Penny Arcade talks on Fallout 3, socrates200x replies

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I recently succumbed and bought a 360 (it was reduced) and playing COD3 (it came with it) I was surprised about the saving.

I got up to the Fuel depot mission and have been dying a lot. There's a point I can reach and then after that I have difficulty (the second guard tower) but not being able to save at anytime like on a pc the repetitiveness of redoing the same level is grinding me down. I'm surprised that console gamers aren't put off by it. Seeming as how everyone says the games are dumbed down for them.

I find it odd that on one hand people say the slowness of turn based gaming will not work with a modern audience while on the other hand console gamers are perfectly willing to replay the same section over and over until they get it right.

Or am I just really crap with the controller?

 

[Dracon M'Alkir]

I find it odd that on one hand people say the slowness of turn based gaming will not work with a modern audience while on the other hand console gamers are perfectly willing to replay the same section over and over until they get it right.

Or am I just really crap with the controller?

Console gamers lack patience. Take for example the newest Microsuck release for Vista - Halo 2. They actually allow the game to be played directly from disc while installing for people who are unable to wait five minutes.

It's not that they cannot do something over and over until they get it right, it's that they lack the attention span or patience to play a turn based game without a concrete ending or reward for them each time they successfully perform something.

Lack of instantaneous gratification = bored console gamer.

Imagine you had to create games for ADD kids, and they weren't allowed to take medication. That pretty much rules out turn based games, period. They can't play chess, let alone something like a GURPS game.

 

[Sorrow]

That sounds like some kind of horror, Dark Legacy. I refuse to believe that human race has degenerated so much.

 

[Dracon M'Alkir]

That sounds like some kind of horror, Dark Legacy. I refuse to believe that human race has degenerated so much.

There's overwhelming evidence for what I've stated above, but if you want a quick example (at-a-glance);

Compare Daggerfall to Morrowind, to Oblivion.

How about movies from the 1990s, and movies now?

4chan, Vista, G4TV, Bethesda Forums, Halo 2 discussions over Live, AOL chatrooms, etc. Just to name a few.

I don't want to delve into this too deeply, but especially here, on the Internet, there's the greatest collection of evidence - an entire flood of it. You try to run from it and it catches up to you.

We as Fallout fans, are actually a dying breed of gamer. There's very few of us left, and we struggle to survive, banding together; such as in this community. Soon enough, there will be none of us left..

 

[Tannhauser]

I find it odd that on one hand people say the slowness of turn based gaming will not work with a modern audience while on the other hand console gamers are perfectly willing to replay the same section over and over until they get it right.

You know, I wonder how well Disgaea sold?

 

[aegis]

We as Fallout fans, are actually a dying breed of gamer. There's very few of us left, and we struggle to survive, banding together; such as in this community. Soon enough, there will be none of us left..

Its just possible that Fallout 3 will be Turn-Based. Yes, the logic here is that Final Fantasy 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,(whatever the current # is) being mostly TB combat (actually I have no idea past 8...) have sold bucket loads worth of games.

if you're reffering to TB...

but i don't think the market that bought FF is the same audiance who is targeting for PC RPG...so legacy could be right

 

[The Horseman]

Some ways to improve a TB combat engine:

Include Stances (Standing, Kneeling / Crouch, Isosceles, Prone)

Ability to use terrain as cover and to destroy/ignite/otherwise flush from cover. To hit modifiers for soft and hard cover a-la Company of Heroes.

Per-Side phased movement similar to JA2 or Laser Squad Nemesis. Include interrupts/overwatch which will use unused action points to fire at a previously unseen target.

Perspective should be Isometric, but I really liked the VB demo ability to move the camera around. A locked camera causes too many problems with building/terrain obstructions. Heck, I would even be open to allow zoom all the way down to 3rd over-the-shoulder or first person. I know I always enjoyed tabletop gaming moments where if I got down at the same level of my mini, I could just see the baddies head over a brick wall, so I take a shot and hit, emptying his brain pan. Just don't force me into FP all the time. If anything is too limiting, it's FPP.

Action oriented combat moves would be cool. Turn based means you're sometimes running out of AP in the middle of diving to the ground or tossing a grenade or what have you. Don't disallow the movement if there aren't enough AP, just freeze the character in mid action. There could be some cool moments with that - Imagine your opponent caught in the middle of his phase diving through the air. He's suspended in our eye, even though time is still flowing. Our sniper's eye allows us to catch him in mid air and drop a round in center mass. This would give you a reason to raise Small Guns over 150%.

