Presidential debates

welsh

welsh

Junkmaster
Anyone see it? What were your thoughts?

I thought Kerry came out ahead of Bush, and Bush looked a bit ridiculous and flustered near the end. "It's hard work!"

Watching Bush made me think of Airplane "Looks like I picked a bad day to quit drinking!" "Looks like a bad day to quit cocaine!"

But he did get his message out.

Kerry should have done better. This is supposed to be Bush's best issue and Kerry could have smashed him. So I am not sure who really won.
 
I completely agree. I actually thought he looked...almost....PRESIDENTIAL!!

Bush will win and I was right, the double whammy of the anniversary of 9/11 and the RNC will coast him to victory, even if Kerry does make a comeback.
 
Not sure CCR- Bush had a lead and I think he's losing it. If Bush can't look good on his strongest issue, I don't think he can pull it out for the election.

The big hits against Bush have yet to come. The attacks on Kerry can only go to his voting record- but Kerry has done a pretty good job as Congressional watchdog even if his voting record isn't good.

The Kerry bit on working with allies was a bit much. What he should have said is that as a leader, one has to marshal ones power and lead one's allies, not alienate them. Going it alone is expense.

Also it is easy to say "bring it on" when you're not paying the price.

Bush needs to get off the Flip-Flop argument fast. If Bush is saying we don't need allies, and I'm like Reagan, than what he said at the debate will hurt. Since when have we relied on China for our national security? And this is "going it alone?'. Look to China to safeguard the US- that's not what Ronald Reagan would have done.
 
Not sure CCR- Bush had a lead and I think he's losing it. If Bush can't look good on his strongest issue, I don't think he can pull it out for the election.
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Darth Rove is already working on containment. You're acting like this is a total collapse of Bush's forward motion; it is'nt. Most polls are indicating that Kerry certainly won, but it's not swaying anybody.

The big hits against Bush have yet to come. The attacks on Kerry can only go to his voting record- but Kerry has done a pretty good job as Congressional watchdog even if his voting record isn't good.
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Doubtful. Big hits? Domestic policy of Bush is a bit more conservative then I would want it, but Kerry is pretty far to the left. I don't think Bush will win it, but again, it would have to be pretty crushing to take the 11-8% Lead.

The Kerry bit on working with allies was a bit much. What he should have said is that as a leader, one has to marshal ones power and lead one's allies, not alienate them. Going it alone is expense.
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Bull-fucking-shit. Kerry might be good at getting a few nations to donate a few dollars, but he's done nothing but ridicule current helping nations. If we really need help in Iraq, and we do, France & Fuckbuddies ain't gonna supply it, look towards Poland, the UK and Australia.

Bush needs to get off the Flip-Flop argument fast. If Bush is saying we don't need allies, and I'm like Reagan, than what he said at the debate will hurt. Since when have we relied on China for our national security? And this is "going it alone?'. Look to China to safeguard the US- that's not what Ronald Reagan would have done.
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I actually really liked that position, Kerry's Clinton Worked ideas where total lbullocks. I don't like strengthening China, but they have more to loose from NK then we do, for when NK goes apeshit it's going to hit Korea and Japan, both of whom have billions invested in China, and American companies will do the smart thing and pull out of that hellhole.

You're right about the flipflop issue, he came off as a bully.
 
Darth Rove has a good strategy- attack the enemy where he is strongest. This is what Kerry needs to keep doing.

The campaign is going to be about Iraq. THe facts on the ground are that we are losing control of IRaq and it migth become a civil war. We are also loosing control in Afghanistan.

The Bush folks are saying "but they can vote! It's a democracy?" Not if only a portion of the population can vote, and an election isn't very good if the state can't keep the Muslim whackos from rolling democracy back and making it an Islamic state.

I can't believe Kerry missed the punch line that we've had more terrorist attacks since 9-11 than before, and that what Bush is doing is actually supporting the growth of terrorist organizations. Even if Al Qaeda has been hurt - which I doubt- what we are seeing is the growth of a second and third generation Al Qaeda cells as well as the growing legitimacy of Al Qaeda as a movement.

That's a defeat.

And Bush's missile defense- is only at most 20% effective and untested. If I was Japan I wouldn't be holding my breath on that defense.

So there was a lot that Kerry could have hurt Bush on. I suspect these will come up before the election.

