Ugly John said:
...
Well, that was fast (and it's Hobbes, not hobes
)Ok, so...what album?
Religion
- Thread starter Ruzdur
- Start date
...
Well, that was fast (and it's Hobbes, not hobes
)Ok, so...what album?
Well, the incident that made me believe is simply what I would consider being touched by the Holy Ghost.
Up until Easter Sunday back in 2001 I was a very militant atheist. I was a regular visitor at infidels.org, had an earthlink site that was dedicated to slamming Christianity, had one of those Church of Satan shirts (and wore it regularly) that said, "I'd Rather Reign in Hell Than Serve in Heaven" and had a pentagram on the front, read the Satanic Bible (Anton Lavey) often, etc...
That night, I was righting a term paper for a class (I was taking 30 semester hours for that spring semester... ten 3 semester hour classes, all upper division level, which is a heck of a lot) and my mind just simply wasn't working. I was stressing out a bit (that whole semester was very stressful) because I still had other stuff I had to do that night (and it was about 11 P.M., my first class the following day would start at 7:30, plus I had to drop the kids off at the sitters and drive to the college, so I was looking at a few hours of sleep at best).
I simply walked into our kitchen frustrated, then I felt the tension just fade from my body, I felt relaxed, energized, and for some reason I muttered a prayer to God, in the name of Jesus Christ, and I *knew* He existed, and that the Bible (which I had burned many copies of in my youth) was for the most part true (I'll explain the "completely true" versus "true as it is correctly translated" parts later). When I told my wife the following day, she was shocked and very happy for me. While she has always been a Christian, she wasn't devout during the time we were together (because I would only attend 'special' services like Easter with her, since I thought it was a serious waste of time, however that Easter I did not attend church with her).
That was simply it, I wasn't looking, but I was living a very 'Christian' style life (I didn't go to church and on the Internet I was offensive, but I had been doing a lot of volunteer work in the community prior to that semester, respected others, and helped others out all the time).
Immediately following that incident I tossed my Satanic Bible in the trash, along with the shirt, and then returned and finished the term paper (I got an A on it, and finished that semester with 8 'A' and 2 'B' grades in my classes, a beginning blessing from my new found faith).
The next Sunday I attended an Episcopal church, went there for a while, and then went to other faiths to see if it was where I belonged. In all, I have attended the following denominations: Catholic, First Christian Church, Church of God, Episcopal, Nazarene, a community churches, and lastly the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. With the exception of the community church, I have attended each denomination at least 5 times (I was Nazarene for almost a year).
I've been a Christian for basically the past 2.25 years or so. While I went to church regularly during that time (and from church to church), I didn't really live a Christian life. Anyone who knew me during that time, especially at the AOF can vouch for that. However, after talking with my best friend (who was an atheist until about a year ago) about the LDS faith, I became very interested. I was content with the Nazarene faith for the most part, except I wasn't growing spiritually or 'finding' time to read the Scriptures. When I started attending the LDS Church (even before I was baptized into the faith) I began to live a very Christian life. I read the Scriptures daily, pray several times a day (probably an average of 5 times a day, including 2 family prayers but excluding blessing food before we eat), have easily given up profanity, and found it easy to follow the commandments (for the most part I always had been, but I was able to really clean the rough edges of my life up). Not that I'm perfect now. The occasional curse word has come out of my mouth, but this is really a rare event, and there are definite areas I can improve in (for example, I missed giving my son a morning prayer before he got on the school bus, something I'll correct tomorrow).
So that is "the" event that really changed my life. It wasn't thunder and lightning, it wasn't God appearing to me and striking me down, it wasn't anything flashy, but the significance of the even is clear in my life today.
I see many blessings in my life, and both my wife and I can see a remarkable change in not only the love we share with each other, but the love we have for our kids. Our home life has improved much, my temper has receded a lot, and there are many other blessings from just living the Gospel (forgiving my family instead of stewing over incidents, etc...).
