scientists grow sperm? Lesbians rejoice?

Oh good, I'm glad they finally found the cures for Cancer and AIDS, and we can finally move on to something really important. This is almost as retarded as the shrimp on a treadmill experiment. For people so intelligent, scientists can be amazingly stupid.
 
Dude, what? This in no way takes away from cancer treatments being developed. In fact by working with stem cells, finding applications for stem cells they are increasing knowledge on how stem cells work and creating revenue streams for more stem cell research. Things that actually help in the development of Cancer Treatments.
 
patriot_41 said:
Oh good, I'm glad they finally found the cures for Cancer and AIDS, and we can finally move on to something really important. This is almost as retarded as the shrimp on a treadmill experiment. For people so intelligent, scientists can be amazingly stupid.
Yes, because obviously we can only research one thing at a time, right?

Also, this type of research leads to a lot of other possibilities, it isn't just limited to being able to produce sperm (which is pretty useful for infertile men anyway).
 
Sander said:
patriot_41 said:
Oh good, I'm glad they finally found the cures for Cancer and AIDS, and we can finally move on to something really important. This is almost as retarded as the shrimp on a treadmill experiment. For people so intelligent, scientists can be amazingly stupid.
Yes, because obviously we can only research one thing at a time, right?

Also, this type of research leads to a lot of other possibilities, it isn't just limited to being able to produce sperm (which is pretty useful for infertile men anyway).

Who cares about infertile men unless you got something to gain by it?:) i think curing cancer or aids is much more important...and i think theres a cure for that already but well its not profitable for them to release it...
 
gregor_y said:
Who cares about infertile men unless you got something to gain by it?:) i think curing cancer or aids is much more important...and i think theres a cure for that already but well its not profitable for them to release it...
Yeah, that's bloody likely.

It's also not an either/or proposition. Not everyone is going to research the cure for cancer at the same time, and that isn't productive either.
 
Rufus Luccarelli said:
But still, modifying genes is a very unknown subject, when you change something, there could be other unwanted effects to the modified subject.
That's why one would assume that we'd have a good grasp on it before we make it into the next big thing. That said, I've never had a problem with consensual human testing after a certain point in research and I have no problem with doing the kind of research on human embryos and fetuses that we do on animal embryos and fetuses.

Rufus Luccarelli said:
There are other examples of problems with picking and choosing certain traits in dog breeds, like hip dysplasia and such, and it all boils down to bad breeding (whether it is unavoidable through genetics or just bad breeding stock).
Breeding and genetics are seperate things and the problems that are in dogs are there because people breed for aesthetics and not for good genetics. Of course you'll have a certain extent of aesthetic manipulation in humans but one would hope that a large part of the point would be to remove genetic disorders, not add them.

Rufus Luccarelli said:
Bottom line, there is much to learn about this subject and if such a day will come when people get to pick and choose what their kids will look like, its no way going to be anytime soon.
Indeed, we're not close to there yet but I'd imagine that we should get there within at least the next 100 years, hopefully 50.

Rufus Luccarelli said:
And besides, this type of thing should be used to eliminate bad genes in the first place, genes that cause disease or defects, not to create "designer babies."
I have no problem with designer babies as long as they aren't genetically deficient. I see no reason that the two can't mesh but, as I said, I'd agree that removing genetic disorders and possibly increasing things like intelligence should be the priority.
 
UncannyGarlic said:
Breeding and genetics are seperate things and the problems that are in dogs are there because people breed for aesthetics and not for good genetics.

One can argue that breeding and genetics are actually quite similar. Older breeds of dogs were breed to have specific traits, which is done through picking and choosing dogs with desired qualities, qualities that are there because of their genes. In fact, the whole domestication of the dog is because of wolves that had certain genes that made them more willing to approach and interact with humans. And from then on it was all about picking and choosing the wolves that had good traits and genes to perform specific tasks. Breeding relies on the science of genetics, and although the oldest breeders of dogs had no idea that such a thing as DNA even existed, they were still essentially picking out desired genes from the dogs/wolves. Plus, that lack of knowledge led to the undesirable traits that showed up in the genotype in the first place.