In line with the above, penalties for hitting moving targets, bonuses for steadying your aim (rclick your shot to add AP to it for steadying).

Just a few things off the top of my head that would improve/update a turn based system.


I've had conversations with my wife's younger brother that make me sad for the future of gaming. We are indeed a dying breed. Kids these days are raised on MTV and soundbytes and five to ten minute blips of content. Look at what Adult Swim is doing with some of its new offerings like Robot Chicken and Metalocalypse. My brother in law loves these shows, but they're fifteen minutes with a commercial break in the middle, so maybe 10 minutes of actual content. This is where the marketing sweet spot is, 18-24 (he's 19).

 

[Briosafreak]

In a perfect world I would be subscribing to everything Horseman says, and would be lobbying for those things to appear, but it's probably too late now.

 

[Brother None]

Wow, why the sudden depression, Brio my man?

 

[Autoduel76]

Imagine you had to create games for ADD kids, and they weren't allowed to take medication. That pretty much rules out turn based games, period. They can't play chess, let alone something like a GURPS game.

While many Western, console, RPG developers have been doing less turn-based combat in recent years, your argument that this is the console market, using anecdotal evidence of 2 games, isn't very strong.


There are lots of, popular, turn based console games. Final Fantasy Tactics, Advance Wars, Front Mission, Ogre Battle, Wild Arms, Lunar, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Xenosaga, Dragon Quest, Suikoden, Digital Devil Saga, Persona, Shadow Hearts, Skeis of Arcadia, Fire Emblem, Grandia...

Turn based might not have the mass market apeal of Madden Football, or Halo, on a console, but then turn based didn't have the mass-market appeal of Doom, or Diablo, for PC users either.

But, there are tons of popular turn based console games, and always have been. At least as much as PC, if not more, in terms of sheer numbers.

 

[Dracon M'Alkir]

While many Western, console, RPG developers have been doing less turn-based combat in recent years, your argument that this is the console market, using anecdotal evidence of 2 games, isn't very strong.


There are lots of, popular, turn based console games. Final Fantasy Tactics, Advance Wars, Front Mission, Ogre Battle, Wild Arms, Lunar, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Xenosaga, Dragon Quest, Suikoden, Digital Devil Saga, Persona, Shadow Hearts, Skeis of Arcadia, Fire Emblem, Grandia...

Turn based might not have the mass market apeal of Madden Football, or Halo, on a console, but then turn based didn't have the mass-market appeal of Doom, or Diablo, for PC users either.

But, there are tons of popular turn based console games, and always have been. At least as much as PC, if not more, in terms of sheer numbers.

None of the games you have mentioned are anywhere near close to GURPS or D20, and ESPECIALLY not open-ended like Fallout is.

Try Neverwinter Nights on a console and see what happens.

 

[Sorrow]

There's overwhelming evidence for what I've stated above, but if you want a quick example (at-a-glance);

Compare Daggerfall to Morrowind, to Oblivion.

How about movies from the 1990s, and movies now?

Damn.
It seems to be something that causes humanity to become intellectually weaker with every year. I don't know what it is, but...
It really sucks.

Anyway, I started playing Ultima IV a few days ago and I was suprised when the game actually asked me to read the manual. I was a bit put off by this, because I got used to games that can be played right away, but I decided to read it. It took me about twenty minutes. It got me wonder how much making everything easy makes people weaker to the point where all they can do is consumption...

We as Fallout fans, are actually a dying breed of gamer. There's very few of us left, and we struggle to survive, banding together; such as in this community. Soon enough, there will be none of us left..

Well, there has to be a way to expand and promote our way of gaming.

 

[Dracon M'Alkir]

Well, there has to be a way to expand and promote our way of gaming.

Your avatar seems to be a great way to do so.

"DO YOU LIKE FALLOUT!?"

"Yes, yes! I do! Just don't shoot me! "

 

[Brother None]

Well, there has to be a way to expand and promote our way of gaming.

It'd help if there was a developer willing to make and publish a quality game of our type, since that'd introduce the playstyle to a large group of gamers that are unfamiliar with it.

Our relative numbers are declining because the other side's numbers are expanding. Our *absolute* numbers would be expanding if anyone made us of the market, I have no doubt of that.

