Sept 11-

IN one of his letters Thomas Jefferson remarked that in matters of religion "the maxim of civil government" should be reversed and we should rather say, "Divided we stand, united, we fall." In this remark Jefferson was setting forth with classic terseness an idea that has come to be regarded as essentially American: the separation of Church and State. This idea was not entirely new; it had some precedents in the writings of Spinoza, Locke, and the philosophers of the European Enlightenment. It was in the United States, however, that the principle was first given the force of law and gradually, in the course of two centuries, became a reality.

If the idea that religion and politics should be separated is relatively new, dating back a mere three hundred years, the idea that they are distinct dates back almost to the beginnings of Christianity. Christians are enjoined in their Scriptures to "render ... unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's." While opinions have differed as to the real meaning of this phrase, it has generally been interpreted as legitimizing a situation in which two institutions exist side by side, each with its own laws and chain of authority -- one concerned with religion, called the Church, the other concerned with politics, called the State. And since they are two, they may be joined or separated, subordinate or independent, and conflicts may arise between them over questions of demarcation and jurisdiction.
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This formulation of the problems posed by the relations between religion and politics, and the possible solutions to those problems, arise from Christian, not universal, principles and experience. There are other religious traditions in which religion and politics are differently perceived, and in which, therefore, the problems and the possible solutions are radically different from those we know in the West. Most of these traditions, despite their often very high level of sophistication and achievement, remained or became local -- limited to one region or one culture or one people. There is one, however, that in its worldwide distribution, its continuing vitality, its universalist aspirations, can be compared to Christianity, and that is Islam.

Islam is one of the world's great religions. Let me be explicit about what I, as a historian of Islam who is not a Muslim, mean by that. Islam has brought comfort and peace of mind to countless millions of men and women. It has given dignity and meaning to drab and impoverished lives. It has taught people of different races to live in brotherhood and people of different creeds to live side by side in reasonable tolerance. It inspired a great civilization in which others besides Muslims lived creative and useful lives and which, by its achievement, enriched the whole world. But Islam, like other religions, has also known periods when it inspired in some of its followers a mood of hatred and violence. It is our misfortune that part, though by no means all or even most, of the Muslim world is now going through such a period, and that much, though again not all, of that hatred is directed against us.

We should not exaggerate the dimensions of the problem. The Muslim world is far from unanimous in its rejection of the West, nor have the Muslim regions of the Third World been the most passionate and the most extreme in their hostility. There are still significant numbers, in some quarters perhaps a majority, of Muslims with whom we share certain basic cultural and moral, social and political, beliefs and aspirations; there is still an imposing Western presence -- cultural, economic, diplomatic -- in Muslim lands, some of which are Western allies. Certainly nowhere in the Muslim world, in the Middle East or elsewhere, has American policy suffered disasters or encountered problems comparable to those in Southeast Asia or Central America. There is no Cuba, no Vietnam, in the Muslim world, and no place where American forces are involved as combatants or even as "advisers." But there is a Libya, an Iran, and a Lebanon, and a surge of hatred that distresses, alarms, and above all baffles Americans.

At times this hatred goes beyond hostility to specific interests or actions or policies or even countries and becomes a rejection of Western civilization as such, not only what it does but what it is, and the principles and values that it practices and professes. These are indeed seen as innately evil, and those who promote or accept them as the "enemies of God."

This phrase, which recurs so frequently in the language of the Iranian leadership, in both their judicial proceedings and their political pronouncements, must seem very strange to the modern outsider, whether religious or secular. The idea that God has enemies, and needs human help in order to identify and dispose of them, is a little difficult to assimilate. It is not, however, all that alien. The concept of the enemies of God is familiar in preclassical and classical antiquity, and in both the Old and New Testaments, as well as in the Koran. A particularly relevant version of the idea occurs in the dualist religions of ancient Iran, whose cosmogony assumed not one but two supreme powers. The Zoroastrian devil, unlike the Christian or Muslim or Jewish devil, is not one of God's creatures performing some of God's more mysterious tasks but an independent power, a supreme force of evil engaged in a cosmic struggle against God. This belief influenced a number of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish sects, through Manichaeism and other routes. The almost forgotten religion of the Manichees has given its name to the perception of problems as a stark and simple conflict between matching forces of pure good and pure evil.