Okay, let me explain the part about the Bible being fully "correct" to "as it has been translated correctly".
As I (think) I said in a post in The Orders forum, the Bible may contain some mistakes. Why? Because man is imperfect. The Bible, in its original authorship is perfect, the Gospel is perfect. However, the Bible, being as old as it is, has been copied over several times, and surely mistakes have entered in. Some on purpose (Matthew 7:15, 24:11, 24 and so on), and some by true mistake.
Fortunately, there are 2 definite ways to deal with it. Through revelations of the Prophets who have been on the earth (like the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible that corrects some errors in it) in recent times (and today we have Gordon B. Hinckley) and through prayer.
Ugh... Gotta run, this one hour at the library really goes by fast.
Up until Easter Sunday back in 2001 I was a very militant atheist. I was a regular visitor at infidels.org, had an earthlink site that was dedicated to slamming Christianity, had one of those Church of Satan shirts (and wore it regularly) that said, "I'd Rather Reign in Hell Than Serve in Heaven" and had a pentagram on the front, read the Satanic Bible (Anton Lavey) often, etc...
That night, I was righting a term paper for a class (I was taking 30 semester hours for that spring semester... ten 3 semester hour classes, all upper division level, which is a heck of a lot) and my mind just simply wasn't working. I was stressing out a bit (that whole semester was very stressful) because I still had other stuff I had to do that night (and it was about 11 P.M., my first class the following day would start at 7:30, plus I had to drop the kids off at the sitters and drive to the college, so I was looking at a few hours of sleep at best).
I simply walked into our kitchen frustrated, then I felt the tension just fade from my body, I felt relaxed, energized, and for some reason I muttered a prayer to God, in the name of Jesus Christ, and I *knew* He existed, and that the Bible (which I had burned many copies of in my youth) was for the most part true (I'll explain the "completely true" versus "true as it is correctly translated" parts later). When I told my wife the following day, she was shocked and very happy for me. While she has always been a Christian, she wasn't devout during the time we were together (because I would only attend 'special' services like Easter with her, since I thought it was a serious waste of time, however that Easter I did not attend church with her).
That was simply it, I wasn't looking, but I was living a very 'Christian' style life (I didn't go to church and on the Internet I was offensive, but I had been doing a lot of volunteer work in the community prior to that semester, respected others, and helped others out all the time).
Immediately following that incident I tossed my Satanic Bible in the trash, along with the shirt, and then returned and finished the term paper (I got an A on it, and finished that semester with 8 'A' and 2 'B' grades in my classes, a beginning blessing from my new found faith).
The next Sunday I attended an Episcopal church, went there for a while, and then went to other faiths to see if it was where I belonged. In all, I have attended the following denominations: Catholic, First Christian Church, Church of God, Episcopal, Nazarene, a community churches, and lastly the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. With the exception of the community church, I have attended each denomination at least 5 times (I was Nazarene for almost a year).
I've been a Christian for basically the past 2.25 years or so. While I went to church regularly during that time (and from church to church), I didn't really live a Christian life. Anyone who knew me during that time, especially at the AOF can vouch for that. However, after talking with my best friend (who was an atheist until about a year ago) about the LDS faith, I became very interested. I was content with the Nazarene faith for the most part, except I wasn't growing spiritually or 'finding' time to read the Scriptures. When I started attending the LDS Church (even before I was baptized into the faith) I began to live a very Christian life. I read the Scriptures daily, pray several times a day (probably an average of 5 times a day, including 2 family prayers but excluding blessing food before we eat), have easily given up profanity, and found it easy to follow the commandments (for the most part I always had been, but I was able to really clean the rough edges of my life up). Not that I'm perfect now. The occasional curse word has come out of my mouth, but this is really a rare event, and there are definite areas I can improve in (for example, I missed giving my son a morning prayer before he got on the school bus, something I'll correct tomorrow).
