal for an English state, but they refuse, saying Saxony is a holy land, something not supported in German scripture. So the English move in, take over. The Dutch, the Germans and the Austirans, because of thier nationalism/scripture issues, decide to wage a war of Genocide. England whoops all thier collective asses and takes territory.

I have to say right here that this isn't what I personally have a problem with, the Israelis have every right to defend themselves, and by international law, they also own the country they currently own. However, this does not mean that I agree with their methods. To me it seems that they are bent on isolationism and creating a, so-to-speak, island for themselves in the middle of the Arab world instead of actually trying to co-exist. Co-existing is difficult, true, but being nice and playing well with the other kids often helps a lot more than trying to wage war on them.

 

[Executioner]

I have to say right here that this isn't what I personally have a problem with, the Israelis have every right to defend themselves, and by international law, they also own the country they currently own. However, this does not mean that I agree with their methods. To me it seems that they are bent on isolationism and creating a, so-to-speak, island for themselves in the middle of the Arab world instead of actually trying to co-exist. Co-existing is difficult, true, but being nice and playing well with the other kids often helps a lot more than trying to wage war on them.

Is it me or do the Palestinian terrorist groups start sending out wave after wave of suicide bombers whenever some sort of agreement is about to be reached? I think the goal of co-existing has been mostly hampered by these groups, not any government.

 

[NgInE]

genetically speaking, Jews aren't even from the middle-east. their ancestors are more likely to have come from some mountain-range near Russia. so Israel could never be the promissed land. and besides, the Jewish people are 'guests' in Palestinia. they have no right to threat the Palestines as they do. (nor have the Palestines) it's just a battle which will not end, untill either all Jews or all of the Palestines are dead and buried. a war without an end as it seems.

 

[Kahgan]

Well, in my oh so humble opinion, the main problem is all religions, see, *every* damned religion has at some point terrorized an other, except hinduism and budhism...maybe, I'm not entirely sure.
Christianity: crusades...and what Bush is up to now, is in fact no more than a second crusade...
Jewish: what this topic is all about...
Muslimish: ergh, I'm not really sure if there have ever been any massive crusade-like stuff from there, but they claim to be T3H religion...

...and to a certain point, (I never thought I 'd live to see the day) I agree with Jebus...TO A CERTAIN POINT!

 

[The Commissar]

Muslimish: ergh, I'm not really sure if there have ever been any massive crusade-like stuff from there, but they claim to be T3H religion...

There was a gigantic Islamic Crusade to take over the known world long before the Christian crusades. The French stopped them at Tours in 732 (possibly one of the most influential battles ever) and the Spanish eventually kicked them out after a long occupation (The Reconquista anyone?) but they got pretty close to total European domination for a little bit. It was one of the reasons people were willing to join the later Chrisitian Crusades. Although it had been a long time, the memory of the Muslim hordes and brutal occupation was there for many. Of course, by this time the Muslim culture was so much more advanced then Europe they no longer felt compelled to invade and destroy all of Christiandom. They never really recovered from the brutalization of the crusades though.

 

[John Uskglass]

genetically speaking, Jews aren't even from the middle-east. their ancestors are more likely to have come from some mountain-range near Russia. so Israel could never be the promissed land. and besides, the Jewish people are 'guests' in Palestinia. they have no right to threat the Palestines as they do. (nor have the Palestines) it's just a battle which will not end, untill either all Jews or all of the Palestines are dead and buried. a war without an end as it seems.

The Arabs are'nt native to Palestine either, they're from Arabia.

Do you want to give the Isrealis Georgia?

There was a gigantic Islamic Crusade to take over the known world long before the Christian crusades. The French stopped them at Tours in 732 (possibly one of the most influential battles ever) and the Spanish eventually kicked them out after a long occupation (The Reconquista anyone?) but they got pretty close to total European domination for a little bit. It was one of the reasons people were willing to join the later Chrisitian Crusades. Although it had been a long time, the memory of the Muslim hordes and brutal occupation was there for many. Of course, by this time the Muslim culture was so much more advanced then Europe they no longer felt compelled to invade and destroy all of Christiandom. They never really recovered from the brutalization of the crusades though.

Yep, you're entirely right here. Though the Byzantines did as much to stop the Muslims as the French, maybe more as the battle of Tours was minor when compared to 200 years of fighting in Anatolia.

Well, in my oh so humble opinion, the main problem is all religions, see, *every* damned religion has at some point terrorized an other, except hinduism and budhism...maybe, I'm not entirely sure.

