Skill Level and Skill Threshold?

[TheWesDude]

yea its not a good system.

any system that allows you to gain over reptative skill uses without limits will never work because you can just macro them.

thats the worst part about beth skill systems. it encourages you to start a new game, run macros for hours on end without doing anything, and THEN you play the game.

reminds me of U8.

 

[Sander]

Off the top of my head, here are how I'd break up the groupsSorry if I miss any skills)

Now, explain why you think this is valid and why you want to change it like this, as I've said before, change for the sake of change is silly.

Firearms
Smal Guns
Big Guns
Energy Weapons

Melee
Melee Weapons
Unarmed

These groups are obvious, but probably will only lead to the combat skills becoming even more powerful.

Stealth
Sneak
Lockpick
(Possibly Traps)

Now think about why this could work. Sneaking is completely seperate from lockpicking, traps could possibly be synergetic with Lockpicking, but again, this would be completely seperate from sneaking (and stealing).

(Need a name for this group)
Repair
Science
(Possibly Traps)

This would be, probably, the most underpowered group, really. Unless the game changes and repair and science get more uses.

Social
Speech
Barter

This can easily be rationalised, but would probably also be too powerful.

Anyway, you're also leaving out a lot of skills, creating imbalance, which is bad.

 

[RPGenius]

Did it off the top of my head, which skills did I miss?
I can think now of Gambling and Outdoorsman, must have missed them before because I never use them.

 

[Sander]

Throwing
First Aid
Doctor
Steal
Gambling
Outdoorsman
Those are the skills you missed.

 

[Bloodlust]

I totally disagree on combining skills.I mean why do want to dumb down the skill system instead of trying to make it deeper and more complex?
What I think might fit into the special is some sort of skill synergy,like in diablo 2.It's logical that if you have a high speach skill,that can affect and give a small bonus to barter.It's also logical,if you have a 200 % small guns skills to give a small bonus to other firearms skills.You can kill a fly from 200 m distance with your l33t sniper rifle,but can't figure out how to pull the trigger on the plasma rifle? Geez.

 

[RPGenius]

Anything similar to this?

Since Fallout is based on P&P, why not use one of their ideas, have certain skills synergetic with others, for every 5 skill points in a firearms skill you gain one point in the other firearm skills? It would mean they grouped them into subsections of the skill list, but that'd also make it easier to tailor make your character concept; Being an all around theif with tags in Steal, Lockpick and Traps, say, would increase your skills in all areas of theivery beacuse of the boost to one.

Sorry if that wasn't worded too well.

 

[Bloodlust]

Yes simillar to that.A synergy might work well if it is implemented correctly (Aka:not making your hero Very powerfull).Combing plenty skills to one,just dumbs down the SPECIAL system which is something that noone here wants.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

No, merging the gun skills messes with the balance way too much. Currently, the three gun skills are probably the most important skills in the entire game, to then merge them to make them even more powerful completely throws off the balance.
Merging Doctor and First Aid, for instance, would be a much better idea, because those skills were underpowered in Fallout. There are more of these skills, too, such as Repair.

I'd disagree with you there, losing the energy weapons skill without unbalancing small and big guns could be easily done by just limiting the number, placement and ammo for energy weapons and making them extremely vaulable to their owners. Though if you wanted to balance things skill wise they could give the weapons another flag, as well as one/two handed, small/big guns skill have a flag for if it's an energy weapon. Then have the forumla change from the default small/big guns skill to say something like 50% appropriate gun skill + 50% science skill. Which would put an end to the mad rush to build up your energy weapons skill once you find an energy weapon (assuming you decide to use it) and also give science more value.

I used to be an advocate of merging first aid and doctor, but I'd rather they introduced a bleed system similar to JA2, first aid would stop you bleeding (it would be great to have it available in combat for a lower action point cost) but it wouldn't heal you. Only drugs, doctoring and time would actually heal you.

What I'd really like to see is unarmed and melee merged into one hand 2 hand skill. It would make melee/unarmed characters stronger as they wouldn't need to split their skill points and given that unarmed isn't meant to be a fancy martial art but the fisticuffs seen in the old matinee shows. If you're in a close quarters fight attacking some one with a iron pipe you're going to use your knees and elbows, kicks and punches as well as you weapon.

 

[RPGenius]

What I'd really like to see is unarmed and melee merged into one hand 2 hand skill. It would make melee/unarmed characters stronger as they wouldn't need to split their skill points and given that unarmed isn't meant to be a fancy martial art but the fisticuffs seen in the old matinee shows. If you're in a close quarters fight attacking some one with a iron pipe you're going to use your knees and elbows, kicks and punches as well as you weapon.

Maybe have a perk which means that if you attack someone with a melee weapon, you also get a free unarmed attack if you have nothing in your other hand. The attack needn't be anything fancy, the numbers would catch up to your opponent.
I'm really in favour of some work on the H2H system, so you can have different kinds of H2H fights, and fighters. A lot of that could be through Perks, which could allow melee damage absorbtion, extra attacks, etc.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

I might also like to see the implementation of unarmed knockdowns and unarmed strikes that either knock a weapon out of a hand or damage/cripple a limb. Anything to make it more fair for the dude who has to charge a guy with a minigun.