So that is "the" event that really changed my life. It wasn't thunder and lightning, it wasn't God appearing to me and striking me down, it wasn't anything flashy, but the significance of the even is clear in my life today.
I see many blessings in my life, and both my wife and I can see a remarkable change in not only the love we share with each other, but the love we have for our kids. Our home life has improved much, my temper has receded a lot, and there are many other blessings from just living the Gospel (forgiving my family instead of stewing over incidents, etc...).
Okay, let me explain the part about the Bible being fully "correct" to "as it has been translated correctly".
As I (think) I said in a post in The Orders forum, the Bible may contain some mistakes. Why? Because man is imperfect. The Bible, in its original authorship is perfect, the Gospel is perfect. However, the Bible, being as old as it is, has been copied over several times, and surely mistakes have entered in. Some on purpose (Matthew 7:15, 24:11, 24 and so on), and some by true mistake.
Fortunately, there are 2 definite ways to deal with it. Through revelations of the Prophets who have been on the earth (like the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible that corrects some errors in it) in recent times (and today we have Gordon B. Hinckley) and through prayer.
Ugh... Gotta run, this one hour at the library really goes by fast.
Dan said:
Nah, it's on my own webspace over at wirehub.nl. They used to be my ISP, but they forgot to shut off my website when I left. They also keep forgetting to check my webspace usage. I must be 100 MB over the limit by now.
Meh.
So let me see if get this tone.
You were non religious.
Then your " mind just simply wasn't working"
And then you became religious?
That how the story goes?
I'm still wondering on your response to welsh post, on to why religion and politics should not be mixed.
You were non religious.
Then your " mind just simply wasn't working"
And then you became religious?
That how the story goes?
I'm still wondering on your response to welsh post, on to why religion and politics should not be mixed.
welsh
Junkmaster
Loxley-
I think that if you ask a lot of people they will probably give you a similar religious experience. I remember going to an Assembly's of God church once and it quite festive, but there were a lot of folks that got into the spirit. Then again, I have known folks who have gotten into it at a pubic gathering in a crowded London market. However, one also finds that kind of feeling in the streets of Singapore where Hindi's publically celebrate their faith or in mosques and many other places. The experience is one in which often one leaves with a sense that they have been filled with the essence of God, that your heart is full.
This is a spiritual experience, and for those who have experienced it, they often want others to share the experience. For them it is life changing and unique. The physicality of some of these experiences is such that it lives a lasting impression.
However, there are a couple of things-
(1) people of vastly different faiths have similar experiences.
(2) The human being wants to rationalize. It's in our nature.
(3) individual experiences may seem to be unique.
So what often happens is that people who undergo these experiences will think that they have been touched by God. In some extreme cases they will think that their views are correct (after all, if they were wrong- why would God touch them?) This gives people a sense of justification that they think relates to God but maybe just a case of us. Often one of the problems I find among the most highly Christianized is a lack of humility about their faith- that God might be divine, but man is not. I think you would find this true if you explored the other faiths as well.
This is the error. For God might love us not because we are right, but because we are wrong as well. In otherwords, the unconditional love of God (which is fundamental to the Christian faith) might be true for us despite the uniqueness of our beliefs or the error of your ways. That kind of unconditional love is rarely found in this world, except, perhaps from our parents and maybe our spouses.
But one think, and I think you are pointing this out, is that a person has to be open to the idea of God. The mere fact that Tone was so openly anti-God, meant that he already had a strong sense of religion in him, regardless if he was anti- or pro-. Love and Hate are often much closer than we think.
People who search for religion often have this experience two ways. Either they were raised in it (in which case I think a person should spend time questioning their faith) or they were looking for it (which I think was the case of Tone).
In otherwords, the seeds of religion are already there, and the person might be denying that or rejecting that idea. Once they open up to the idea, well that it comes strong. Inside human beings is a strong belief in things super-natural, mystic, or spiritual.
