Role Playing in the Wastes

Brother None

Brother None

This ghoul has seen it all
Orderite
Experience Points editorialized on role-playing in Fallout 3 from a pen and paper gamer perspective.<blockquote>Fallout 3 quickly gives the player dialogue choices that color who the character is, rather than a giving the player a sense of who their character is beforehand. Why was I behaving like a little Vault punk, other than the fact it was in line with how future me might behave? An early example of contextually removed choices is the G.O.A.T. exam, a silly test clearly designed for the players benefit, not the avatar’s.The answer to these questions have no in-game effect. The results of the exam determine which skill points the game suggests you tag, not binding you whatsoever to the outcome. Any motivation for choosing one option over another comes from the player alone.

Despite these barriers, I had fleshed out my character to my liking and came out of the vault comfortable with my decisions. My evil actions would be driven by mistrust, paranoia and a desire to find my father. Yet the game design did not facilitate this interpretation. I stole to survive, yet for every Stimpak I would steal, I would lose Karma points. At one point, my negative karma allowed one "shady" gentleman to view my character as a potential compatriot, despite the fact he had never seen me steal or kill. The personality I gave my character was not the personality Fallout seemed to be shepherding me towards.</blockquote>I wonder if he played the originals and is aware of their pen and paper roots...
 
A suggestion to Emil, Todd et rest, at Bethsoft studios.

Before starting development on Fallout 4, please as a first step, watch and learn from the movie ‘The Gamers: Dorkness Rising’. (link http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0447166/)
And who knows, maybe there is still hope for the franchise to get back to its roots.
 
I think there is an interesting point here. I was debating a similar mechanism for PARPG (http://parpg.fifengine.de) - but how to make it actually effect the character in game.

Silly GOAT exams aside - the idea was that goals and motivations would be tangibles set by player at the beginning of the game.

One simple idea is just to use "behavior" restrictions as "disadvantages" which gain you points to spend on your character. PnP games GURPS and Hero system (Champions) do this.

Another idea was to modify how you got experience from things you did in the game. If you primary motivation was "Savior - helping people" then you got (extra / full) XP from "nice" quests. If your primary motivation was "Become a fighting force of extra-ordinary magnitude" then you would get (full/extra) XP for killing stuff. There would be "reflective" penalties to other types of XP.

There would be an option to be "unmotivated" where you would get average xp for everything.

But I am not even sure we should _have_ experience points.
 
Brother None said:
I wonder if he played the originals and is aware of their pen and paper roots...
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Haha, I was actually wondering if he had ever played a pen and paper game... or Fallout 3, for that matter.
 
100LBSofDogmeat said:
Brother None said:
I wonder if he played the originals and is aware of their pen and paper roots...
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Haha, I was actually wondering if he had ever played a pen and paper game... or Fallout 3, for that matter.
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I think if you ask me the truth is that Todd and most people of his team damn sure know about "Pen and Paper" RPGs and the experience provided by it. I mean you dont get in the position of either lead artist or designer if you dont know at least something about games.

But I guess it just happens that Todd is one of those that doesnt "like" all to much the experience that pen and paper RPGs provide, like many of those people where you can read comments that this kind of game style is just "boring" and "tedious" cause youre totally focused always on numbers and stats come in to your way. I mean its such comments from Todd in the way like, A fantasy RPG is killing things and riding horses or such. And of course making a deep TB RPG needs totally different kind skill that how it seems Bethesda does not possess, like outstanding writting and well thought out gameplay, hell they dont even have a real concept phase! (their own words!). They seem to have already trouble to make convincingly human animations. Leaving alone coming up and using a "PnP" mechanics.

I mean he [Todd] is just designing the kind of game "he" likes. Which is I think not all to different from the original Fallout 1 interplay guys, to explain it a bit they made a clear RPG experience with its roots on Pen and Paper rules, and as well dialogues cause they probably liked it that way most of the design was choosen by the F1 devs intentionaly not cause of technical limitations, like Tourn based combat, ISO/Top Down view etc. Not cause it was "modern" during that time but I guess cause they liked it to be done that way and though it suits the style of game best, speaking about a "true" RPG experience. To say it that way, they could have made Fallout as well a generic hack'n'slay fest in the style of Diablo or even a "first person daggerfall like" experience just with guns instead of swords and axes and inside a post apoc setting. But they did not.

