Pete Hines on negativity

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by Tannhauser, Aug 31, 2008.

  1. PaladinHeart

    PaladinHeart Mildly Dipped

    563
    Jan 20, 2004
    Actually Arcanum felt more like a really bad Ultima game to me than it did Fallout. Just like Fallout 3 is gonna seem more like Oblivion. It's too bad they had to put in the RTwP in Arcanum. I might could have actually played it otherwise.
     
  2. Aero

    Aero First time out of the vault

    70
    May 7, 2008
    all righty then

    I guess I must just have a better ability to adapt to changes. And in saying that I am in no way disregarding anyone else who feels differently. I have grown up playing many different Series. I do tend to stick to game franchises as it adds a sort of continuity to my gaming through out the years.

    I do appreciate that you responded to my earlyer queries and understand your not wanting to respond to something you have probably responded MANY MANY times in the past.

    beverageleverage wrote:
    Yes the story. The characters. The Atmosphere. The Humor. Besides being repetitive yes the official videos are not the best. They are running them all with Developer Buffs, cheats, kits....What ever you want to call them...Set on. Once I have it in my hands in Oct I will gladly come back and eat my words if its still such a shit sandwitch. I've seen Tons of demos however and most All companies run a modified version of there games during demos to keep the action fast paced during timed demos.

    Anyways off to spend time with the family.
     
  3. Simeon

    Simeon First time out of the vault

    82
    Oct 7, 2007
    Ok, I'm going to branch off a teeny bit and comment on the eurogamer thing that was posted.

    If fallout 3 ends up doing more poorly than expected due to the wooden animation, low res textures, etc
    I don't think you'd find a happier person than me as the downfall of the game could be directly correlated with switching away from isometric viewpoint.
    It seems to be a flaw that a lot of people are noticing, and the kind of thing that could potentially turn off a lot of the xbox kiddies that bethesda seems to be furiously trying to market the game toward.

    -T
     
  4. PaladinHeart

    PaladinHeart Mildly Dipped

    563
    Jan 20, 2004
    Yeah. It seems funny now that they're attempting to attract a more action oriented audience, people are noticing the wooden movements, textures, etc.. that someone more interested in the actual gameplay might not mind so much.

    Oblivion's visuals were a huge improvement over Morrowind, and now Fallout 3's visuals are better than Oblivion's, but they really should work on the character movements and animations some more. Especially when you're talking to someone. It's weird when they just sit there and stare at you while their body is locked into place.
     
  5. beverageleverage

    beverageleverage It Wandered In From the Wastes

    113
    May 28, 2008
    Re: all righty then

    After watching the preview videos I can see that bethesda is really doing those justice :roll:
     
  6. Cow

    Cow First time out of the vault

    78
    Aug 23, 2008
    It was mentioned in a different topic but the games Bethesda makes are based around one core mechanic; you as the player in a world that isn't your own. Traditionally, PnP games focus on you emulating what a character would do in a world based on his skills and personality.

    You're not roleplaying in The Elder Scrolls so much as you are being that role. Your character can't influence the actions of others which is a major component of PnP games. I'm not going to say one style is better than the other because I like both but it's important to note that they are two completely different styles. I don't think any game has come close to emulating the feel of actually playing at a table but games like Arcanum have at least come close.

    The 1,000+ people in th theater were impressed by the graphics and the textures are hi-res; the videos don't really do it justice. The animation is stiff and expressionless but I think the majority of Fallout 3 fans are Morrowind fans that were disappointed with Oblivion. I'm a Fallout fan and I still consider myself to be one of the Morrowind supporters.
     
  7. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    The thing with fans.
    Most of the people who are fans of Springsteen's Born in the USA think that it's a patriotic, flag-waving, 'proud to be American' anthem of pride. But they misinterpret the purpose of the song.
    If one actually listens to the lyrics for the song, it's not actually a Ronald Reagan campaign ad, to the contrary, it's a stinging indictment of America's mistreatment of Viet Nam vets. But the majority of the song's fans never bothered to notice.

    Someone can be a fan of "Pip Boy", Bloody Mess and some non-exclusive PA elements, all the while oblivious to the developers intentions of emulating PnP RPGs. But being unaware of the developer's intentions doesn't diminish the the developer's intentions.

