Seeking PS:Torment Advice

[UniversalWolf]

...idk what could be wrong, i'd recommend to wait the next package and report the problem at spellhold studios...

Pardon?

I'm not having any problems to speak of. Running great. The few times I've had crashes I restart the game and everything runs just fine again.

I'm a bit over-matched by the raging hordes in Undersigil ATM, though.

 

[Dead Guy]

I remember that place wasn't exactly appropriate for my level when I first stumbled down there. I think I should replay the game, feels like I missed some things on my first playthrough.

 

[UniversalWolf]

I remember that place wasn't exactly appropriate for my level when I first stumbled down there.

Yeah, it's rough. Good for XP farming though.

I think I should replay the game, feels like I missed some things on my first playthrough.

Undoubtedly.

I've been a bit disappointed with my wizard TNO. I've been finding good weapons recently, and he can't use any of them. Also, this game is refreshing my dislike for the D&D magic system. The short videos for the high-level spells is a nice touch, though.

Luckily the game has enough substance to overcome the system's shortcomings. One of the reasons I like it is because it's different enough from regular D&D that you kind of forget the lousy D&D mechanics.

[spoiler:8945b309f9]Update: I'm currently scouring the Mortuary for the portal to the Negative Material Plane.[/spoiler:8945b309f9]

 

[Dead Guy]

I've been a bit disappointed with my wizard TNO. I've been finding good weapons recently, and he can't use any of them.

I think I gimped my Wizard a bit in my playthrough... I had 20+ int/wis but maybe I switched from warrior too late I don't know. In every fight that was actually hard the monster kept countering almost everything I threw at it. As for weapons there should be a few daggers or the like that are pretty ok iirc.

 

[UniversalWolf]

I think I gimped my Wizard a bit in my playthrough... I had 20+ int/wis but maybe I switched from warrior too late I don't know. In every fight that was actually hard the monster kept countering almost everything I threw at it. As for weapons there should be a few daggers or the like that are pretty ok iirc.

The best dagger I found was probably the 50% MR one, but it's also -4 THACO. Other than that, the best one I found was a +3 dagger with no other special abilities.

[spoiler:805d42dafc]The demons in the dream sequence would've been completely impossible if not for that spell you get from Dak'kon - Balance in All Things, I think it's called - that damages all your enemies whenever they damage you. I used that and just kept healing myself as fast as possible. That might be the single most powerful spell in the game, actually. I used it to destroy all the True Shadows in the Fortress of Regret.[/spoiler:805d42dafc]
For my next playthrough, I'm going to hack my Nameless One into a F/M/T.

 

[Xellos]

IMO the greatest spell is enol eva duplication or how it is called. And in late game getting 25 wisdom is easily achieveable and very helpful

 

[UniversalWolf]

So now that I've finished Torment (and thanks to everyone who answered my call for advice, BTW), it seems appropriate to come to some conclusion about the game.

First of all, the experience was well worth it. If there's anyone left around here who hasn't played Torment, and thinks he might want to try, I say go for it. The odds of your being disappointed are very low. In my opinion, Torment is the best of the Infinity Engine games, hands down.

Let me say a few words about what I liked most.

[spoiler:15cd6bb6db]The story is a cut above most game stories in several ways. The sheer amount of dialogue content in the game is surprising, and that content is well-written. There are two specific things I like most about the story. Number one: it's a tragedy. A tragedy! Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single game besides Torment that doesn't have some sort of happy ending. "Winning" in PST means your character is banished to an apparently eternal afterlife of horrible punishment - and he deserves it. There is no choice of doing things a certain way that leads to a happy outcome. Bending over backwards to be the ultimate goody-two-shoes doesn't help. That's a gutsy move for a commercial game...and it works. Number two (and this is inextricably linked to number one): your character is not "The Chosen One" destined to save the world from The Forces of Evil (TM). How refreshing is that? If you "lose" the game, the universe is not destroyed. No one recognizes you as the last hope for your tribe/civilization/planet.
[/spoiler:15cd6bb6db]

That said, I agree with some of the criticisms of Torment.

[spoiler:15cd6bb6db]Replayability is an issue. I find I have no desire at all to play Torment again - not in the near future, at least. Sure, there are some different options for different kinds of characters, but due to the nature of the story all paths lead to the same conclusion, regardless of the kind of personality you decide to give The Nameless One. Also, Torment is a game that demands the player pay close attention to the large volume of dialogue. If you don't pay close attention, you'll miss things. I don't have the concentration to play the game that way again. It's like I just finished reading a novel, and now I'm supposed to read it again right away. It doesn't work.

And there's nothing else to draw me back, since, for example, the combat is bland at best. The "game" parts of Torment are generally pretty bland, in fact.[/spoiler:15cd6bb6db]
Buying a copy of Torment is inexpensive after all these years. It's well worth the price, especially with years and years of fan-made fixes and mods free for the downloading.

