physiology 2- ghouls

welsh

Junkmaster
This is for all the Fallout experts out there-

Ok, I admit I'm curious about the ghouls. This is a carry over from deathclaw, but I think the story on ghouls is a little more confused.

I can understand the glowing ones are radiation emitting, but what's the deal with the tree growing out of harold's head in FO 2? As I recall even Harold didn't understand why he became a ghoul?

Why are some ghouls in Necropolis just violent, some are smart, and others more passive?

Why do ghouls seem to live a long time?

Also I noticed with Lenny that ghouls also can heal very fast? True? if so why?

Also in keeping with the 1950s pulp vision of Fallout, what do you think were the sources of inspiration for Fallout's ghouls?
 
I really don't think any of these actually matter. Radiation in Fallout is an unpredictable thing, and I think, that ghouls have had some rather bad experiences or just hate smoothies enviously, and remember they only attack when your a couple of hexes away.
 
First, Harold is not really a ghoul, or so it was stated.

Anyway, I always envisioned the ghouls as carrion eaters.
Green zombies that eat human flesh... Not completly unintelegent, but still zombies.
 
I think you're partially right, Dan. Some I think, would eat human flesh, but they wouldn't seek it out as a main source of food. Plus some would consider themselves above that, and still human enough to find it repulsive. When I think ghouls, I don't think zombies. I think tired, sacks of old failing organs covered in green beef-jerky. But Harold makes em all look cool.
 
ghoul diets

Actually, despite the regular jokes, no where in the game is it indicated that ghouls eat humans.

It seems that the radiation prolongs their lives, that they sleep in a hibernation type resting period, that they are relatively immune to radiation, and generally suffer discrimination.

But this builds on the images of both Fallout1 and Fallout2.
 
Well I don't know about carrion eater. A quest in Broken Hills is to get a cat's paw magazine for an old ghoul. Proof, that he still finds humans sexy. His mind hasn't changed as a result, and he is still a human.
 
here's my theory. ghouls are humans who were, like all creatures, exposed to small concetrations of FEV in years after the nuclear war. however, extreme radiaton levels have caused the FEV to alter DNA of these humans incorrectly. in their case, the forced evolution to quad-helix DNA incomplete, which is why many of the cells were destroyed and consequentially severe damage to tissue was dealt. muscle tissue was impacted most, which is why ghouls are weaker than humans. all haploid cells were destroyed by FEV, which is why ghouls are sterile. due to small concentration of FEV in the atmosphere, it didn't significantly affect the nervous system, which is why ghouls have intellectual capabilities of normal humans. most of the ghoul cells that weren't destroyed by effects of FEV have gained increased regenerational abilities, so ghouls heal faster and are generally more endurant and resistant than normal humans. with time they restored great deal of their muscle mass, so many ghouls are now quite strong, but their skin was completely burnt by radiation and it couldn't regenerate. the regenerative abilities give them prolonged life, but that's far from virtual immortality granted to most powerful and successful supermutants. it is obvious that ghouls are in fact super-mutants who didn't turn out very super. "dumb" supermutants contained a certain level of radiation in their bodies, which is why some of their tissues, particularly the sensitive and complex neural tissue, failed to evolve properly after exposure to FEV. ghouls, on the other hand, were exposed to much greater radiation levels and much smaller FEV concentrations than Master-made supermutants, so they the virus failed to evolve them properly all together, leaving some tissues intact, others terribly impaired and only some successfully transformed to quad-helix DNA and therefore with "useful" properties such as regeneration and immunity to retroviruses and similar agents which work by changing the DNA of the infected cell.

there, i hope my theory sounds acceptable. i had to invent a lot of bullshit, but now it makes more sense (for me, at least) than explanations offered by Fallout Bible. flame me if you like, but i'm stickin' with this one :P :lol:

i still haven't found a good explanation for what happened to Harold. if he fell into an FEV vat, then he must have been exposed to extreme FEV concentration. my theory is that he was still conscious enough to pull himself out of the vat and flee the base. then he most likely passed out in the desert, probably due to effects of FEV. FEV also affected his memory, which is why he doesn't remember climbing out of the vat and leaving the base. because he was only exposed to FEV briefly and was already badly radiated after many years spent in the wasteland, he didn't evolve properly and instead became a ghoul. as for his skin, the description in Gecko says he is a "particularly leathery ghoul". this confirms one of my assumptions: FEV doesn't cause loss of skin - ghouls lost their skin when they were human, due to radiation. reason why Harold's skin is in such bad state are horrible sunburns. remember, Harold spent several days lying helpless and motionless under the hot desert sun before he was rescued by a caravan and brought back to Hub. any dermathologist will tell you that burns caused by sun roasting you for several days at 45 degrees Celzius cannot heal...ever.
 
theory

Interesting idea. But I didn't think that the ghouls had much to do with the FEV virus, just the radiation.

However, maybe I'm wrong. What was the story with the ghoul that you find in the basement of the religious group in the Boneyard?
 
Well, Ratty's theory actually does make ghouls more likely.

