Skill Level and Skill Threshold?

[Gangor]

Completely beside the point.
Gambling never becomes important because there's only one point to it: earning money. That's it, there's nothing more you can do with it than that, and since earning money is in no way essential to almost anything (and there are far better ways to earn money), the gambling skill is, while useful, not important at all. Almost everything can be done without the gambling skill, but the same isn't (and shouldn't) be true for other skills.

Apart from that, gambling can require a lot of skill (poker, blackjack and the like) and are hence not just dependant on luck.

Haven't you just explained why is isn't important enough to be a skill though? I think so...

Not my point at all.
I was talking about it being impossible to play that kind of perfectionist character (which is something very different from a perfect character). As I explained, the kind of character that doesn't go about doing something until they're very good at it.

You fail to explain why it would be important to allow this type of play. If you want a sandbox mode, why don't you just ask for it?

...
Fallout was *designed* as to give an experience close to PnP when most games were moving away from that direction. PnP is an essential part of Fallout's design, hence why you don't ignore it.

I'm not saying that you should ignore it, just that you don't have to faithfully represent a PnP game in CRPG format. Because the game is on a computer, we can use nifty computer magic to make it better.

 

[Sander]

Haven't you just explained why is isn't important enough to be a skill though? I think so...

Only if you take the point of view that any non-important skill is immediately superfluous. I know that gambling *does* improve roleplaying opportunity, for instance, and that pretty much validates its existence.

You fail to explain why it would be important to allow this type of play. If you want a sandbox mode, why don't you just ask for it?

Straw man. I never even mentioned sandbox mode or wanted it.

This style of play is justified in that there are many, many people who actually live like that. I know a girl with an absolutely fantastic voice, but she never started singing until she had practiced a lot by herself. Besides that, it was one example of how improvement by use is flawed by limiting the realistic character choices.
To take that to a more general example, 'off-screen' practice is hereby invalid. It becomes impossible to properly represent a character who practices to improve a skill, since no-one wants to actually jump up and down all the time to become better at jumping, it doesn't add anything to the gameplay.

I'm not saying that you should ignore it, just that you don't have to faithfully represent a PnP game in CRPG format.

That's not really a difference.

Because the game is on a computer, we can use nifty computer magic to make it better.

Yes, we could. Except that the character improvement by skill use isn't actually an improvement at all.

 

[Gangor]

Only if you take the point of view that any non-important skill is immediately superfluous. I know that gambling *does* improve roleplaying opportunity, for instance, and that pretty much validates its existence.

Ok, fine. But explain why a heavy gambler should not develop his gambling skills at the expense of other skills.

This style of play is justified in that there are many, many people who actually live like that. I know a girl with an absolutely fantastic voice, but she never started singing until she had practiced a lot by herself. Besides that, it was one example of how improvement by use is flawed by limiting the realistic character choices.
To take that to a more general example, 'off-screen' practice is hereby invalid. It becomes impossible to properly represent a character who practices to improve a skill, since no-one wants to actually jump up and down all the time to become better at jumping, it doesn't add anything to the gameplay.

Yes, lovely. But from a gameplay point of view, this sort of "practise" is stupid to encourage because it becomes a stupid and boring click-fest. If you want your character to practise a certain style of play, solve the side-quests first using the applicable skills and your character would then develop in the direction you desire.

 

[Sander]

Ok, fine. But explain why a heavy gambler should not develop his gambling skills at the expense of other skills.

Straw man. I never claimed they shouldn't.

Yes, lovely. But from a gameplay point of view, this sort of "practise" is stupid to encourage because it becomes a stupid and boring click-fest.

...
How can off-screen practice (ie. something you do not do) be a click-fest? Improving a skill through use (a la TES) is then the clickfest, which is what you were advocating.

If you want your character to practise a certain style of play, solve the side-quests first using the applicable skills and your character would then develop in the direction you desire.

No, it wouldn't. There has never been a game yet with a wide range of skills where each skill is as applicable as any other skill. This is quite simply undoable *if* you want that wide range of skills, which are present in Fallout.
Besides that, to allow character development along these lines one would have to offer equal opportunity for each skill/alignment/character disposition to allow people to really develop their characters along the lines they want. Now that would mean a shitload of quests, which are all balanced against eachother (as well as balanced item rewards), and that's even harder to do.

