Should the Big Guns skill exist?

Yes, I think it should exist.
If you level up Ballistic Firearms or whatever then you can use miniguns but not rocket launchers. Level up Explosives and vice versa. But Big Guns is an overlapping skill, you improve it and you can use any and all heavy weaponry to their full extent.

Hell, I want to see more overlapping skillsas well as synergies in general in more RPG's.

 

Yeah, this thread really made me want to have more dual ability weapons.
I'll add it to my Fallout wishlist

 

I think in effect you could roll NV's Explosives builds/Skill with a set of heavy-ordnance weaponsets like Anti-Tank Rifles, Mortars, Miniguns, to justify it well as an independent Skill. If we're talking about an NV style 3D Fallout game, do the same with the throwable Explosives. Vegas managed to make good use of Explosives as a "Utility Skill" outside of combat too, so it applies well to Big Guns.

I also agree with the cross-over idea, for instance a Gatling Laser requiring some investment in Big Guns or Small Guns that tow the line, like LMGs (though IMO you could place LMGs firmly on the Big Guns side of the fence and have it be the other way around, requiring some light investment in Small Guns)

In terms of early-game balancing, in my Fallout PnP I effectively did the above with Big Guns and I had a player who tagged it at character creation. In effect he started the campaign with a Thump Gun which provided him with much higher damage compared to his fellow party members, as well as some AoE and the ability to flush the enemy out of cover, but a lot of the time he ended up having to rely on the others or fall-back on something else has he was highly challenged by supplying ammunition for the thing. In effect, it was a risk-reward investment in that when he was loaded he was a damage monster at early-level, but it was extremely easy to catch him with his pants down and no primary weapon.

You could do the same in a Fallout game proper, make taking esoteric/high-level weapons as Tags a "Risk-reward" decision.

 

We don't need a "weapon" skill at all then if it is going to be that broad, just branch out instantly.
I'd just design things fluidly.

A gun that can have explosive rounds will perform at about 70% ability (reload, aiming, equipping, jamming etc) but will only perform at 100% if you have at least 2:1 ratio of a skill to ability %. So you need 60 Explosives and 100 Guns to use a regular firearm with explosive bullets.

As to Flamer, I'd just make it exclusive to Big Guns as there is no other skill for it to fit in. I'd also add in some kind of fire skill like Pyromania or whatever which handles how well you can use Flamers, Incinerators, Flame Pistols, Molotovs and whatever else where it would get the same kind of bonus. So 100 Big Guns means operating a Flamer at 60% capacity, you need 80 Pyromania to operate it at 100%. This would obviously mean that the skill point investment has to be worthwhile though, so I would make setting people on fire insanely powerful, like, if you set someone on fire they're not going to just walk around shooting at you while having fire coming off of their body. No they're going to run away in pure agony and most likely succumb to the flames even after only spraying them with fire a little bit.

So, first of all I would sit down to go over what weapons are going to be in the game in the first place. These weapons have to be in the game, if we can't meet the deadline then they'll have to be added in in a post-release update. I would then go over what weapons there are and where they fit in and design the skills accordingly.

Some skills would branch off. Some would synergize with one another. Some require another skill to make a weapon operate at peak efficiency. I don't like the idea in RPG's that things have to be so strict. That a skill has to be completely isolated to its own field and cannot overlap.

Oh and if you have Energy Weapons or Firearms then you can automatically use any rifle belonging to another category to at least 33% efficiecy (3:1 ratio), but when you invest points into the skill it does belong to you won't see an improvement in its efficiency until you go above what it got from the other skill. So 100 Firearms gives 33% for Flame Pistol, but for Flame Pistol to be at 40% you need 40 Pyromania. (obviously this would be informed to the player so they won't think that it is bugged)

Spoiler: not necessarily relevant

But then again, I'm someone who would love to have a skill list of like 60 skills and have different types of skills where some are dicerolled so they require 1 skill point per 1 increase (1:1) and there'd be threshold skills (like Persuasion) which would go from 1-10 where skill increase is 10:1 and for there to be minor skills which aren't used as often as other skills so they don't warrant a big investment and the game shouldn't shoehorn in a bunch of bullshit reasons for it to justify its existence so they'd be a single point skill that require various skill points to increase depending on what it is. So... I dunno, Juggling. It's 15 skill points. Invest it and you can now juggle. I would also change Charisma completely so that every point invested unlocks a new ettiquette(?) like in Shadowrun.

