Prostitution

Ok, fair enough Luke, but it's one thing to be forced to work and another to be forced to be a prostitute.

In some countries, the structure of circumstances leave little opportunities for women except be a maid or a prostitute. The alternative is to starve.

That sucks. But as far as I know, in no developed country would the state send you a letter saying "either you work as a hooker or we cut your unemployment benefits."
 
Luke wrote:
I know of several people who are on welfare even though I know they could easily get a job if they truly wanted to, and accepted that they can not choose any job they want.
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And it is there the problem lies, how does one sepperate the ones who are realy in need (and yes i think thoose exist, people to dumb or specialised to get a proper job) from thoose who are realy lazy.
I think that there are borders one should not cross when talking about people being lazy when not taking certain jobs (Prostitute, soldier/merchenary, semen or bodypart-donor, the guy cleaning toxic-waste silos, serving drinks in a club 88 when you are black, etc).
Because forcing (saying we will cut your social aid if you don`t is, because it is a punishment that can have drastic effects on small familys) people to work in jobs, that are strictly against their moral code (not like it is against my moral code to serve anyone, because i feel like a slave when im doing that, and tellmarketing also is not) or are live threatening on long or short term is somehow strictly against the moral code of our society.
And i think social aid should stay, because you are right at one point, people will get work if they starve.
But since som people pretty much lack certain skils required for most jobs, thoose will not always be legal jobs.
 
Wouldn't having a job mean that people don't need the aid anymore, though?

What's the point in even having Welfare if you threaten people to get jobs?
 
Nah, in Germany ther is a special law that makes you still recive social aid at minimum wage jobs to prevent what happend with Lukes friends, plus a law that says that if you haven`t found a job after a certain time or won`t take a job the "Arbeitsamt" offers the payment will be reduced.
 
In America, the minimum wage is bottom barrell. I think its been documented many times over that no one can raise a family or even accumulate savings on it. There are plenty of minimum wage jobs out there, but you have to be pretty desperate to take one.

Anyways, I think it should be illegal. It might be more easily regulated and controlled if legal, but somethings just don't belong in a truly modern society. Thats one of them. Am I being arrogant? Perhaps, but I've never been one to take the path of convience when a the completing the greater challenge results in the greater good.
 
in retrospect, i think it was somewhat irrelevant of me to post the link about German's being quasi-forced into prostitution (and CCRs subsequent attempt at stealing credit!) What's the point? If prostitution were legal, would america adopt the same policy? It seems like the discussion is veering off into more of a welfare policy oriented talk. Nevertheless, I found it an interesting thing to read, which would most likely arouse strong emotions in you (hopefully not horny ones, you sick sexual sadists!)

Early on, my opinion on the issue was somewhat confused. I thought prostitution was 'morally' wrong and degrading. Other people don't seem to think so. Or maybe they do, and that's why it's so attractive a prospect to legalize. :-p Regardless, I now see that the only reason the state has to keep prostitution illegal is moral reasons. And the state isn't supposed to be a morality police, is it? If prostitution is illegal, shouldn't pornography be, also?
 
welsh said:
In some countries, the structure of circumstances leave little opportunities for women except be a maid or a prostitute. The alternative is to starve.

That sucks. But as far as I know, in no developed country would the state send you a letter saying "either you work as a hooker or we cut your unemployment benefits."
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Well, I agree, that does suck. I do have sympathies for the people who really do desperatley seek work, even though I have yet to meet one myself. I really think that the benefits for the unemployed are, in Sweden, way to high however, which is why I wouldn't think it to be so terrible if they were reduced for whatever reason. Anyone can really get a job as a telemarketer or burger flipper there; even without any form of references or even grades.

Turnip said:
Because forcing (saying we will cut your social aid if you don`t is, because it is a punishment that can have drastic effects on small familys) people to work in jobs, that are strictly against their moral code (not like it is against my moral code to serve anyone, because i feel like a slave when im doing that, and tellmarketing also is not) or are live threatening on long or short term is somehow strictly against the moral code of our society.
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What's an acceptable 'moral code' anyway? There was a girl in my grammar school class who refused to watch television due to religious reasons - should she have to accept a work in a sports bar, or a hotell lobby with a television set visible from the reception? If she refuses, should her unemployement benefits be cut? I think refusing to watch television due to religious reasons is pretty much equal to not wanting to serve people because it makes you feel like a slave.
 