 

[Roshambo]

To get people to better understand more complex quest design, such as found in Fallout, it helps to think of them as "events". Each event is presented with a number of outcomes, each of which is made available through design to allow the player to take the character through the event to the outcome based upon the player's decisions relying on the character's abilities. Such as the famous Bates mansion quests in Arcanum, like stealing or killing for a book, or talking and getting the book.

Same outcome, different means, but not requiring much more work and yet allows for much role-playing potential and character development.

 

[E]

My $0.02

Skills can have points spent on them if they have been used at all in the last 1 ( or possibly even 2) character levels of play.

This should be obvious to the player i.e. a brightness change in the name of the skill.

This way you cannot learn to use an energy weapon until you have picked one up and fired it at least once.

Also useful as a reward for a quest or event
"Thanks for scaring of them raiders here's a long rifle and a few pointers for how to use and clean it"
Effect +2% small guns and Smallguns and repair skills are flagged as used and are now open (if they were not already) for improvment with skill points.

"You study the contents of the PIP tape and read about some new techniques for trauma medicine that could be useful if you could just figure them out.
Firstaid and Doctor are now flagged as used.

 

[Sander]

My $0.02

Skills can have points spent on them if they have been used at all in the last 1 ( or possibly even 2) character levels of play.

This should be obvious to the player i.e. a brightness change in the name of the skill.

This way you cannot learn to use an energy weapon until you have picked one up and fired it at least once.

Also useful as a reward for a quest or event
"Thanks for scaring of them raiders here's a long rifle and a few pointers for how to use and clean it"
Effect +2% small guns and Smallguns and repair skills are flagged as used and are now open (if they were not already) for improvment with skill points.

"You study the contents of the PIP tape and read about some new techniques for trauma medicine that could be useful if you could just figure them out.
Firstaid and Doctor are now flagged as used.

Ugh. No.
Think about it, this wouldn't add anything to the gameplay. All this would force players to do would be frantically searching around for something to use their skills on before levelling up.

 

[E]

What about a variation on that theme.
You cannot put points in a skill unless you have an item that is used with that skill in you inventory.

So no putting piles of points in to energy weapons until you pick one up.

New items may have to be added to cover all the skills on the list. but there aren't many skills that don't have an item, just Science, Outdoorsman and sneak off the top of my head and they could be possibly be covered by possessing a book on the subject.

 

[Sander]

What about a variation on that theme.
You cannot put points in a skill unless you have an item that is used with that skill in you inventory.

Right, and you get to improve the non-item related skills how then? Outdoorsman, speech, barter.
Aside from that, it still carries the same problem, only in the form of items instead of use. This just forces players to hang onto items that are somehow related to the skills.

So no putting piles of points in to energy weapons until you pick one up.

New items may have to be added to cover all the skills on the list. but there aren't many skills that don't have an item, just Science, Outdoorsman and sneak off the top of my head and they could be possibly be covered by possessing a book on the subject.

This is really, really ridiculous and a very convoluted (and unbalancing) solution to a basically non-existant problem.

 

[E]

This is really, really ridiculous and a very convoluted (and unbalancing) solution to a basically non-existant problem

I agree completely

I just want to make sure the scales are balanced against Oblivions "leave something heavy on the run key and go to work" skill system.

 

[10mmCurator]

Best idea I'd have on that score is this:

Set a limit per hour or whatever of uses of a skill, and the usage would increase with each level gain. (Now, I'm talking about like five minutes according to a real world clock and an hour on the game clock, so that you can't ham up experience by winding the clock forward constantly.)

Also, decrease the amount of experience gained per successful use by virtue of how difficult the skill check was. (When you are a level 20 lockpick you should not get a lot of exp for locking and unlocking a very simple mechanical lock.)

Set up a sliding scale for the exp that is appropriate to the usefulness of the skill and how often it is used legitmately in the game. (Traps= Not a lot os use, more exp per use, that kind of thing.)

That's my idea.

I like this idea because I always felt your skills should improve as you use them. I always felt that being able to put a point on a skill was a little odd. I felt that way because I always liked to have a certain realism to a game and it would make the person playing the game actually pay close attention to their character as he/she develops.