I don't like the idea of "this is a skill, it has to be designed to be like the other skills". I'd design things to make sense based on what they are, how they're used in the game and how often they're used.

I don't think this system would work well in Fallout though. It's a system that would work better for a game with multiple characters like Wasteland.
Fallout's skill system needs to be concise. It shouldn't be bloated. So we're going to have stupid skills no matter what we do.

So Fallout... Hmmm..

01 Unarmed
02 Melee (will split at 50 to Short blade, long blade and blunt weapons)
03 Firearms (will split at 50 to handguns, shotguns and rifles) ((SMG falls into Handgun through perks and assault rifles and snipers will be defined by perks)
04 Energy Weapons (Splits at 50, laser, plasma, tesla)
05 Explosives
06 Throwing
07 Big Guns
08 Pyromania

Is a few skills. Would probably end up being 1 or 2 more that I can't think of right away.
It's not that big of an increase from FNV, 3 new skills and 3 skills split after the 50 mark.

 

What I suggested wasn't really that broad. It was effectively just rolling Miniguns, Bozars and Flamers into Explosives and renaming it Big Guns. In a tabletop/isometric setting at the least I also think Traps and Throwing should still be seperate skills, albeit given far more utility than in the original games.

 

This is a good question. Personality, I think the Big Gun skill should exist. That was one of the things I was disappointed about with New Vegas. A machine gun is much different than a pistol and there should be a skill that reflects that. Although I would also argue that Strength should play a big part with how well a character is able to use the Big Gun skill.

 

Wall of Text Warning. Read at your own risk:

The RPG system I'm developing has skill branches. You have the "general" skill and then that skill "branches" into several ones, that might also branch into a third one.

This sounds confusing but the way it works is that the "general" skill is the basic knowledge/handling of the skill as a whole. For example the skill "Firearms" is the general know-how and know-why of using all ballistic or similar weapons. Once the character reaches 5 ranks of Firearms skill (the maximum a skill can reach is rank 10) they have the option of starting the "specialization" skills, these are the branches.

So taking a look at the Firearms skill. Once a character has 5 ranks of it, it can then start taking ranks of it's specializations One Handed, Two Handed and Heavy. I'm inclined to add specializations to these ones too, but not sure yet (I will have to finish the combat rules first and the XP award system to know if it's balanced to add these in). These extra specializations would be Automatic and Semi-Automatic.

So the Firearms skill would look something like this:

• Firearms - ranks 1 to 10 - after reaching rank 5 has the option of specialize into:
  • One Handed - ranks 1 to 10 - Not sure yet but after reaching rank 5 might have the option of further specialization into:
    • Automatic
    • Semi-Automatic
  • Two Handed - ranks 1 to 10 - Not sure yet but after reaching rank 5 might have the option of further specialization into:
    • Automatic
    • Semi-Automatic
  • Heavy - ranks 1 to 10 - Not sure yet but after reaching rank 5 might have the option of further specialization into:
    • Automatic
    • Semi-Automatic

There are other rules about skills that might be relevant. If a character reaches level 5 and level 10 on a skill or any specializations, they can then buy a Talent from that skill or specialization Talent Tables. So if a character reaches level 5 or 10 of Firearms, they can then, for example, buy the talent "Quick Reload" which allows to reload Firearms faster than normal. If they reach level 5 or 10 One Handed, they can then, for example, buy the talent "Double Wielding" which allows the use of one One Handed firearm on each hand, with lower penalties than not having the Talent.

In my system, all skills have multiple specializations.