I was reading an Economist article on guaranteed work in India stating the economist John Stuart Mill said that unemployment subsidies should be "available to everybody, but leaves a strong motive to do without if he can". It elaborated that unemployment subsidies should be high enough to prevent starvation or depradation without providing a comfortable living. This would maximize the gain of finding work while minimizing the harm of unemployment.

In other words if people are too confortable living on unemployment there is no work incentive, thus harming society, while a lack of benefits harms society just as much.

The more I read the more I wish economists ran the world. Such pragmatism will always outcompete ideology.
 
greatatlantic said:
In America, the minimum wage is bottom barrell. I think its been documented many times over that no one can raise a family or even accumulate savings on it. There are plenty of minimum wage jobs out there, but you have to be pretty desperate to take one.
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As bad as minimum wage is, it's worse to get unemployment. Last I heard, unemployment was only about $300 every other week- you simply can't live on that. Worse it only lasts about 6 months. So the pressure is on to get a job.

But the problem with minimum wage is, as you point out, it is also very difficult to get by and prosper. If you are stuck in minimum wage jobs your chances of economic advancement are virtually nill (unless you are looking for promotion), simply becaue you probably lack the time for the job training and job hunting necessary to get by.

Which leads to an awful reality for a lot of folks- many don't get jobs in the fields they wish or been trained for, simply because those jobs don't exist or there are too few of them.

But back to prostitution- I think you have to distinguish the crack whore who might get $50 for a blow job, and the prostitutes that work some of the bordellos in Nevada who bring home $100,000 a year.
Anyways, I think it should be illegal. It might be more easily regulated and controlled if legal, but somethings just don't belong in a truly modern society. Thats one of them. Am I being arrogant? Perhaps, but I've never been one to take the path of convience when a the completing the greater challenge results in the greater good.
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This I don't get. It has been proven that were prostitution is regulated, it is not only more healthy and safer than where it's not regulated, and is also lucrative.

Furthermore, what do you man by being truly modern? In a truly modern women should have equal rights to their bodies as men, and labor is commodified and free, capitalist systems are regulated but not controlled by the state. Combine those two, woman should have right to do what they want with their bodies to make money = prostitution.

It seems it is the more traditional societies where woman's rights are less robust.
 
Uhh. Since when were prostitutes only women?

I know it sounds nice to spout "Women's Rights" and modern society, but men's rights, by that same logic, are being violated as well.
 
Bradylama shows interest in male prostitutes---- hmmmm....... time to report to GOP''s morality police.

Fair enough- male prostitutes are also subject to the same issue of whether the state has the right to regulate what they want to do with their bodies.

Now we can argue more effectively that the "woman (or man)" may not have an unlimited right to their bodies- on such issues as abortion, or even "right to die" but those issues pertain to the state's protection of life itself. With prostitution it is back to moral questions of what to do with that life, given both religious/ethical values and the values of commerce, personal autonomy and individual rights.
 
Male prostitutes should have higher wages and greater benefits, because it is hell of a lot more difficult being a male prostitute than a female prostitute. The reasons are purely physiological - in order to be of any use, the male prostitute must get an erection and be able to maintain it for hours, which can be quite a challenge if his client is a fat cow with hair growing out of her boobs.
 
Ratty said:
Male prostitutes should have higher wages and greater benefits, because it is hell of a lot more difficult being a male prostitute than a female prostitute. The reasons are purely physiological - in order to be of any use, the male prostitute must get an erection and be able to maintain it for hours, which can be quite a challenge if his client is a fat cow with hair growing out of her boobs.
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Foolish, naive rat. The same is true for the porn industry, yet there is no such thing as high-paid male porn star, pretty much. They all get shitty wages, only the most famous ones get upped a little bit.

Why? Well, do you watch porn for the women? No, generally not. Even gay porn is considered too much fun to make for the men to pay them much.

As for gigolos, hah. Except for homosexual gigolos there is such a huge different between request for heterosexual gigolos and people offering to be gigolos that there's no need to lure them in with high prices.
 
Kharn said:
Except for homosexual gigolos there is such a huge different between request for heterosexual gigolos and people offering to be gigolos that there's no need to lure them in with high prices.
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There is? Strange, I never had any prob- ... Uh, never mind.
 
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