Now, bad breeding and bad genetics are related to each other. Take the German Shepherd, when first produced and recognized as a separate breed, it was quite hardy and healthy, and was not a large dog, but a medium size dog, much like his wolf ancestors. The fact that it is prone to hip dysplasia, like most other large breeds, is due to bad breeding and also due in part to bad genetics. The reason large breeds are prone to that ailment is because people breed them to be, well, large. They were originally produced a certain size, but at sometime someone decided they should be larger, yet they still retain their basic original design. So the large body gene is a stress to a bone structure that was never meant to support such a mass. But bad breeding is just breeding two parents with bad genes (in this case, a gene that causes hip dysplasia). Now with the dalmatian, it being prone to deafness is unavoidable. In order for people to be able to see the dalmatian, they breed it with a white coat and black spots (because they were carriage dogs). With the white coat came a genetic inherent deafness (not all dalmatians are deaf though). But with cats, a cat that has a white coat and blues are deaf (in humans, it is called Waardenburg syndrome). All due to genetics. The whole fact that some dogs are better guarders than others, better herders, better retrievers, desire to go into tunnels more than others, are more vocal, etc., is all due to genetics.

And yes, newer breeds, like the designer dogs, lap dogs (although some lap dogs are quite old), are breed purely for aesthetic purposes, but most breeds are breed to perform specific jobs. But yeah, if such a technology shall arise like genetic engineering for the purpose of designing a human, I'm sure most of it will be to eliminate genetic problems, but there will be those who would want their kid to look a certain way. And who is to say that the elimination of genetic problems or undesirable traits won't lead to more or different problems down the line? That's why there need to much more research, and studying dogs/wolves is a great way to go about it (not to say there are other ways though). I mean, look at the entire fact that all these varying breeds of dog, that look so different from one another, all came from one animal, the wolf. It's a good angle for genetic study and also evolution studies (which I believe scientist already study dogs for these purposes).

Now, so we are on topic, the whole sperm thing is great news for the scientific community. While yes, this could be used as research for infertility, and I suppose down the line it could be used for lesbian couples to have biological children, there is much more to this. The fact that scientists have created sperm cells also leads the way to the creation of other types of cells, and the fact that these scientists believe that eventually they can be created from human skin cells is also hopeful. If it gets to the point where skin cells, not stem cells, can be used to create different cells, it could possibly eliminate some of the controversy around stem cell research, in the sense that patient's skin cells are used and not embryonic stem cells. But, there will also still be the debate of scientific, ethical, and legal issues. So who knows what the future may hold for this kind of research, it's sure going to be a rough and difficult road these scientists embark on though.
 
Rufus Luccarelli said:
One can argue that breeding and genetics are actually quite similar. Older breeds of dogs were breed to have specific traits, which is done through picking and choosing dogs with desired qualities, qualities that are there because of their genes. In fact, the whole domestication of the dog is because of wolves that had certain genes that made them more willing to approach and interact with humans.
Is this something you just assume, or do you have a source for this? Because for as far as I know all 'knowledge' about the domestication of wolves is largely guesswork and extrapolation.
I do know that there are some theories that some wolves evolved to scavenging around humans, but no proof of that for as far as I know.

I don't think there's any way to know if there were genetic differences before domestication anyway, as when you seperate a group of animals and reward them based on different criteria you will eventually get genetic differences as well.

In any case, I think you're ignoring the nurture part of upbringing and evolution, an aspect that is still poorly understood - but it is also generally accepted that nurture plays an important part as well, even in animals.

As well as that, traditional breeding is definitely different from genetics. Breeding is solely concerned with phenotype, while genetics is concerned with genotype as well. The fact that breeding works because of genetics, doesn't mean that it is approached in the same way.
 
Yeah, yeah, I left out things in my post because I don't feel like writing a 100 page thesis on the subject. :P Yeah, wolf/dog domestication is still based on theories, but the most rational theory, in my opinion, is that certain wolves chose to be around people because they saw it as a survival advantage, and it took off from there.

Now, the whole breeding vs genetics thing, genetics, DNA and all that good stuff, determines everything about a certain organism. While some or many breeders don't have extensive, or in the case of early breeders, any knowledge about genetics or DNA, doesn't mean that genetics isn't at play here. It's because of the genes of the animal that determined how it would look, act, respond, etc. Just because they didn't set out with a scientific approach, doesn't mean they didn't manipulate genes to get desired results. Yes, nurturing plays a big role in it, but its the genetics of an animal such as a dog or a wolf that make the fact that they can and desire to be nurtured possible (they are pack animals, after all). Its in their genes that they should form packs, form relationships with one another. Other animals don't have that same mentality and exhibit that fact (no matter how much you nurture, say a spider, its really not going to respond to you the same way a pack oriented animal would).