Another thing about skills is that they are really "tied" to their main Attribute. This means that the character can't buy ranks in a skill, unless they have the same or higher value on that skill's Attribute.
For example, the Firearms skill is linked to the Perception Attribute, so if a character has 6 Perception, they can buy skill ranks until they have 6 ranks in the Firearms skill and on any of it's Specializations. The maximum value on any Attribute that a normal human can have are 10.
This is a way of preventing ridiculous situations that can be seen in some RPG systems, where a total idiot could get a high Science skill, just by investing in the skill. In this system, this is impossible.

One thing that is a bit different from other RPG systems I know, is that "smart" characters are also reliable in combat. Energy Weapons skill is linked to the Brains Attribute. The reasoning for this is that Energy Weapons require calculations to be able to aim and shoot perfectly. They require precise calibration and other intelligent sounding stuff.
This is, after all, a system that doesn't take itself seriously.
So characters with high "Intelligence" can become deadly if they invest in the Energy Weapons skill and it's specializations.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I haven't bragged about this in more than an year or so.

 

It took a minute to realize that nothing in this thread is about Fallout, it seems to be about New Vegas.

Fallout2 actually does this. Certain NPCs with higher skill than the player character will perform the task rather than the PC.

Aha, definitely not Fallout; V.A.T.S. doesn't exist in Fallout, aside from there being a location in the games called the [FEV] Vats.
____

In the original games, Big Guns is further restricted by the character's strength attribute. If their strength is less than seven, then they cannot hold the weapon accurately, and suffer a penalty. Yet another thing Bethesda screwed up.

Heavy weapons in Fallout are well worth the skill and stat requirements.

 

Take Fast Shot, then invest in Big Guns -> profit. Hell, combine it with the usual sniper archetype perks like the Sniper perk (especially since this perk isn't mutually exclusive with Big Guns), Better Criticals, and Bonus Rate of Fire, and even Action Boy, and you get to go full auto on literally any encounter within 2-3 turns.

 

Big Gun in Fallout 1/2 is terrible idea.

You got access to it in middle game. Fallout 1 is Boneyard's library, or Harry company. Fallout 2 is farming random encounters from Redding to New Reno if you want it in early level, because quest reward is level locked (Morton quest require Sheriff's approval require level) or getting to NCR which is middle game.

And if you think that's bad, the excution is more terrible. Flamers is short range burst fire with spread damage. The Miniguns or M60 or SAWS is... not as damaging as you would expect from a middle game weapons. And Rocket Launcher is both heavy and expensive to use frequently.

In Fallout Tactic it's better because you have approriate enemies for it, with approriate usage. SM is bullet sponge, and robots is well armored tthat Small Gun weapons are not enough.

Fallout New Vegas I cant comment because I dont use it. I hate the bag on the back look.

 

I don't think big guns should exist. I think weapons should have skill % requirements as well as STAT requirement.

You should also have less or more incentive to develop your characters playstyle around the weapons you find.

Sniper Rifle. Required Skil Guns 60% 6 Perception

Light Machine Gun Required Skill Guns 60% 6 Strength 6 Endurance

ect.

 

Skills in Fallout are generalized abstractions. like Science & Doctor.

The names for Guns & Big Guns (and Energy weapons) are accurate, and yet a bit of a misnomer, as they —nearly— equate to: Civilian (conventional) & (exotic) Military & "frikken lasers!". Big Guns includes Flamers, and Rocket launchers too.

...They are more or less like separate skills for automobiles with automatic transmission vs. Manual Stick-shift; in the loose sense that someone with experience driving their car (with automatic transmission), would be expected to be able to handle a similar vehicle with automatic transmission.

Originally, I didn't care for the melee weapons skill applying to just about every hand held non-firearm; in theory meaning knives, swords, flails, and even whips... as they are all uniquely different disciplines, but the skills in Fallout encompass the every-man's grasp of the task & category, rather than nail down any specifics.

It's a system that can abstractly apply to any RPG character. So it's a small guns skill for a revolver specialist —and for a shotgunner; with a Big Guns skill used for either a mini-gun toting roid-warrior, or a rocketeer, or a firebug; because they are relatively esoteric weapons that not everyone would be expert in.