 

[RPGenius]

That would make a nice one, a nerve mass strike that cut action points in half for a number of turns equal to damage/5 round down, or something similar could work.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

a nerve mass strike

Anything like that would be better as the result of a critical hit rather than a planned attack.

 

[Sander]

Maybe have a perk which means that if you attack someone with a melee weapon, you also get a free unarmed attack if you have nothing in your other hand. The attack needn't be anything fancy, the numbers would catch up to your opponent.
I'm really in favour of some work on the H2H system, so you can have different kinds of H2H fights, and fighters. A lot of that could be through Perks, which could allow melee damage absorbtion, extra attacks, etc.

Keep in mind, though, that a lot of melee weapons are two-handed as well.

As for all of the hand-to-hand additions, try to keep in mind that this is not meant to be anything like the fancy martial arts you see in a lot of movies, but, as requiem for a dream said, a really rough form of street-fighting. Stuff like a 'nerve mass strike' absolutely not in keeping with that, and are rather unnecessary as well.
What you two, Lazarus and RPGenius, seem to forget is that knockdowns and crippling already happens in the current system with targeted attacks and there are already quite a number of unarmed perks.

Requiem: Balance can always be achieved in two ways, either through the system, or through the game environment. In that case, your suggestion could work. However, I think that the point of keeping big guns and energy weapons seperate was to force a choice between the mass destruction of big guns, and the more accurate and aimed at a single target of energy weapons.

As for the bleeding, I doubt it'd work as well in Fallout as it did in JA2, since Fallout is really a single-player game, making first aid instead of a terribly underpowered skill, now a really necessary skill.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

However, I think that the point of keeping big guns and energy weapons seperate was to force a choice between the mass destruction of big guns, and the more accurate and aimed at a single target of energy weapons.

I never saw it that way, it always came across to me as a holdover (leftover?) from something else. PnP games where you specialised in certain weapon types. Basically it never worked for me having a seperate skill when you've got those science and repair skills sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

As for the bleeding, I doubt it'd work as well in Fallout as it did in JA2, since Fallout is really a single-player game, making first aid instead of a terribly underpowered skill, now a really necessary skill.

I wouldn't expect it to be implemented exactly the same and it wouldn't need great skill to tie a strip of rag to staunch the flow of blood. Though the higher your skill could have you able to heal a little after applying first aid. In/after combat shouldn't healing be as important as hurting?

 

[Sander]

I wouldn't expect it to be implemented exactly the same and it wouldn't need great skill to tie a strip of rag to staunch the flow of blood. Though the higher your skill could have you able to heal a little after applying first aid. In/after combat shouldn't healing be as important as hurting?

Isn't that covered by the fact that you get hurt and use stimpaks in combat? Bleeding is an interesting idea, sure, but it would basically require the player to invest in first aid. I'd rather see first aid become better at actually healing hit points, so people would sooner use it in combat instead of stimpaks.
It would probably depend on the exact implementation whether this would work properly, though.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Too many short cuts, i.e. stimpaks and healing powders make the first aid skill worthless. I'd rather of seen a one use med kit thingy, say a single bandage that cost 3-4 aps to use in combat to heal you than the healing powder. Just the lack of these 'magic' items would of made the skills so much more useful.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

What you two, Lazarus and RPGenius, seem to forget is that knockdowns and crippling already happens in the current system with targeted attacks and there are already quite a number of unarmed perks.

I was not aware that any targeted strikes with your bare fists (that were not critical) could knock someone over. I know you can with your feet, of course.

 

[Arquebus]

I use Firstaid and Doctor quite frequently when I play any Fallout game. Idont think they are low used Skills and I think they should be kept separate.

Science and Repair should have more uses, Repair to maintain your weapons and armor for instanse, science as a means to maintain and possibly upgrade your electronics and energyweapons.

A new skill could be Animal handling to keep Dogmeat and your thrusted Brahmin fed, healed and happy. 5% + pe+ch

 

[RPGenius]

.
A new skill could be Animal handling to keep Dogmeat and your thrusted Brahmin fed, healed and happy. 5% + pe+ch

It comes under Outdoorsman, and why would it use Charisma? Only charismatic people have animals?
And I try not to thrust Brahmin

 

[Kahgan]

Actually, I felt Fallout Tictacs was pretty good with regards to the use of first aid and doctor. Usually, stimpacks worked as a last desperate solution. More often I would take cover and get the doctor over and use first aid.
I think it may have to do with what Sander said about first aid actually healing hit points, because in tictacs it was really more effective than stimpacks...unless you bandaged up your character to the point where he was allmost immobile.
But it did require the use of either a first aid kit or a doctor's bag. Also, there were a lot more chance to get those crippling injuries like crippled left arm, winded, stunned, crippled feet, etc and a lot more of them.
However, I am a bit uncertain wether it would actually work for a Fallout RPG.