 

[PaladinHeart]

Skills Ideas

I was just reading a thread over at Bethesda where some people thought the skills should be the same, some thought they should be more diverse, and some thought there should be fewer skills. (although I think those were mostly laced with sarcasm).

I've been thinking about it, and really the best possible solution for firearms would be:
1. Accuracy skill. All weapons would use this. But only when determining whether or not you actually hit something.

Bear with me...

There would also be stat requirements and skill requiremets on each weapon. And if you do not meet these requirements then you're far more likely to blow yourself up.

2. Military skill. Basically the knowledge of small guns, rifles, rocket launchers, miniguns, etc.. The more complicated the weapon, the higher your military skill will have to be in order to use it.

3. Science skill. For laser and plasma weapons of course. Perhaps a combination of military and science skill would be required for some weapons. If the weapon has some sort of interface then it should require at least some science skill.

4. Required strength and intelligence. Kinda like the old requirements for strength, except some of the more advanced weapons would require some degree of intelligence before it could be used properly. Or maybe just skip on the intel requirement since science could be used as the requirement instead... really depends on the weapon. Like a rocket launcher should require some science, average intelligence, and a higher knowledge of military skill (wouldn't want to point it the wrong way after all).

The same system could be used for armor, equipment, etc.. Like stealthboys, geiger counters, etc.. I mean it doesn't really make much sense that an idiot with less than 10% science skill and 2 intelligence is capable of using, and even understand, a geiger counter.

Anyway I think this would be ideal because you could choose to keep using your pipe rifle with a someone low military skill and improve the accuracy to a good amount, and if you decide to start using an SMG you'd need to improve your military skill instead and yet still be just as accurate (unless your military skill does not meet the requirement of the SMG).

I'm not sure about how HTH, melee and throwing would fit into this. Accuracy should affect everything, to an extent, where one object is launched toward another (like fist into fast, lol). Military knowledge should of course increase your character's fighting ability with combat knives, unarmed skill, and grenades. But there should also be a martial skill that provides bonuses to melee skills (including accuracy and damage) for those wishing to excell in melee combat.

Throwing and unarmed combat should both mostly be based on accuracy and your strength skill. With grenades requiring some military and/or science skill depending on it being a frag or plasma or whatever.

 

[Sander]

Now explain to me why this change fits Fallout's design, and why you want to make the change at all.
As I've said so many times before: changes for the sake of changes are bullshit.

 

[PaladinHeart]

It's not just for the sake of change. I honestly like my idea better because it wastes little to no skill points on weapons that you may or may not ever use. It also makes more sense realistically.

I think that anyone with a reasonable intelligence could figure out how to use a firearm if they just spent say.. 10 minutes or so with it. Of course I know there are a lot of varied firearms out there that are made differently and some have quirky reloading, etc.. So I think the knowledge of the mechanical firearms should be one skill (military), the knowledge of scientific firearms another skill (science), and then your skill at actually hitting something should be yet another skill (accuracy).

I also think this would make it harder, and rightfully so, for characters with low intelligence to use power fists or a super sledge without hurting themselves. These weapons might be simple in use, but then... so are most guns... until you need to reload.

Here, let me help some of you with your next responses...
"Why do you want to change it!?! Fallout is perfect! Don't change anything!"

Well... some responses might include more expletives than that. Like every other word. But that'll have to do. xD

 

[Sander]

It's not just for the sake of change. I honestly like my idea better because it wastes little to no skill points on weapons that you may or may not ever use. It also makes more sense realistically.

The point of Fallout is not to be able to use anything whenever you want. When you put points into Small Guns you're not wasting any points, really, unless you plan on not using small guns at all.

I think that anyone with a reasonable intelligence could figure out how to use a firearm if they just spent say.. 10 minutes or so with it.

Err...anyone with any level of skill can use a firearm in Fallout already. So what's the point of your addition?

Of course I know there are a lot of varied firearms out there that are made differently and some have quirky reloading, etc.. So I think the knowledge of the mechanical firearms should be one skill (military), the knowledge of scientific firearms another skill (science), and then your skill at actually hitting something should be yet another skill (accuracy).