But what about a person who has not taken any interest in faith? A person who has no interest, is content with his lot, has no desire to find God nor has ever been remotely interested? Well perhaps that person misses out on the spiritual experiences of religion.
But that doesn't justify someone ramming church down his throat.
I think that if you ask a lot of people they will probably give you a similar religious experience. I remember going to an Assembly's of God church once and it quite festive, but there were a lot of folks that got into the spirit. Then again, I have known folks who have gotten into it at a pubic gathering in a crowded London market. However, one also finds that kind of feeling in the streets of Singapore where Hindi's publically celebrate their faith or in mosques and many other places. The experience is one in which often one leaves with a sense that they have been filled with the essence of God, that your heart is full.
This is a spiritual experience, and for those who have experienced it, they often want others to share the experience. For them it is life changing and unique. The physicality of some of these experiences is such that it lives a lasting impression.
However, there are a couple of things-
(1) people of vastly different faiths have similar experiences.
(2) The human being wants to rationalize. It's in our nature.
(3) individual experiences may seem to be unique.
So what often happens is that people who undergo these experiences will think that they have been touched by God. In some extreme cases they will think that their views are correct (after all, if they were wrong- why would God touch them?) This gives people a sense of justification that they think relates to God but maybe just a case of us. Often one of the problems I find among the most highly Christianized is a lack of humility about their faith- that God might be divine, but man is not. I think you would find this true if you explored the other faiths as well.
This is the error. For God might love us not because we are right, but because we are wrong as well. In otherwords, the unconditional love of God (which is fundamental to the Christian faith) might be true for us despite the uniqueness of our beliefs or the error of your ways. That kind of unconditional love is rarely found in this world, except, perhaps from our parents and maybe our spouses.
But one think, and I think you are pointing this out, is that a person has to be open to the idea of God. The mere fact that Tone was so openly anti-God, meant that he already had a strong sense of religion in him, regardless if he was anti- or pro-. Love and Hate are often much closer than we think.
People who search for religion often have this experience two ways. Either they were raised in it (in which case I think a person should spend time questioning their faith) or they were looking for it (which I think was the case of Tone).
In otherwords, the seeds of religion are already there, and the person might be denying that or rejecting that idea. Once they open up to the idea, well that it comes strong. Inside human beings is a strong belief in things super-natural, mystic, or spiritual.
But what about a person who has not taken any interest in faith? A person who has no interest, is content with his lot, has no desire to find God nor has ever been remotely interested? Well perhaps that person misses out on the spiritual experiences of religion.
But that doesn't justify someone ramming church down his throat.
What I am currently wondering about, Tone, is how you knew(or why you thought) that it was the Christian god who you had experienced, and not, for instance, the god according to the Muslim faith, or one of the Hindi, or maybe even one of a polytheistic religion(I wonder why we never hear anything about polytheistic religion, they almost died out, it doesn't seem that inplausible to me that if you have one god, you could actually have a family or race of gods.) IN any case, if, Tone, you thought of the Christian god purely because that was the God you knew most about, then perhaps you are actually excersising the wrong faith. Yet perhaps not, you did become a mormon later...
About Religion and Governent: These two can, and will be mixed, because religious people vot. Period, that's why religion and politcis get mixed. However, when religion and the GOVERNMENT mix(Meaning: The goverment takes on a state-religion, or especially BY LAW favors a religion), then you may have a problem, you can get serious oppresion of people solely because of what they believe. One thing that I find weird about the US is the strong involvement of a Christian god in various goverenmental things(I believe God is mentioned in the constitution, and that you swear on a bible in court when testifying).
About Religion and Governent: These two can, and will be mixed, because religious people vot. Period, that's why religion and politcis get mixed. However, when religion and the GOVERNMENT mix(Meaning: The goverment takes on a state-religion, or especially BY LAW favors a religion), then you may have a problem, you can get serious oppresion of people solely because of what they believe. One thing that I find weird about the US is the strong involvement of a Christian god in various goverenmental things(I believe God is mentioned in the constitution, and that you swear on a bible in court when testifying).