 

[Per]

[spoiler:941c3d9296]"Winning" in PST means your character is banished to an apparently eternal afterlife of horrible punishment - and he deserves it.[/spoiler:941c3d9296]

[spoiler:941c3d9296]Doesn't Fall-from-Grace state her intention of getting you out of there? Also, the afterlife of D&D doesn't really function as the common perception of the hell of (parts of) Christianity.[/spoiler:941c3d9296]

 

[UniversalWolf]

[spoiler:329ac29d00]Doesn't Fall-from-Grace state her intention of getting you out of there? Also, the afterlife of D&D doesn't really function as the common perception of the hell of (parts of) Christianity.[/spoiler:329ac29d00]

[spoiler:329ac29d00]Yes, F-f-G is a big softy about getting TNO loosed from hell, but the suggestion of the dialogue is that it will take a long, long time even assuming she's able to find him. For the foreseeable future, he's screwed. Pretty obvious sequel bridge, though.

Even though Carceri isn't the same as eternal damnation in the Christian sense, the game's dialogue and lore is uniformly bleak and foreboding concerning life and afterlife on the lower planes. A normal soul can get absorbed into the elemental evil of the planes themselves, or devoured by a demon, or transformed into a flabby lemure. Or wedged into a pillar of skulls. At best you get involved in the Blood War, and you're constantly being warned against getting involved in that business.

I'm inclined to think you're right about Torment being a bit overrated, but as an interactive story, it's quite good. That first playthrough is nice.[/spoiler:329ac29d00]

 

[Per]

[spoiler:6ff064ba55]Even though Carceri isn't the same as eternal damnation in the Christian sense, the game's dialogue and lore is uniformly bleak and foreboding concerning life and afterlife on the lower planes. A normal soul can get absorbed into the elemental evil of the planes themselves, or devoured by a demon, or transformed into a flabby lemure. Or wedged into a pillar of skulls. At best you get involved in the Blood War, and you're constantly being warned against getting involved in that business.[/spoiler:6ff064ba55]

[spoiler:6ff064ba55]One of the fundamentals of the canonical D&D afterlife is that you become a "petitioner", a cipher, losing all your memories and losing your identity. For this reason the afterlife can't really be a punishment or a reward because it's as if it's happening to another person. Of course the game needs to steer away from this because it wouldn't fit the story, but it means we don't know exactly what the future of TNO looks like.[/spoiler:6ff064ba55]

I'm inclined to think you're right about Torment being a bit overrated, but as an interactive story, it's quite good. That first playthrough is nice.

I agree, it has many bright spots, it makes good use of the setting and the dialogue is mostly very good or excellent. The reason I think it's overrated is specifically because it often gets credit for things that I consider provably false, e.g. that it has astounding replayability (there are few if any amazing differences or opportunities that depend on your choices of alignment or allegiance), that it makes good use of the AD&D ruleset, that it has consistently good writing, and so on.

 

[UniversalWolf]

I agree, it has many bright spots, it makes good use of the setting and the dialogue is mostly very good or excellent. The reason I think it's overrated is specifically because it often gets credit for things that I consider provably false, e.g. that it has astounding replayability (there are few if any amazing differences or opportunities that depend on your choices of alignment or allegiance), that it makes good use of the AD&D ruleset, that it has consistently good writing, and so on.

I think you could even make a solid case that PST doesn't qualify as a role-playing game. That's assuming you wanted to get into that ubiquitous, never-ending debate about what RPG means. Talk about eternal banishment to Carceri...

[spoiler:1bdaec3385]Based on the cinematic clip that ends the game, I suspect TNO would not have the same experience as a normal petitioner in Carceri. His background is exceptional. That might depend on which ending you choose to accept as the real one for continuing the story, however. The "best" ending seems to be the one where he merges with The Transcendent One (ostensibly gaining many lifetimes of knowledge, power, and experience), so that's what I would go with.[/spoiler:1bdaec3385]

 

[Per]

Interestingly,

[spoiler:ded52d271c]what happens to TNO at the end of Torment is basically the same thing that happens to Jon Irenicus at the end of BG2.[/spoiler:ded52d271c]

 

[matthewfarmery]

not played PST in ages, did complete it once, was a very good game, different to BG1 and 2, in some ways better, others worse, but a very good story, may have to play it again

 

[UniversalWolf]

[spoiler:c9f3cbf9ca]what happens to TNO at the end of Torment is basically the same thing that happens to Jon Irenicus at the end of BG2.[/spoiler:c9f3cbf9ca]

With two important differences...