One thing that Kerry was dead on- 9 out of 10 army divisions are in some way commited to Iraq, and we can't respond to other problems. If something were to happen in Korea we'd have to go to the draft- we just don't have the people.

Which is why Bush has to turn to China to safeguard the US interest in Asia.

ANd that's a problem- how the hell can you trust the CHinese on this? These are the same guys who are threatening to cut off Japan from the Middle East by taking over the South China Sea. These are the same folks who we hope won't attack Taiwan and who we need to deploy aircraft carriers to defend against.

SOme years ago the Chinese asked us would we be willing to give up Los Angeles for Taiwan. When that issue was raised Clinton sent nuclear armed aircraft carriers to Taiwan.

But under Bush the question becomes would we be willing to give up Taiwan for North Korea. And why? Because we are overly committed in Iraq.

That's the problem- the guy is squandering our strength.
 
This is puzzling. I actually thought the debates came out fairly even, but all the news polls are showing that it's heavily edwards over cheney.

COuld this be that there are a lot of unpolled voters? Or is it that the democratic voters are on the web a lot more?
 
I figure most people online are left-leaning...not to say right-wingers are stupid, but left-wingers have traditionally valued education much more than they do.

Oh yes and Kerry ABSOLUTELY has to bring up the fact that Al-Quida enlistment has increased to its highest point since the war in Iraq.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
welsh said:
This is puzzling. I actually thought the debates came out fairly even, but all the news polls are showing that it's heavily edwards over cheney.

COuld this be that there are a lot of unpolled voters? Or is it that the democratic voters are on the web a lot more?
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Demcratic voters. Non internet polls show Cheynew winning. And he did win, but not in any substantial way, Edwards came off a bit ditzy.
 
I disagree, what about Cheney stating such things when attacked on *his* Senate record (his votes against MLK Day, various education bills, etc) merely stating "I think the record speaks for itself?" If Edwards was a bit ditzy, Cheney HAD to be a bit flustered.


After all, I dont really expect a vice-president to be anything other than a moral booster for his boss. Cheney is traditionally Bush's "attack dog" as one news agency put it, and Edwards is used to balance the ticket and appeal with his wittier banter.
 
I thought Cheney did better than Bush did, but Cheney looked like a guy that keeps getting slapped. But I also agree with CCR, Edwards did seem a bit ditzy. In the end, I give it to Edwards though, as Cheney comes off looking a bit too much the grouchy uncle.

CCR, would like to see where you got the polls that said that Cheney won that debate.
 
Cheney looking better than bush in a VP debate is not a victory for the Republicans. It's pretty obvious now that the ticket is inverted, and that's not going to help them. And based on demeanor alone, Edwards won handily.
vpdebate.jpg

A more rigorous scoring of the debate might give the edge to Cheney, but only if it neglected the truth-value of numerous statements -- e.g., " The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight", or " I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11", or "the charges (against Halliburton) are false". Darth Cheney proved that he thinks much quicker on his feet than his disciple, but he also played very loose with the facts and for once the newsmedia called him on some of it.

The online polls strongly over-represent Edwards' (and Kerry's) support. This is another reason never to pay serious attention to them -- although the TV news outlets delight in reporting them, since it makes them appear "high tech". A true opinion survey is not self-selected, samples each respondent only once, and weights sampled responses in comparison to area demographics. Online polls really do none of these things, but both parties have found it advantageous from a PR perspective to "get out the vote" on them as they are touted by the newsmedia. This time around, the Democrats did a much better job hitting the online polls, producing a lopsided result.

That said, anyone who doubts that the debates are swinging the momentum back to K/E in the real polls should take a look at this site, which tracks a composite of all the published state-by-state surveys to find the electoral college total at any given time:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/info/graph.html

From the graph, it looks very much like the Kerry campaign is opening up for the home stretch, and barring an October Surprise courtesy of Karl Rove or any black-box voting shenanigans, K/E stand a better-than-even chance of winning the election. It's going to be a nail-biter, though, no matter your preference.
 
Nice pic and link-


I agree, but I am wondering about the next debate. Much will swing on it. A lot of the Republican spinners are saying it doesn't matter, but the numbers say differently.

Here is another link to a useful count of the electoral votes- geographically.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/
 
Here's a cartoon I did for this magazine I'm working for:

cartoonbush.jpg


Bad scan, I know, but you get the idea.
Don't want to get into this discussion, though. Just thought I'd show you guys. :wink:
 
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