The Koran is of course strictly monotheistic, and recognizes one God, one universal power only. There is a struggle in human hearts between good and evil, between God's commandments and the tempter, but this is seen as a struggle ordained by God, with its outcome preordained by God, serving as a test of mankind, and not, as in some of the old dualist religions, a struggle in which mankind has a crucial part to play in bringing about the victory of good over evil. Despite this monotheism, Islam, like Judaism and Christianity, was at various stages influenced, especially in Iran, by the dualist idea of a cosmic clash of good and evil, light and darkness, order and chaos, truth and falsehood, God and the Adversary, variously known as devil, Iblis, Satan, and by other names.





I like The Economist, but all pale in comparison to Bernard Lewis and the Atlantic Monthly!
 
ConstinpatedCraprunner said:
His name is Jimmy Falwell. That is what Google is for.

No, his name is Jerry Falwell. I think you're combining Jimmy Swaggert and Jerry Falwell.

CC said:
Kran, when was the last time you herd someone use the term "semetic" to refer to an Arab or other Muslim?

Misuse of that word gets my goat. Since when are Jews the only supposed descendants of Shem? Of course, this term would only refer to ethnically Arabian peoples, and not Muslims, just like it shouldn't refer to non-ethnic Jews.

While CC is correct that very few people use the term correctly, it's the same issue as w/other commonly misused words like "decimate". (Don't even get me started on that one...)

OTB
 
That does it, CC, I won't respond to your sidestepping, anecdotes or other things. I will say this, and only this, to get to the point:
THe Islam is NOT inherently violent, and has not caused any violence BY ITSELF.

The misuse, and misconceptions of man have made the Islam SEEM violent, but it is the MEN who are violent. The ISlam doesn't tell them to fly plains into buildings, they think they can read in the KOran that they should. But that is interpretation of man.

If someone misinterprets the Koran, HE is to blame for the deaths caused, NOT the Koran.

ANother thing is the use of the Islam as an excuse. When a king needs and excuse to wage war, he says "INfidels!" and that's it. That does NOT mean that Islam is violent.

Thus my poin that if CHristianity was in the same position, CHristians would be and have been doing the things muslims have done, and vice versa.

PS 1: THe reference of past, is probably 1984, CC.

PS 2: YOu mean the killing of every tenth man, OTB?(Decimere from Latin).
 
Sander said:
THe Islam is NOT inherently violent, and has not caused any violence BY ITSELF.

You have presented no evidence from the Koran, no evidence from history, no understanding of the subject, not anything, yet I am the bad guy for giving only "anecdotes"? How about this- you read what you are talking about and stop spewing Left Muslim proporganda.
but it is the MEN who are violent
Men like Muhammed. Get your history straight, Muhammed was *not* the accepted version of Jesus. Anyway, true for the most part, but still, I would argue that Islam is an outlet for that violence.
HE is to blame for the deaths caused, NOT the Koran
Then explain to me some of the more violent passages in the Koran.
ANother thing is the use of the Islam as an excuse. When a king needs and excuse to wage war, he says "INfidels!" and that's it. That does NOT mean that Islam is violent.
True for the most part, but he should *not* have that right. I know that Christianity had a similar period, but that is 300 years in every direction.
Thus my poin that if CHristianity was in the same position, CHristians would be and have been doing the things muslims have done, and vice versa.
Then explain to me the *mysterious* lack of Lebanese Maronite sucidie bombers? Yeah, they have done som bad, bad stuff, but the Maronites did not start the war, and they are not the ones responsible.
PS 1: THe reference of past, is probably 1984, CC
Very correct.
 
You know why I haven't provided evidence? Because I detest those anecdotes. Yes, there are some violent passages in the Koran, but I've also heard muslims refer to some of those violent passages as being a reference for battles of the MIND for instance.
Get your history straight, Muhammed was *not* the accepted version of Jesus
When did I say that?
True for the most part, but he should *not* have that right. I know that Christianity had a similar period, but that is 300 years in every direction.
Time has nothing to do with it, because Christianity started out a long time before Islam even came into being.