    I don't think you can impugn the authority that sites like NMA, DaC, and RPG-Codex have on the subject of Fallout.
    They've been covering Fallout for 10 long years. They were all there long before the sacking of BIS, the postponing of FO3, the entire FOBOS fiasco, the forced closure of the Interplay boards, the cancelling of VanBuren, and on and on. Bethesda's only been a part of this thing for a few scant years now, so for people's who's interest in Fallout started with their allegience to Oblivion, rather than having slogged through the previously mentioned events. Well, I would question their perspective and knowledge of the subject.

    NMA doesn't need to position itself as anything, it was here long before Bethesda bought it's way on the scene.
     
  8. syllogz

    syllogz Still Mildly Glowing

    296
    Jun 16, 2007
    So, Xenophile, why don't you just go and try to play some PnP for a change?

    Nudge-nudge Knowwhatimean? Nudge-nudge
     
  9. ookami

    ookami It Wandered In From the Wastes

    149
    Sep 13, 2004
    I do have to correct you there.
    TES I designer's notes.
    But, of course, the people who had that vision (or much vision to speak of) are obviously gone from Bethesda now.
    Yeah, if you consider the gradual stripping out of RPG elements and over-simplifying of gameplay to be 'advancement'. I know, I know, it's called 'streamlining' apparently. Hey, you can slice the arms and legs off a person and call it 'streamlining' and 'simplifying', but I doubt that will help them much. I consider it to be the same with RPGs.
     
  10. Xenophile

    Xenophile It Wandered In From the Wastes

    159
    Oct 18, 2007
    haha... yeah.. I grew up on Car Wars, Battletech, Palladium games, GURPS and Warhammer 40K. Even a bit of D&D thrown in. Though I tended to enjoy the tactical games more than the heavy RPG games. (Yes I see the irony here.)

    What I was getting at is even the quote that BN pulled out of the interview was taken out of context in my opinion.

    The question asked was "Give us an idea of the creative process involved in converting the game from pen and paper to a computer game."

    So the answer "We emulated the pen and paper game" is in response to that. Of course they tried to emulate it as close as possible because of the original premise being an actual electronic version of GURPS that they could use as a foundation for many diverse adventures similar to what was tried with the "Worlds of Ultima". By the time that original goal had fallen to the side when the licensing deal fell apart it had obviously colored many of the original choices made.

    For example Feargus "If you want to exactly represent GURPs, D&D or most other PnP RPGs then you have to go turn based, which was the decision for Fallout when it was GURPs."

    I do think it was important and steered alot of the design of "Vault 13: A GURPS Adventure", but as "Fallout" I think taking the fiction and the tenets of the experience, but not the exact mechanics are perfectly sound way to create a sequel. So my point is the project began as a conversion of GURPS, but ended up something more.

    Even with the change to the gameplay mechanics, Fallout 3 still follows most of the same "rules" as the originals, but it is less faithfull to the rules on the combat side. Those rules still remain in affect (though I am not a fan of skill-based damage). Your character skills still affect combat. Yes if you run and gun then player reflexive skill (in additon to the original tactical skill) now play into combat. The orignal non-combat skills still seem to be in much of their original form as to how they affect things (Though I do understand the mini-games mess with that a bit allowing player skill to compensate for lower character skill).

    If however the game had been released as "Fallout: A GURPS Adventure" then you have tied the game and the franchise to a particular platform and in my opinion you would have a harder time seperating the two.

    EDIT:

    Those original "TES I" designer notes point to what I was saying before..

    "TES I" Designers tried to capture the "Tabletop Experience" without a strict emulation of a pen and paper ruleset. It's just a different route to attempt to end up at the same result.
     
  11. JESUS

    JESUS It Wandered In From the Wastes

    178
    Aug 19, 2008
    i read all 4 pages of this thread and you know what bottered me the most?

    People saying things like "Fallout 3 fans". How the hell can you be a fan of something that´s not even released yet? How the hell can people be a fan of a game that doesn´t have a demo ?

    Not only that how can people trust Bethesda so much as to defend their design options after the mess they did lying TO YOU, their fans, about Oblivion RAI?

    Bethesda lies to you before releasing Oblivion, and now with Fallout 3 they are more dodgy then ever.