The issue is just that our good old pal Todd choose a franchise for to adopt for his liking (cause like many they see the setting as just "cool" not to be made more modern, what ever that now means) but forget that Fallout 1 never was designed to be a "action" RPG in the first place just like Dialbo never was designed to provide a experience like F1 did. One could probably try to make a pure strictly on dialogue based PnP experience out of Diablo with Diablo 3, but can he expect people, the fans of the series not to complain rightfully about it?
 
role-play
–verb (used with object)
1. to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction: Management trainees were given a chance to role-play labor negotiators.
2. to experiment with or experience (a situation or viewpoint) by playing a role: trainees role-playing management positions.
–verb (used without object)
3. to engage in role-playing.
 
What is Ms. Pac-man's motivation? She hungers.

Seriously though, I think it's a little funny that the people most interested in engaging in this semantic argument are also the first to disregard the dictionary definition. It doesn't seem feasible to make a reasonable argument about nomenclature when you are up against the majority AND the dictionary.
 
Dionysus said:
Seriously though, I think it's a little funny that the people most interested in engaging in this semantic argument are also the first to disregard the dictionary definition.
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Huh? I'm not interested in this semantic argument at all. You want to call Half-Life a roleplaying game? Knock yourself out. Want to say Bethesda's "pretend you're something" is roleplaying? Fuck if I care. Just don't pretend that just because you're using the word "roleplaying", that means it's the same goal of roleplaying Fallout 1/2 had, or the same type of pen-and-paper heritage roleplaying this editorial is talking about.
 
FeelTheRads said:
I'm sorry, does the dictionary definition refers to games? No? Then I guess you have no point.

when you are up against the majority
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Argumentum ad populum?
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It's a semantic argument, so yes, the majority pretty much rules. I wouldn't go to England and start arguments over the real definition of "football", or whether "rubbers" are really prophylactics rather than pencil erasers. Language is just symbolism. The words mean what most people think they mean.

It just seems like a really weird position from which to launch a semantic argument.

Brother None said:
Huh? I'm not interested in this semantic argument at all.
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That's probably why you didn't bring it up, pile on, or disregard the dictionary definition of role-playing. I wasn't referencing you.
 
Dionysus said:
That's probably why you didn't bring it up, pile on, or disregard the dictionary definition of role-playing. I wasn't referencing you.
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Apparently, you weren't referencing anyone. Because only Cimmerian Nights replied to the dictionary definition, but he didn't engage in the semantic debate before that point. You're arguing against air, I guess.
 
Dionysus said:
What is Ms. Pac-man's motivation? She hungers.

Seriously though, I think it's a little funny that the people most interested in engaging in this semantic argument are also the first to disregard the dictionary definition. It doesn't seem feasible to make a reasonable argument about nomenclature when you are up against the majority AND the dictionary.
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Yes, you play the ROLE of a character, a character driven to eat pellets, power pellets, and ghosts (and maybe the occasional cherry, pretzel or key), while roaming a 2d maze, there is even a romance sub-plot and animated cut-scenes, like every true ROLE-playing game!!!1!
 
methinks the advocates of "true" roleplaying games should find a better way / different words to describe what they are talking about.

Language evolves, and sticking to your guns about this (BTW, I agree with y'all) just makes you seem bitter, petty and out of touch.
 
Mentats said:
role-play
–verb (used with object)
1. to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction: Management trainees were given a chance to role-play labor negotiators.
2. to experiment with or experience (a situation or viewpoint) by playing a role: trainees role-playing management positions.
–verb (used without object)
3. to engage in role-playing.
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You don't understand how words work. A word's denotation is its strict dictionary definition while its connotation is its secondary or implied meaning that supplements its primary definition. When applied to computer and pen-and-paper games, the term "roleplaying" goes far beyond its denotation.
 
Yeah, defending your point by using a dictionary explanation is pretty ridiculous. Role-playing games tend to have a lot more than what that definition says.

Haha, and Ms. Pacman is not a role-playing game... c'mon.
 
Brother None said:
Apparently, you weren't referencing anyone. Because only Cimmerian Nights replied to the dictionary definition, but he didn't engage in the semantic debate before that point. You're arguing against air, I guess.
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That's because the air is dead wrong!

Maybe I just read that into the first post, but it seemed like CN was forwarding the tired "not an RPG" argument. In fact, I still don't see another interpretation.
 
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