Then explain to me the *mysterious* lack of Lebanese Maronite sucidie bombers? Yeah, they have done som bad, bad stuff, but the Maronites did not start the war, and they are not the ones responsible.
Now, I'm no up to date with Lebanon, but I'd like to say that they are NOT in the same position as the Arab world. PART of the Arab world sees the western world as evils trying to corrupt the world, or something similar, and THEN they take up their weapons. HOWEVER, this is NOT the position the Lebanese Maronites are in.

You know, let me say this:
If a lot of completely religious muslims are AGAINST all of the violence, bombs etc. then HOW can you possibly claim that that violence is caused by the same religion. Religion is used as an excuse, for some as a reason, but either way, you cannot blame the religion for the deeds of men.
 
Darn, the invalid_session ate up my first post. I'll have to summarize here.

I agree with Sander, religion has nothing to do with the actions of individuals.

There are minorities in the United States who claim that the government should reimburse them for the slavery and other great sufferings that were imposed on their ancestors. Should I, as a white person, be held responsible for these past actions? No, because I am an individual and I am responsible for my own actions, not for the deeds that were done by others with my skin color. The same goes for religions as well. A person who causes harm in the name of [insert religion here] is responsible, not the book that he reads. If something has power, there are people out there who will seek to abuse with that power.

Have you ever considered the possibility that YOUR bible might not have as many violent parts in it as a VERSION of the Koran because the writers covered up some ugly facts in the Bible while the ones who wrote the Koran might have accepted the history? Interpretation and translations of ancient manuscripts change what the original meanings were. I think it is fair to say that examples from your Koran are pointless here. Please stick to the general meaning of it, which is.... *suprise*... PEACE AND LOVE FOR MANKIND! Say, that sounds just like what the Bible says. Odd, no?

OTB, how can you expect Crapwriter to get his definitions straight if he can't spell a lot of words, including his own name, correctly?
 
Sorry guys, but while I am still not convinced of CC's argument, I think you are being a bit contradictory.

Sander, for instance, you have taken a position earlier that guns increase the likelihood, the probability of crime, and thus are dangerous per se.

Now you are taking a position that an ideology does not have that same function? Couldn't an ideology help propel or legitimate violence, there by increasing the probability of violence done in the name of that faith. If so should we be so fast to discount religious ideologies?

I will agree, that at the end of the day, its the man not the message that should be responsible. But men frame their actions in their own perceptions of the world. If one perceived a world in which the World of God is threatened by the world of material, and that salvation only lies in the world of God- why would that not justify violence in the name of perceived righteousness?

Why is the argument here so different?

That people have committed violence in the name of Christianity is relevant in that there is a comparison between Christianity and Islam illustrate religions as forms of ideology that legitimize what would otherwise be illegitimate acts of violence.

I would also accept that the man who reads and is inspired by Mein Kampf is to blame for the acts he takes in furthering Hitler's vision. But I am also not willing to dismiss the idea that the ideology itself shares some blame for that violence.

Now step back again. We normally encounter different ideologies as adults and perhaps as part of our higher education. But if you were raised in an area in which all you were fed was an ideology, wouldn't you believe it?

I mean isn't that why children are raised to be Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Quakers, Amish, Buddhists, Hindus, Buddhists, and then have a difficult time divorcing themselves of that belief system?

Belief systems, especially those educated (which can be seen as a synonym for indoctrination) in the young shape the perceptions of those individuals, often leading to their actions as adults.

While I would agree with you that the other structural factors at work probably have more to do with Islamic violence, you guys have not made this argument very strong by offering counter positions to CC's points (as off topic as they may sometimes get).

Rather, you need to argue how ideology is not a factor or why other factors are more important than Islamic ideology. Until that can be done I don't think you can be intellectually honest by discounting islamic ideology as a causal force.
 
Ozrat said:
OTB, how can you expect Crapwriter to get his definitions straight if he can't spell a lot of words, including his own name, correctly?