 

[Autoduel76]

None of the games you have mentioned are anywhere near close to GURPS or D20, and ESPECIALLY not open-ended like Fallout is.

That pretty much rules out turn based games, period.

Consistency is key to an argument.

Besides, the turn-based combat isn't really the issue, at all, for many of those games that makes them less complex than Fallout.

Many tactical console games have combat that is as complex as Fallout's. Its the other elements of the game that would seperate Fallout from them.

 

[Dracon M'Alkir]

None of the games you have mentioned are anywhere near close to GURPS or D20, and ESPECIALLY not open-ended like Fallout is.

That pretty much rules out turn based games, period.

Consistency is key to an argument.

No, it does not make my argument void. How much thought do those turn based games require? Final Fantasy games are a joke if you're making such a heavy claim that they are genuine turn based games. I'm speaking of old fashioned PnP style TB games, as you originally knew I was speaking of. It's not like I don't realize that the Final Fantasy series has sold copies out of the wazoo.

Attack (select)
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Escape

Rinse, repeat style of World of Warcraft.

The turn based games you speak of are simply repetitive and DO reward the player continously after he/she accomplishes one singular action. Do you ever have a choice in an FF game? No. If you avoid battles, you become weak and can't advance in the linear storyline. You have to do everything accordingly to plan or you can't finish the game. Using just two examples is also not a flawed argument, there's just so many examples of the downgradement on console games that it would take far too much time to bother typing all of it out. But yeah, you're hurt me a bit with that, if that's what you were aiming for.

 

[Autoduel76]

the Final Fantasy series has sold copies out of the wazoo.

Attack (select)
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Again, that's just one example. Like I said above, many of the tactical combat games have combat that is as complex as Fallout.

Final Fantasy tactics & Tactics advance, for example, has the equivilent of sequence, different move distances based on speed, equipment, level and skills, % chances to hit based on distance, The option of changing equipment or spells, for a cost of action points during turns...It has just as much as Fallout, in terms of combat.

You are looking strictly at Squre/Enix type RPGs that have combat derived from the old Bard's Tale, Wizardry, Might and Magic mold of (a)ttack (d)efend (c)ast (r)un, and trying to claim that they are the only way turn based combat is done on a console.

It's just not the case. There are lots of turn based games with more complex strategy than that on consoles, as well. Advance Wars, Front mission...It's not just Final Fantasy.

 

[Dracon M'Alkir]

the Final Fantasy series has sold copies out of the wazoo.

Attack (select)
Magic
Item
Escape

.

Again, that's just one example. Like I said above, many of the tactical combat games have combat that is as complex as Fallout.

Final Fantasy tactics & Tactics advance, for example, has the equivilent of sequence, different move distances based on speed, equipment, level and skills, % chances to hit based on distance, The option of changing equipment or spells, for a cost of action points during turns...It has just as much as Fallout, in terms of combat.

You are looking strictly at Squre/Enix type RPGs that have combat derived from the old Bard's Tale, Wizardry, Might and Magic mold of (a)ttack (d)efend (c)ast (r)un, and trying to claim that they are the only way turn based combat is done on a console.

It's just not the case. There are lots of turn based games with more complex strategy than that on consoles, as well. Advance Wars, Front mission...It's not just Final Fantasy.

I see the word 'advance' being used alot. That's a handheld, not a console. (Gameboy Advance)

I never said that turn-based wouldn't work on handhelds.

Console (noun): console (plural consoles)
A cabinet designed to stand on the floor.
A cabinet that controls, instruments, and displays are mounted upon.
The keyboard and screen of a computer.
A storage tray or container mounted between the seats of an automobile.
» A video game console, especially as opposed to a handheld.

 

[Autoduel76]

I see the word 'advance' being used alot. That's a handheld, not a console. (Gameboy Advance)

I never said that turn-based wouldn't work on handhelds.

[/i]

Final Fantasy Tactics combat (Console only) works the same as Tactics Advance's combat and the Front mission, and Tactics Ogre games are console only as well.

 

[Dracon M'Alkir]

I see the word 'advance' being used alot. That's a handheld, not a console. (Gameboy Advance)

I never said that turn-based wouldn't work on handhelds.

[/i]

Final Fantasy Tactics combat (Console only) works the same as Tactics Advance's combat and the Front mission, and Tactics Ogre games are console only as well.

Oh man, that's so not Square Enix crap. You're totally right.