Sander said:
Meh, big ancient polytheistic religions did die out, but polytheistic religions are far from gone. What exactly do you think hinduism is, anyway? It's a polytheism.
Also, there are plenty of polytheist people, they're just all shoveled into "paganists" or "wiccans".
Nice religions, generally.
As for the rest of this thread...Ehm...
Ahem, Kharn, watch the bold word, it's important.Sander said:
Sander said:
...
Dude, when a form of relgion is one of the biggest religions in the world, I don't refer to it as "having almost died out"
Meh, I did, deal with it. Still, Polytheism is a large minority. I think...
Sander said:
Dude...750 million hindus...I mean...dude...
Ok, so it's a minority compaired to the 1.2 billion muslims and 2 billion Christians, but it's still a large religion.
Sikhism rules all, btw
PS: Isn't hinduism kinda pantheistic anyway?
See, it's still a minority. Why aren't there more of them? Because it appears to me that Polytheism was the most basic form of religion, until Judism came along, and then Christianity(An interesting train of thought would be that Christianity is nothing more than a sect started by a very charismatic person, building forth upon Judaism. Just to avoid something: That is NO attack on Christianity, just a small thought of a small possibility.) and later on the Islam, and Bddhism, although that isn't even really monotheism either.
Ah well.
Sikhism is fun indeed.
Ah well.
Sikhism is fun indeed.
welsh
Junkmaster
Sikhs rule!
OnTheBounce
Still Mildly Glowing
Sander said:
Buddhism is actually pretty hard to classify, especially since there are so many sects that have wildly differing beliefs, far more so than even the often mutually exclusive gamut of Christian sects. Using strict definitions, Buddhism -- as it originally was -- was technically a form of atheism, since there was no godhead. (No salvation, either. Just an attainment of oblivion, "getting off the wheel".)
As for polytheism in general, yes, it has been in decline for some time, but there are still quite a few religions of this type left. For instance, Confucianism in its Neo-Confusian guise, Shinto, various and sundry African belief systems, etc., etc.
Then there's the issue of people that follow multiple religions. For instance in Japan various religions and their cosmologies aren't seen as mutually exclusive, but rather simply as holding sway over different aspects of life.
And yes, Kharn, Hinduism is at least in some respects a form of pantheism.
OTB
Sander said:
Mormons worship the same God that other Christians do. We are Christians, which is why it is called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". In fact, if you look solely at the Bible without taking into account the other standard works of our Church (Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Mormon), we are the most Scripturally adherant of any Christian faith I have attended or know much about. Our leader is called a Prophet, not a Pope because the early Church was lead by a Prophet. I could go on and on about that but don't have time.
How did I know, because when I realized that God existed, with it (as I stated) I recognized the Bible and Christ as True (re read what I said so I don't have to analyze each part in detail). I don't think it was just becaue it was "what I was familiar with". I was familiar with being an atheist, never really having known life as a Christian. If it was simply because I was more familiar with Christianity than any other faith, I would probably have chosen to go to Catholic Mass, because I attended Catholic Mass as a child (my parents made me go, I didn't believe in God when I went), but I knew that Catholicism wasn't the right choice (for me).
I know now from my prayers that I made the right choice. I've asked (or stated to) some who are Muslim (KSM in fact, and others) that I hope they feel an answer from their prayers, and not once has one of them stated that they do in retort... It could be that they missed it, didn't find it worth explaining, or maybe they don't feel anything. Having been to Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, prayer there seems more of an obligation than anything else... And religion really isn't a matter of choice to many of them. Just my point of view.
I know what the LDS is, Tone, but it is a different church from the catholic church, even though they worship the same god, same basic beliefs, but still differences. In any case, thank you for answering my question.
welsh
Junkmaster
«ºTone Caponeº» said:
Well from what I understand of Islam, the basic ideas are not those of freedom but of submission and law. While many Muslims pray as an act of submission, many Christians also go to church on Sundays (or Saturdays) out of habit or out of their own sense of obligation.