[spoiler:c9f3cbf9ca]Irenicus (who obviously had not lost his memories) tried to use his magic, and it fizzled. TNO just grabbed a weapon and ran off. Had TNO lost his powers and memories? It's not clear, although he didn't seem confused by his surroundings. Also, Irenicus was jumped by demons and tossed into a lake of molten lava. TNO was still upright and ambulatory and looking fairly dangerous.

It's an interesting comparison, though, the PC from Torment having a similar fate to the bad guy from BG...a comparison that works in Torment's favor, I think.[/spoiler:c9f3cbf9ca]

 

[Per]

[spoiler:ef8c1d2755]Irenicus (who obviously had not lost his memories) tried to use his magic, and it fizzled.[/spoiler:ef8c1d2755]

[spoiler:ef8c1d2755]Under AD&D rules, you lose all the spells in your head just by being rendered unconscious. Unless we think Irenicus' physical body was actually transported to the Abyss or wherever, there was no reason to expect he could cast spells at that time. Although I suppose the argument holds if we assume the developers didn't really care about this and just wanted to show he's in deep shit.[/spoiler:ef8c1d2755]

[spoiler:ef8c1d2755]TNO just grabbed a weapon and ran off.[/spoiler:ef8c1d2755]

[spoiler:ef8c1d2755]After spending the entire game levelling as a mage and not once as a fighter.[/spoiler:ef8c1d2755]

[spoiler:ef8c1d2755]Also, Irenicus was jumped by demons and tossed into a lake of molten lava. TNO was still upright and ambulatory and looking fairly dangerous.[/spoiler:ef8c1d2755]

[spoiler:ef8c1d2755]Until five minutes later when he gets jumped by demons and tossed into a lake of molten lava, I'm sure. Also, didn't Irenicus just go over the edge of a cliff out of our field of vision?[/spoiler:ef8c1d2755]

 

[mor]

Platter's unofficial patch is the one I've been using, which is basically just bugfixed vanilla. Qwinn's mod fixes more things (and includes Platter's patch), along with restoring cut content.

hmm i might revisit this one after the moneky island

 

[UniversalWolf]

Under AD&D rules, you lose all the spells in your head just by being rendered unconscious.

Really? That's hilarious. I never knew. That emphasizes the bizarre nature of the D&D spell casting system. "Memorizing" something implies you're not going to forget it just by taking a 15-minute nap. Still, I distinctly remember sparks and smoke flying from Johnny's fingertips as his spell fizzled. Explain THAT!

[spoiler:2ae8c64bda]Although I suppose the argument holds if we assume the developers didn't really care about this and just wanted to show he's in deep shit.[/spoiler:2ae8c64bda]

[spoiler:2ae8c64bda]I'd go with that line of reasoning. Still, let's not forget that Irenicus had just been stripped of his power, while TNO (assuming the "merger" ending) had just gained a load of new power.[/spoiler:2ae8c64bda]

[spoiler:2ae8c64bda]After spending the entire game levelling as a mage and not once as a fighter.[/spoiler:2ae8c64bda]

[spoiler:2ae8c64bda]TNO starts the game as a third-level fighter no matter what. And of course you can play him as a fighter exclusively, although my TNO was a wizard. I assume he would've grabbed a dagger instead of the macelike object had there been one on hand. [/spoiler:2ae8c64bda]

[spoiler:2ae8c64bda]Also, didn't Irenicus just go over the edge of a cliff out of our field of vision?[/spoiler:2ae8c64bda]

You're right! Another thinly-veiled sequel bridge. Irenicus will return, and without a doubt he will be bigger and badder than before. What kind of sequel would it be otherwise?

 

[mobucks]

My problem with PS:T and why I never get more than 3 screens out of the mortuary, is that EVERY npc can be talked to for like 5 minutes, and I don't want to miss anything because im neurotic like that, and then I get sidetracked into some random quest I probably should'nt be doing at level 2, such as the necromancer sewers, ending with me just getting my ass whooped terribly because I put all my stats into wisdom and charisma. Sorry for the long sentence.

Hahha i'm one of those wee-todds that todd howard implements hand-holding game mechanics for. "Its okay Mobucks, stats don't matter in our games."

 

[Starwars]

PS:T is one of my favorite games. The bit about replayability is right though, there is a fair amount of "sameness" between replays.

But even so, I have to say that upon replaying it, I found quite a lot of stuff that I just did not find on my first playthrough (even though I consider myself fairly thorough). The game rewards exploration well, there's a fair amount of small "nuggets" to be found. It's also worth seeing some of the evil options. But yeah, as far as replayability goes, it's not even close to some of the more open RPGs like Fallout.

 

[.Pixote.]

My problem with PS:T and why I never get more than 3 screens out of the mortuary, is that EVERY npc can be talked to for like 5 minutes, and I don't want to miss anything because im neurotic like that, and then I get sidetracked into some random quest I probably should'nt be doing at level 2...

This might help…