Anyway, you're missing the entire point of my original post (perhaps that's due in part to my own fault :lol: ), which is you change the genes of an organism, you're going to get unexpected, undesired results. Dalmatian's white coat = highly prone to deafness. White cat + blue eyes = deaf.
 
Rufus Luccarelli said:
My opinion is, if you can't have children but want children, adopt.

Uh-huh. You think adoption is easy for gay couple? For Dutch gay people, the only viable option for adoption is - in fact - adopting from the US. Most other countries do not allow homosexual couples to adopt children from there.
 
Rufus Luccarelli said:
Yeah, yeah, I left out things in my post because I don't feel like writing a 100 page thesis on the subject. :P Yeah, wolf/dog domestication is still based on theories, but the most rational theory, in my opinion, is that certain wolves chose to be around people because they saw it as a survival advantage, and it took off from there.

Now, the whole breeding vs genetics thing, genetics, DNA and all that good stuff, determines everything about a certain organism. While some or many breeders don't have extensive, or in the case of early breeders, any knowledge about genetics or DNA, doesn't mean that genetics isn't at play here. It's because of the genes of the animal that determined how it would look, act, respond, etc. Just because they didn't set out with a scientific approach, doesn't mean they didn't manipulate genes to get desired results. Yes, nurturing plays a big role in it, but its the genetics of an animal such as a dog or a wolf that make the fact that they can and desire to be nurtured possible (they are pack animals, after all). Its in their genes that they should form packs, form relationships with one another. Other animals don't have that same mentality and exhibit that fact (no matter how much you nurture, say a spider, its really not going to respond to you the same way a pack oriented animal would).
Yes, but there are a lot of details we don't know, and effects we may not know.
We don't know how much upbringing (by their parents, or by the pack) of animals has an effect - or even growing up around animals of their species vs (for instance) humans.

See also what happens with human babies growing up amongst animals, for instance.

Rufus Lucarelli said:
Anyway, you're missing the entire point of my original post (perhaps that's due in part to my own fault :lol: ), which is you change the genes of an organism, you're going to get unexpected, undesired results. Dalmatian's white coat = highly prone to deafness. White cat + blue eyes = deaf.
Yeah, that's pretty well-known. The way genes and environments (or genes with other genes) interact are pretty funny and produce a lot of unknown and weird results.
 
There's a comic book series called "Y the Last Man" whose plot is quite similar to the question you're posing. In the first issue labeled "Unmanned" a strange virus exterminates every single mammal with Y chromosome except for the main protagonist of the series and his pet monkey (also male). The writer at the end of the episode gives you a short summary of what could happen if the world would become "unmanned" and a glimpse of possible future that would soon follow (here's an excerpt):


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So I guess that unless every single female in the world in the next 100 years get's a PhD in every relevant scientific discipline the lesbian dreamworld would soon become a lesbian nightmare; and a short one for that matter.
 
On the topic of domesticated animals, I'd suggest looking into the Russian experiments on breeding foxes for domestication. They found that after only a few generations that the animals that they had been selectively breeding started looking more like domestic dogs (floppy ears, different colors, etc.). I wish I had the video I watched about it (or rather the segment of the video covering this) but google will have to do. I believe that this is the wikipedia page for it, though it lacks the really interesting details and early film footage of the animals.

Keep in mind that while people breed for specific traits, they are not picking and choosing individual genes (or collections of genes in many cases) but rather a trait (attached to a gene) which includes a much less selective collection of genes. While they can and do breed down to a collection of specific traits, it's still not anywhere near as precise and genetic manipulation.
 
Yup, I've seen the fox thing. Pretty interesting stuff (scientists believe that foxes are actually more "in tuned" to humans than wolves actually).

Yeah, I'm not denying that genetic manipulation is different from breeding, it is very much different for the reasons you stated (extremely percise and all that). But I believe that selective breeding is basically like genetic manipulation in one of its most primitive forms. That's all. :)
 
I just want to start a thread titled "Scientist build robot fuck-doll and legalize cloning, Men rejoice"
 
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