You do realise that there's a huge difference in weaponry between, say, a mini-gun and a pistol (hence the seperation of big guns and small guns in Fallout). Again: why do you want to change it. What error in Fallout do you think you're fixing with this change.

 

[Sorrow]

I think that anyone with a reasonable intelligence could figure out how to use a firearm if they just spent say.. 10 minutes or so with it. Of course I know there are a lot of varied firearms out there that are made differently and some have quirky reloading, etc.. So I think the knowledge of the mechanical firearms should be one skill (military), the knowledge of scientific firearms another skill (science), and then your skill at actually hitting something should be yet another skill (accuracy).

All firearms are military and scientific at the same time. I liked the small arms/energy weapons/big guns skills because they force player to choice between different weapon groups - also, they all include both handling and taking care of them.

 

[PaladinHeart]

Eh. Well the current system is fine I guess. I just thought it would be a better system if smarter characters could use a higher range of weaponry while the dumber characters would want to focus more of their points on accuracy.

This would also, as I pointed out, allow you to spend points on accuracy early in the game w/o feeling bad about it later. You know, like if you spend points on melee or unarmed at the beginning of Fallout 2.

Basically, I don't think you should have to spend points on a given weapon group in order to be able to use them accurately, if that's all that's available at the time, without it also giving you some sort of bonus towards future weapon skills. But also I think the option should be there to specialize in melee combat, or whatever, if that's your thing.

But annnyways. The current system is fiine I suppose. I just like my idea better. I'll shush now. xD

Wellll.... I forgot to mention that this would solve the age old issue of laser pistols and rifles being lumped together, regular SMG's, assaults rifles, sniper rifles, and even the 10MM pistols being lumped together. Whereas I've seen some people complain that a laser rifle and a small guns type rifle wouldn't be that much different where skill and accuracy is concerned.

Actually I kinda think the laser pistol would be easier to understand than something like a mauser. 8)

 

[Sander]

Eh. Well the current system is fine I guess. I just thought it would be a better system if smarter characters could use a higher range of weaponry while the dumber characters would want to focus more of their points on accuracy.

Yet you just pointed out that most guns are fairly straightforward to use.

Also, if there's nothing wrong with the system, then what is your motivation for changing it? Also, have you thought about how this change will affect skill balance and such?

This would also, as I pointed out, allow you to spend points on accuracy early in the game w/o feeling bad about it later. You know, like if you spend points on melee or unarmed at the beginning of Fallout 2.

It's perfectly alright to finish the game as a melee or unarmed character.

 

[PaladinHeart]

Well.. straightforward in firing and such, but it would be more complicated to actually take care of said weapon. Like reloading and such. I think a smarter character would have an easier time with this.

A dumb character could fire it. Sure. Maybe even aim it straight. But when it jams up, needs reloading, etc.. They might blow themselves up. xD

So while their chance to hit might be 95%, there may be hidden values, like a 50% chance of a critical failure where you lose your ammo, jam the gun, etc..

Whereas a character with a low chance to hit, like say.. 35%, might miss every time, but if they know how to use the weapon and take care of it then they wouldn't suffer the chance of any critical failures.

I think this would be a nice balance where you have to consider whether you want more accuracy or more weapon knowhow. Do you want to be able to definitely hit your target? Or would you rather eliminate the risks of your weapon blowing up in your face?

My motivation for changing it is that I think it would work better than the system in place, as I said before.

And yes I did think about the impact this would have on the skill balance in the game.

Accuracy: Anything beyond 100% is almost uselss for melee attacks, but would dramatically improve chances of critical hits and make all the difference with those extra long range shots.

Science: Useful for various quests, using computers, knowledge about various things, and keeping from blowing oneself up while using high tech weapons. Anything beyond 100% adds bonus damage to any scientific weapon, since you'd know the exact limits to which you could push said weapon.

Military: Basic knowledge about weapons, fighting, etc.. Anything beyond 100% would add a damage bonus to any weapon with this requirement, including combat knives and unarmed attacks.

Martial: Basic knowledge of fighting in melee combat. Includes hand to hand combat as well as all melee weapons. This skill would also increase your armor class vs melee attacks. The bonuses just keep getting better after 100%.

Explosives skill would give a bonus to grenades of course, and various other skills would apply where applicable.