Personally, I usually to church on Sunday because I think its appropriate to say, "hey thanks" at least once a week and its good to nourish that relationship in the community of others. Also the priests often have some interesting ideas. That and the donuts don't hurt.
However, that goes back to the point. Merely because the Christians might value love and the freedom of choice (to sin or not to sin) over the notion of submission and law doesn't make the Christians right. It only means that one religious community has one set of values, while another has a different set. That they are possible incompatible goes to the problem of religious division and the danger of mixing church and state.
The danger of an ideologically "pure" state is yet another matter that could be dangerous to the individual, society, the state and church itself.
Oh, and as a Catholic I would say that the Mormons are wrong about being the most scriptually adherent, but I am willing to bet that a lot of Protestants would also yell, "ha! and that from a Catholic!" I do know that many of the more religiously devout (and also less tolerant) do not consider LDS to be Christian but rather an odd spin off of Christianity. Honestly, its hard to see what's the big deal. Live and let live. I know LDS isn't for me. I would have a hard time giving up coffee or alcohol and that underwear.... no thank you!
But that goes to the issue of tolerance vs. non-tolerance and the right of people to be non-tolerant in their own ideas. To be free in thought means to accept that people have a right to be prejudiced, to be biased and not to tolerate others (provided they do not infringe on their legally protected rights as citizens or subjects).
On the other hand, Tone, I'd still like to hear your response to my posts above.
«ºTone Caponeº» said:
That is just...So wrong...
1) there are different bibles around. How CAN you be the most "Bible adherent" if the Bible you adhere to is just one your own religion created out of what was left of the original Bible, just like the other Churches created their own Bibles out of the original draft.
2) "adherence". What does this mean? Does this mean that, like some Churches, you believe every woman should walk 5 feet behind their man when on the streets because it says somewhere in the Bible Moses' wife did this?
Every sentence and act can be interpeted differently. One Christian (like a catholic or mormon) would state that you can't have female priests because Jesus didn't have female priests, another Christian (like some protestant) would state you CAN have female priests because Jesus stated that all humans are equal in the eyes of the Lord.
Do you see the problem here? You can't be "the most adherent" as long as the Bible can be interpeted, and it's impossible for it not to have different interpretations. Heck, even the Qu'uran has different interpretations, and there's only ONE version of that.
3) You shouldn't start on "literal adherence of the rules stated by Jesus and God" (which, from the Old and New Testament, are often in conflict, by the way), because the Germanic Protestant Reformed would have you beat...
Seriously.
welsh
Junkmaster
Kharn- I agree, but you see that's the whole point of an organized faith, the creation of "us" vs. "other."
One defines a group only in context of what others do. Thus each religion wants to be special, that they are right while the others are wrong.
So the special adherence matter. For Catholics that might be the parts of mass where the community pledges faith in "one holy apostalic church" or refuses to offer communion to those of other Christian faiths (although you might be able to get a blessing?- what the fuck?) or it might be in the history that says Jesus pointed to Peter and "upon this rock I build my church" making Peter the founding member of Catholicism.
But that uniqueness is also the cause of division. That might be fine in faith, but dangerous in the notion of community and state- unless you have a state that says, "religion is a matter of personal faith and the state will stay out."
One defines a group only in context of what others do. Thus each religion wants to be special, that they are right while the others are wrong.
So the special adherence matter. For Catholics that might be the parts of mass where the community pledges faith in "one holy apostalic church" or refuses to offer communion to those of other Christian faiths (although you might be able to get a blessing?- what the fuck?) or it might be in the history that says Jesus pointed to Peter and "upon this rock I build my church" making Peter the founding member of Catholicism.
But that uniqueness is also the cause of division. That might be fine in faith, but dangerous in the notion of community and state- unless you have a state that says, "religion is a matter of personal faith and the state will stay out."