Don't tell anyone, but I secretly harbor an optimistic streak. ;)

OTB
 
Okay welsh, as I've said before, I've been rethinking the guns thingie. So that doesn't go anymore.. ;) (Besides, there STILL is the difference of a lethal weapon and a possible cause).

As for why the ideology is NOT to blame, welsh. That is very simple, because the ideology does not, in the end, try to convey a message of violence, it tries to convey a message of brotherly love(Ultimately), even though some parts sway from that message, it DOES try to convey that message. Which is te simplest reason, why the ideology is not to blame.

And as I said, if men who believe the exact same belief can have different opiinions on wars, then how can you still claim that it is the fault of the ideology? It is then obvioyus that the thing to blame, is the mind of the reader.
 
Sander said:
As for why the ideology is NOT to blame, welsh. That is very simple, because the ideology does not, in the end, try to convey a message of violence, it tries to convey a message of brotherly love(Ultimately), even though some parts sway from that message, it DOES try to convey that message. Which is te simplest reason, why the ideology is not to blame.

And as I said, if men who believe the exact same belief can have different opiinions on wars, then how can you still claim that it is the fault of the ideology? It is then obvioyus that the thing to blame, is the mind of the reader.

Sander- but isn't that what CC's saying?" That the ideology doesn't just preach brotherly love but also violent converstion of the non-believer? In a sense can't some ideologies be more pro-violent than others?

True, people can disagree. ANd while we can't put all the blame on ideology (and thus reduce men to mere mindless automatons), we can ask whether some ideologies are more prone to violence than others. Isn't that a worthwhile question?
 
Well, no, it isn't what he's saying, he's saying that ISlam is much more prone to violence than Christianity, and I disagree.

For one, because I really don't think it has anything to do with the ideology, if a Christian wanted to jusify his killing of people, I am very certain that he could. It is the same with Islam, people will only kill if they want it. Not because of what their ideology says, they need to have a certain state of mind, or a certain goal tocommit those murders, and it is only when they have that, that they will use anything to say that it is justified. This might be unconscious or not, but it is mostly like this.
The one notable exception being children who are effected by violence-preaching influences when they are young. But with those children, I still contend that it is NOT the Islam that is more prone to violence, but the men. This is very simply made evident by the fact that others, who adhere the same beliefs, do NOT think that violence is what is asked for in the Koran.
 
As my english teahcer said,(in all his wisdome) "Anyone that goes through the koran or the bible with and agenda can find something that support his views."
 
I agree with welsh, this went the wrong way. CC has been arguing in the method of "I have an opinion and will only argue for the opinion, refusing to see any counter-arguments", but now, uhm, "we" are doing the same thing. This doesn't work well, and is very gun-threaderish.

Point: the Qu'uran contains passages referring directly to violent acts. The New Testament part of the Bible does not (I will assume this is so, unless someone can name a passage pointing the other way)

Unless someone has any good argument against this, you'd have to admit he's right here. How heavy the Old Testament's influence on Christianity is is a different matter of debate, though, and differs per church.

Let me try a statement 'n a question:

Christianity and Islam are major and old religions. It's safe to assume the Western culture is partially built on the Christian religion, and the "Arabic" (to use the term loosely) culture partially built on the muslim religion. As both religions are a direct influence to the culture, which are a direct influence on how much a person is prone to violence (let's not start nurture vs. nature debate), it's also safe to say both religion have an influence on how violent people are that are raised in its culture (this includes, by the way, atheists raised in the Rich West. Think about it).

So the question is; which religion has/had a more violent influence on the culture it created? I don't think this is a question we can answer this easily, no matter how many anecdotes we fire at it. For instance, you could argue the "Arabic" culture showed more violence in its early days and this proves the islam is more prone to violence, OR you could argue the culture now seems a culture of violence because its early days were very violent because of OTHER influences than the Qu'uran.

I mean, let's face it, religion is only one of the influences on the "muslim culture", so the case is not as black-and-white as CC puts it.

CC: for Frith's sake, STOP MISSPELLING MY NAME, it's not funny anymore. Also, that was a weak counter-argument to your misuse of the term semite, and you know it.
 