Oh sweet Jesus, I'll never understand the ignorance of the athiest!

Hinduism is an EXTREMELY violent religion, just look at the Thuggies. Buddhism, in certain forms, can be EXTREMELY violent. Look at the treatment of the Christians in Vietnam, Japan, or the 100 or so odd years during the Sengoku Gedia (sorry might be spelled wrong) when Hokkaido was largely ruled by warrior monks.

 

[Kahgan]

Muslimish: ergh, I'm not really sure if there have ever been any massive crusade-like stuff from there, but they claim to be T3H religion...

There was a gigantic Islamic Crusade to take over the known world long before the Christian crusades. The French stopped them at Tours in 732 (possibly one of the most influential battles ever) and the Spanish eventually kicked them out after a long occupation (The Reconquista anyone?) but they got pretty close to total European domination for a little bit. It was one of the reasons people were willing to join the later Chrisitian Crusades. Although it had been a long time, the memory of the Muslim hordes and brutal occupation was there for many. Of course, by this time the Muslim culture was so much more advanced then Europe they no longer felt compelled to invade and destroy all of Christiandom. They never really recovered from the brutalization of the crusades though.

ah, thanks for the info, adds to my point

Well, in my oh so humble opinion, the main problem is all religions, see, *every* damned religion has at some point terrorized an other, except hinduism and budhism...maybe, I'm not entirely sure.

Oh sweet Jesus, I'll never understand the ignorance of the athiest!

Hinduism is an EXTREMELY violent religion, just look at the Thuggies. Buddhism, in certain forms, can be EXTREMELY violent. Look at the treatment of the Christians in Vietnam, Japan, or the 100 or so odd years during the Sengoku Gedia (sorry might be spelled wrong) when Hokkaido was largely ruled by warrior monks.

ah, okay, sorry...but I said "except *MAYBE*", because I didnt really know, but it just adds to my point

 

[NgInE]

The Arabs are'nt native to Palestine either, they're from Arabia.

Do you want to give the Isrealis Georgia?

yes, but they were there first and the main reason that the Israelites won't leave is because they believe that Israel is their prommised land.

 

[The Commissar]

The way I see it, if a wandering nationless civilization decides they want some territory and manage to hack some out for themselves, they are entitled to keep it if they can fight off the angry previous owners, at least in ancient times. I mean, the inhabitant had plenty of opportunity to defeat the israelites if they had presented a unified front. Instead they minded their own business and only fought when directly threatened, and the israelites were able to take them piece meal.

They spent a few hundred years trying to get it back though, and succeeded every so often, but they never kicked the Jews out. They subjugated them and used them as slave labor instead of killing them all or forcing them out of the country, and eventually the Jews would rise up and kick them out again.

Only later with the Persians did we see any steps towards removing them from the land. It took Titus burning Jerusalem and a dedicated effort by the Romans to scatter them.

Of course the current mess is a different matter, but still similar in concept. Isreal was granted some land, the Arab nations tried to take it several times, and Isreal kicked their collective butts. scoring some more land on the way. The Arab nations withdrew, and left a bunch of angry and now nationless Palestinians.

 

[John Uskglass]

The Arabs are'nt native to Palestine either, they're from Arabia.

Do you want to give the Isrealis Georgia?

yes, but they were there first and the main reason that the Israelites won't leave is because they believe that Israel is their prommised land.

No, actually the Arabs where'nt there or do they belive in Palestine as a promised land.

The Arabs come from....get this.....Arabia. Before the Isrealites there where probably Aramaic speakers, who are about as related to the Arabs as Anglos are to Panjabis.

Palestine is secondary holy land to Islam. It's holy status only arose after the conquest of the Holy Land. Arabia is mentioned as holy land, a land where disease cannot affect people and the home of the prohpets and such. Palestine arose as holy land only in backlash to the creation of the Isreali state; before this the mixed Turkish-Arab Ottomans sold off most of Palestine to the "Zionists".

 

[NgInE]

...i was talking about the Jews, not the Arabs.

 

[Tannhauser]

Lauren brought something to mind just now...

Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Attendee: Brought peace?
Reg: Oh, peace - shut up!
Reg: There is not one of us who would not gladly suffer death to rid this country of the Romans once and for all.
Dissenter: Uh, well, one.
Reg: Oh, yeah, yeah, there's one. But otherwise, we're solid.

 

[The Commissar]

I need to watch that again.