    All "demos" in shows are altered to the point that you cannot tell the pace of leveling up, you cannot confirm if that gun is really there at your feet to fight the Behemoth, you cannot confirm how he uses his skills because all are altered for that particular demo.

    It´s a joke that these demos instead of clearing things up, are being used as excuses for the design options.

    " You cannot say that fight was easy with VATS, his stats and skills were buffed up for the demo?"

    Holy Crap, that´s PR. Getting people to be fans of a game they don´t even know how it will turn out.

    Edit: The best "argument" is: I will buy the game and then judge if it is good. A win win situation.
     
  12. Simeon

    Simeon First time out of the vault

    82
    Oct 7, 2007
    I don't like that argument.
    Why would I waste money on FO3 if I think it's crap?
    I vote with my wallet.
    Just this week news came out that comcast will be instituting a 250GB per month bandwidth cap.
    So what do I do? Cancel my service.
    If I don't vote with my wallet, things will just keep getting shittier because people are reinforcing the developers by telling them that what they released is acceptable by paying them.

    Getting ahold of the game to try it by other means though..
     
  13. JESUS

    JESUS It Wandered In From the Wastes

    178
    Aug 19, 2008
    That´s not my argument it´s the Fallout 3 fans one.

    The point is if Bethesda don´t give you enough information to buy their game, and the only info that comes out is altered so you cannot judge properly, the only way you can know if it´s good is with your wallet. The win win situation is for BS not us.

    Edit: The thing is their PR machine pretty much owns the major gaming news, so only the more wise that try to inform themselves after the release can find true info about the flaws in their game, and decide if it´s worth their money.

    The majority of the fans buy at day 1, that´s too much trust in a dodgy lying company.
     
  14. Simeon

    Simeon First time out of the vault

    82
    Oct 7, 2007
    oh, ok.
    sorry for the misunderstanding, in that case I completely agree with you.
     
  15. Anani Masu

    Anani Masu Still Mildly Glowing

    226
    May 16, 2008
    I love how Bethesda morphs into some giant standard oil esque monster who owns all the gaming press here. I suppose small indie houses like Sony or Ubisoft just can't scrape the cash together to buy a good review score.

    Also you are the only person to say anything about "fallout 3 fans" in this entire thread.
     
  16. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    This is why Brother None is my favorite person EVER! You could say anything and no matter what He is gonna turn it around and rip it half and make it look so goofy what was just said you wonder how he did it.

    He could make why the Chicken Crossed the road look stupid.(I ask now for him to do that...It would rock so much)

    Now I myself won't argue what Is Fallout?*Ponders in toga*I don't have better things to do but I just won't do it.
     
  17. UncannyGarlic

    UncannyGarlic Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 6, 2008
    You seem to think that just because a game doesn't use a system created for PnP, it can't use a system built on the same principles. SPECIAL is not GURPS but it is a system ment to emulate the PnP experience which, I remind you, is not restricted to a single system.
     
  18. Xenophile

    Xenophile It Wandered In From the Wastes

    159
    Oct 18, 2007
    True.. and I think if they dropped SPECIAL altogether is wouldn't be as valid an arguement. SPECIAL is still there and it still affects combat (and non-combat). Now, the mechanics have changed (drasticly in run and gun). But they are still the foundation on which the caracter abilities are based. I totally understand the arguement about player skill affecting outcome, but that players effectiveness even in run/gun is affected by character skills/attributes.

    Technically if the game were based on GURPS, they still could have "adapted" the rules to system similar to what they did with SPECIAL for Fallout 3 and it would have been fine, it really wouldn't be the first time it's been done. I just think that there is a difference in emphasis between a licensed system and a internally developed system, mostly because there is more pressure to retain a certain level of parity between the game mechanics and whatever the current ruleset is in the P&P world. Like what you see in D&D licensed games. Character creation and many game elements have changed dramaticly over the years as the P&P rules changed and evolved.. but the games did so to retain a level of parity between implimentation and the current rules, not usually for gameplay reasons specific to the platform.
     
  19. EnglishMuffin

    EnglishMuffin Still Mildly Glowing

    243
    Jul 21, 2008
    CHA-CHING CHA-CHING!!!

    CHOO CHOO!!!
     
  20. MrSambuka

    MrSambuka First time out of the vault

    36
    May 11, 2007
    Re: all righty then

    LOL