I agree with Kharn here, but this makes the thread another useless spin-around., You won't find the answer no matter how hard you try, because there is no answer.

....

I'm done. ;)
 
Sander said:
I agree with Kharn here, but this makes the thread another useless spin-around., You won't find the answer no matter how hard you try, because there is no answer.

Not exactly my point. It's always useful to seek answers. That's what life's about, for a big chunk of it, so no debate is pointless if its leading somewhere, and that's been the biggest trouble here.

Also, that was a very Dutch thing for you to say. Ehehehe.
 
Damn you Kharn! Hehe

But the problem with this debate would be that it's already been chewed up, spit out and whatnot. There probably isn't any way of getting anywhere with this thing, because everything has either been said, or it's aother goddamned anecdote. Bah.

Unless CC can prove me wrong...
 
Not entirely useless, just entirely said before. Why can't you argue about something more intresting like margarine or butter, or the dangers of media on a 1000 monkeys on a 1000 type-writers or something D:
 
OK, I hope this adds to this discussion-
ANother article from the Economist from its Survey on Islam-

Hope you find this interesting
SURVEY: ISLAM AND THE WEST

The gods that failed

Sep 11th 2003
From The Economist print edition

The Islamists are exploiting a vacuum

SINCE September 11th, discussions about Islam have abounded with phrases such as “political Islam”, “Islamic fundamentalism”, “Islamism”, “radical Islam” and so forth. Almost nobody agrees with anybody else about what these terms mean or how they overlap. The body of ideas associated with Sayyid Qutb—the notion that man has only one choice to make, between jahiliyya or submission to the law of Allah in its entirety—is only one, extreme, form of Islamic fundamentalism. And fundamentalism is only one part of the bigger category of “Islamism” or “political Islam”.

In one recent book, an American academic, Noah Feldman, calls Islamism “a comprehensive political, spiritual and personal world-view defined in opposition to all that is non-Islamic.” In another, a former CIA official, Graham Fuller, argues that an Islamist is “one who believes that Islam as a body of faith has something important to say about how politics and society should be ordered in the contemporary Muslim world and who seeks to implement this idea in some fashion”. A French scholar, Olivier Roy, prefers a narrower definition: political Islam is the attempt to create an Islamic state.


Whatever the definition (and there are plenty more to choose from), the main point of interest here is the growing tendency in the Islamic world for Muslims to turn to religion as a solution or part-solution to political problems. Muslims are not alone in this. Many Americans (and Indians, and Israelis) believe that Christianity (and Hinduism, and Judaism) have something important to say about how politics and society should be ordered. But the extent of the support for political Islam sets it apart. One reason, argues Bernard Lewis of Princeton University, one of Islam's foremost (and controversial) interpreters in the West, is simply that most Muslim countries are still profoundly Muslim, in a way that most Christian countries are no longer Christian. But why?

The devout Muslim might answer that Islam is just a more successful religion than its competitors. It is indeed the world's fastest-growing religion. But another possible answer—or maybe just a less positive way of saying the same thing—is that in the Muslim world the values that compete with religion have been less successful than they have in the West. And the difficulty for the Muslim world is that a lot of these values—democracy, liberalism, “modernity” in general—are values to which many Muslims themselves say they aspire. If growing numbers of Muslims are nowadays looking to God for answers to their social, political and economic problems, it may be because other gods have failed them.

Since colonial rule, most Muslim countries have found it difficult to create successful democracies. Few joined the spurt of democratisation that followed the cold war. Only one out of five countries with a Muslim majority is a democracy. In some places—Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey, Bangladesh—democracy has made bigger strides than in others. But the overall picture is bleak. Indonesia has only recently emerged from the long years of dictatorship under Sukarno and Suharto; Pakistan, though it has bits and pieces of democracy, is run by a military dictator; Iran is poised between revolution and counter-revolution. Over the past quarter-century, says the Brookings Institution, GDP per person in most Islamic states has fallen or remained the same.