They are Big Guns in the similar sense that organic chemistry and nuclear physics are both ~Science stuff, and that elevator mechanics, and combustion engine mechanics... are Repairing stuff.

 

Skills are like playing an instrument. Mastery of one influences the development of another.

 

So... In all of this discussion, nobody is going to raise that Fallout, and ALL of it's primary design, is based on / taken from / inspired by GURPS.

And in GURPS, guns are defined into categories, within a category a character can 'cross-over' skills at a minor disadvantage, so a guy that can use pistols, will likely be able to use rifles or sub-machineguns as they all essentially function in the same way... These 'common' small-arms fall into the skill; 'Guns'. But, a pistol is vastly different to a rocket launcher, and so, within GURPS a separate skill exists as the character cannot 'cross-over' their understanding of small-arms, to operate heavy weaponry, to do so requires a different knowledge.

This entire thread opened on a false premise:

No, there is no "encouragement of play-styles" that's a derivative concept brought about by the gamification of the franchise. The game of Fallout has been ever more pushed into a homogeneous 'looter shooter' rather than a bespoke RPG. And more recently (Fallout 4 / Fallout 76) the horrible mutation of what the Perks system was supposed to be only further watered down and removed any of what was their function, as intended within Fallout. Moving the franchise further away from it's pen & paper origins, past simple gamification and well into console-ification in order to meet a bigger market.

Weapon skills exist in Fallout, because Troika (Black Isle) wanted to use GURPS as the core system for fallout, and those same weapon skills (albeit under different names) exist in GURPS. That's why they exist.

https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vault_13:_A_GURPS_Post-Nuclear_Adventure

This link clearly shows the original fallout designs of the GURPS skillset, including all variation of weapons skills. (scroll down a bit to see the skills list)

Also, as a side-note @Risewild are you familiar with the GURPS rules? Your proposals seem well meshed with the core rules.

 

I never played GURPS, but over the years I have looked into many P&P RPG games. I was always fascinated about RPG rules, stats, systems, etc. since I was a kid (back in the late 80's and early 90's).

I was always interested in these systems, and when I decided to make my own, I researched a lot of different ones. I can name "Old" World of Darkness, Cyberpunk 2020, Gamma World, Other Dust, Fallout, GURPS and DnD/ADnD. There's way more than those, but unfortunately, I really can't remember them anymore.

My system is supposed to be a mix of stuff I like from other RPG systems, changed by me and mixed with original stuff to stitch it all together so it works (or at least I hope it will work).
Another thing that is a mix of stuff is the setting/universe of my system, it's a mix of all things sci-fi and some more. I am making stats and rules for weapons, beings, vehicles, etc. from many iconic and some obscure sci-fi franchises (like phasers from Star Trek, blasters from Star Wars, carbonizers from Men in Black, Heat Rays from The War of The Worlds, Layden guns from Twenty Thousands Leagues Under The Sea, weapons from classic Fallout games, etc.).

I think it was @Atomkilla that asked me once if people would be able to play Fallout using this system. That made me think that I should add all things* Fallout to it, and then I thought I should add all things* Wasteland to it, then I started looking at ATOM Rpg too (I should look at Underrail also, now that I think about it), and then later (probably after the release of the first edition and get players input until it's refined, playable and balanced) expand to add all things from other post apoc universes.

*By all things I mean stats and mechanics for weapons, creatures/enemies, character systems (for example Perks [Fallout, ATOM RPG], Traits [Fallout], Quirks [Wasteland 2], and whatever else that's like that). All of these things from these games are edited and changed to fit in my system, but by having them, players can use them to play campaigns/adventures in those iconic universes without much effort.

My system is made for Game Masters to pick whatever mechanics they want to use and discard the rest. I am even planning on later add several alternative rules to be used instead of the core ones, so GMs can have options on what they want to use, instead of having to come up with their own from scratch.

Sorry about the wall of text .