As I said before, it's very unlikely for nuclear war to cause different life forms, like ghouls, to evolve.

Damn, just read my previous post on the subject.

And the ghoul in the basement was prolly tied to the "find the traitor" quest, that was not included because they didn't have the time.
 
Re: theory

welsh said:
Interesting idea. But I didn't think that the ghouls had much to do with the FEV virus, just the radiation.
Fallout Bible actually mentions that small concentrations of FEV in the atmosphere caused mutations of scorpions, ants, brahmin, flesh-eating plants and other creatures. i'm not sure, but i think it also mentions ghouls. before that, i always thought ghouls were actually humans screwed up by radiations. that seemed like an acceptable explanation for slow and weak ghouls in Fallout 1. however, Fallout 2 made things more complicated by featuring strong, endurant ghouls who live long and heal quickly. exposure to radiation usually causes shorter lifespan and mutations induced by radiation have like 0.0001% likelihood of producing even a single individual with prolonged life and increased endurance and general resistance. even if such a stable mutation should occur, it is by all means impossible for such a ghoul to reproduce and create thousands of offspring in matter of years, as it happened in Fallout. that's why i prefer the more "realistic" FEV theory.
 
Re: FEV- the bible

welsh said:
You are wise oh Ratty. I have checked the bible and doubt you no more.
go in peace, my child. make sure you visit Temple of Great Ratty and make a donation at Ratty Shrine. :lol:
 
Ratty said:
go in peace, my child. make sure you visit Temple of Great Ratty and make a donation at Ratty Shrine.

Would a fuzzy painting and some radscorpion limbs be appropriate donations? :)
 
DarkShade1989 said:
Ratty said:
go in peace, my child. make sure you visit Temple of Great Ratty and make a donation at Ratty Shrine.

Would a fuzzy painting and some radscorpion limbs be appropriate donations? :)
ummm...i dunno...awww, ok! i was kinda hoping for GeForceFX 5900, but...never mind. :lol:
 
Instead of me asking for a Temple of Ozrat and you asking for a Temple of Great Ratty, why don't we merge together and demand a Temple of Holy Rats to help us to bask in glory? I'll get the fuzzy painting to roll around in and you can surgically implant the radscorpion claws into your arms. What do you say, my fellow Croatian rodent?

Oh wait, this is a ghoul thread. Please continue your enlightening comments about Harold and his freakiness. I've heard that he was in FOT. How/why did that happen?
 
a splendid idea! but NO radscorpion limbs. oh, and we get to have statues of Karl Marx and Lenin out front. :lol: glory to the rats!
 
Fallout 2 made things more complicated by featuring strong, endurant ghouls who live long and heal quickly

I believe the long lifespan was already introduced in Fallout 1 with Harold's story. If I'm not mistaken, he was already well over a hundred years old at the time. But I digress.

As for the effect of the FEV...that's hard to say. I've never been entirely clear on exactly what the FEV does. Question is: does it merely make things bigger and stronger? or does it do as the name suggests and force rapid adaptation to the environment?
If the latter is true, that makes the effects on the ghouls make more sense. The super mutants were subjected to massive amounts of FEV while they were in the wasteland; post-war.
Now if the ghouls were subjected to smaller amounts during the time right after the bombs fell, it may have had a different effect. They may simply be the people who were dying of radiation poisoning. If the FEV forced an adaptation at that time, the greatest threat to their survival would have been radiation. Their bodies would have to adjust to the radiation levels, or they would die. So the ones that lived would have to have evolved increased regenerative abilities and resistance to radiation. Long lifespan would just be a byproduct of increased regenerative abilities, because that's directly linked to aging. Whe you grow older, your bodies ability to heal itself subsides, but if you regenerate rapidly, you will age much slower.

That kind of turned into a theory. Ahh well.
 
FEV doesn't cause simple adaptation to the environment. word "evolutionary" in "FEV" isn't used in traditional Darwinian meaning, i.e. that creatures will adapt to the environment they live in. FEV is a retrovirus which replicates an additional DNA molecule which connects with the existing DNA molecule of the infected cell and upgrades it into a so called quad-helix, as opposed to double helix which all creatures have. scientists believe quad-helix structure is the next and greatest step in evolution of Earth's life. that's why the virus is called "evolutionary". upgraded cells are much less subject to damages caused by outside agents, and these damages can be quickly and efficiently repaired. these agents include radiation, microorganisms, toxines etc. so you see, FEV doesn't simply cause the evolved subject to quickly adapt to the environment he is living him. instead it grants him benefits of the extremely stable quad helix structure, which means high resistance to any outside agent which might threaten the cell. according to your theory, ghouls have adapted to radiation because they were exposed to it in time of infection. it sugggests that exposure to a different kind of agent that wasn't present at time of infection would be dangerous or lethal for them, as they haven't developed any resistance to it. in my view, a creature evolved by FEV will automatically gain resistance to all agents, no matter when and if they ever encountered them. this resistance is a simple and natural consequence of quad helix, of its stability and regenerating ability, just as it is natural for a normal living cell not to dissolve in contact with, for example, water.
 
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