Islam's Arab core, which contains fewer than one in five of the world's Muslims but produces a disproportionate share of its terrorists, is in a particular mess. The social contract once made possible by energy riches—you put up with autocracy and we will see to your material needs—has collapsed with the falling oil price and a rising population. In July last year, Arabs were shocked by the findings of a report from a panel of academics for the United Nations Development Programme, spelling out the full extent of this failure. For 20 years, said the UNDP, growth in income per head in the 22 Arab countries has been lower, at an annual 0.5%, than anywhere else in the world except sub-Saharan Africa. One in five Arabs still lives on less than $2 a day. Around 12m people, or 15% of the workforce, are already unemployed, and on present trends the number could rise to 25m by 2010.

The UNDP blamed these failures not on a lack of resources but on the survival of absolute autocracies, the holding of bogus elections, confusion between the executive and the judiciary, constraints on the media, and a patriarchal and intolerant social environment. The 280m Arabs spend a higher percentage of GDP on education than any other developing region, and yet some 65m adults are illiterate and about 10m children still have no schooling at all. There is little Arab writing, or translation from other languages: in the 1,000 years since the Caliph Mamoun, noted the authors, the Arabs have translated as many books as Spain translates in a single year.

Problem or solution?
Is Islam one of the causes of this pattern of failure? To a lot of Muslims, the question is upside down. Political Islam, or “Islamism”, starts from the opposite proposition: that the failures of the Muslim world are caused by having neglected Islam, not by having embraced it. “Islam is the solution,” say many Islamist political parties. The appeal of this simple slogan is greatly enhanced by the belief of so many Muslims that other answers have already been tried, and found wanting.

In the Arab world, some countries, such as Morocco, Jordan and the Gulf states, have clung on to semi-feudal forms of government. But the dominant tried-and-wanting answer following colonialism was pan-Arab nationalism, a socialist doctrine combined with the idea of uniting the Arab-speaking peoples in a single state. The theoreticians of this secular creed argued that the colonial powers had deliberately enfeebled the Arabs by chopping what should have been one nation into small and artificial states. “The Arabs”, says the constitution of the Baath Party, “form one nation. This nation has a natural right to live in a single state.”

For a while, helped along by the charisma of Nasser, Arab nationalism galvanised the masses and gave the Arabs a new self-confidence. But in the end, it failed. Attempts to combine the artificial post-colonial states fizzled out. Arab nationalism also failed to defeat Israel—not even Nasser's charisma survived the humiliation of 1967's six-day war—or to develop proper democratic institutions, or to win and hold the people's loyalty. By the end of the 20th century, writes Adeed Dawisha, the author of a splendid recent obituary of the movement, little remained but “the debris of broken promises and shattered hopes.” This is the debris into which political Islam is sinking its roots. The next section looks at two countries to show how.
 
Don't tell anyone, but I secretly harbor an optimistic streak.
I realized that after you warned me at DaC instead of impulse-banning. I did not swear for another 300 posts, remember?
Sander- but isn't that what CC's saying?" That the ideology doesn't just preach brotherly love but also violent conversation of the non-believer? In a sense can't some ideologies be more pro-violent than others?
That is exactly what I have been trying to convey in less eloquent and more misspelled words.
I am very certain that he could.
In obtuse terms. One book in the bible preaches that people of different religions go to hell, which could lead some to the idea that forceful conversions is ultimately good for the race of people. That is stretched considering that it goes against everything else. There is no part in the Koran where it forbids the slaying of a male, adult infidel- there are literally hundreds in the NT. And that is generous to Islam, once you consider some of the more Mien Kampf-esque lines.
the Islam
FOR Christ’s SAKE, ILL STOP WRITING KHRAN IF YOU STOP DOING THIS! IT IS EITHER ISLAM OR MUSLIM!
So the question is; which religion has/had a more violent influence on the culture it created?
Hard question to answer, but I would go yes, particularly once you compare a Pars to a modern Iranian.
I mean, let's face it, religion is only one of the influences on the "muslim culture", so the case is not as black-and-white as CC puts it.
O, you mean like this..
I agree with him on "Great Religion", oddly enough. Anyone who has read the Koran will realize that duality that settles in.
 
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