Skills in Fallout 4: What We Know

There's also the matter that one shouldn't necessarily exclude the other. In Mount & Blade (not really an RPG, at least not fully, but it doesn't matter), for example, you do have points at level up to assign to weapon proficiencies, but you *also* get points for effectively using it (although it bugs me that ranged and horsed practice in the training field doesn't help the relevant skills).
 
Mount & Blade did so many things right. And for a game so focused on combat - it offers a better opportunity at avoiding it than most other RPGs. I mean, sure, you might end up in a battle, but you don't need to raise your sword once if you chose to develop a highly charismatic leader/trader character. You can become a king without actually killing anyone yourself.

One of the big issues with games like the new Fallout and Elder Scrolls titles is that they mostly have combat for the sake of combat, and they're all convinced that their greatest allure is their combat system (except maybe NV). But it's much more fun if combat is the means to an end. I enjoy shooting up the Shark club in Fallout 2, but if I just encountered a bunch of raiders in the wasteland who had the same skills and numbers I would more likely be annoyed.
 
Like many things some people don't recognize, New Vegas did this part well. Altho it could use a bit of a rework but they had the right idea. I am talking about the Chalenge Perks.
Instead of getting +points on a skill upon killing a thousand enemies you should get special perks after completing a specific challenge, some minor and simple like "Kill 1000 people with Guns" would net you the "Lord death perk" that grants you 2% extra damage to all gun attacks yadda yadda. Then there would come the more complx ones, like the 3 star challenges in GRA where they would ask you to kill a specific type of enemy with a specific set of weapons, that should also give you a special perk, then the non necessarily combat oriented like "meat of the Champions", devouring Mr House, The King, President Kimball and Caesar with the Cannibal perk would give you special perk that gave you temporary bonus when eating a human corpse (+1 in Luck, Charisma, Intelligence and Strength). That kind of thing is preferable.

Now with the systems we have in place is very very very obvious that Lockpicking needs some serious rework if not a merging with Repair into something like "Meachanics" for the low tech or physical locks and into Science for the hi tech ones like retinal scanners and such Or betetr yet take away Hacking away from Science and merge it with Lockpicking into the Infiltration skill. Which would not only have it's set of perks and bonuses per skill but would also be dependant on items (not just bobby pins) that you could craft. let me explain myself in a rambly manner:
Instead of gating Lockpicking attempts they should actually integrate many different types of locks, not just the same circular one that enven Hi-tech doors have for some reason, FO1 and 2 had 4 lockpick sets that would work on different types of doors, the regular Jill Lockpicks, Expanded Lockpick set, then the Electronic Lockpicks and the MKII Electronic Lockpicks. Could even expand it with some forme of crafting focused on Lockpicking where you make fake fingerprints, fingerprint dust (a Risky tool as you would still need to brute force it), Cyber Viruses, hell maybe they would allow you to fabricate Faction armor without having to kill for it, fake id cards, acces cards etc. That would also make the entire Sneaky thief gameplay much more unique and would still allow people to pick basic locks and attempt minor hacking while putting the more complex methods behind the higher skill levels with the crafting recipes and such. The only ones that would spend 3 hours looking at green text or twisting bobby pins on locks would be the noobs with low skill level, the focused characters would have many more tools at their disposal and they could even have special dialogue options if they discover information while hacking or breaking into someone's apartment safe.
 
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I don't really mind that much that the skills are gone persay. While I did always enjoy the system, you could game it somewhat easily to get the most of your skills even in Fallout New Vegas, where as this system does place harsher limitations on your character meaning they might truly be more unique to the next. Now provided a lot of what I saw what made characters unique in New Vegas was it's perks, you could only at most get 25 perks, and while one of our Wall-Texting friends (Curse you for typing more than me!) may think New Vegas doesn't have interesting perks, there are certainly a good few that allow for most styles of builds to be viable. Though to be fair, the guns stat is the one with the most potential for varied builds, whereas energy weapons you can superficially choose laser or plasma but the perks are low enough that you can just choose both. Unarmed and melee fall into caveat of it just being easier to carry 6 weapons for every situation, with only pyromania having any real push towards any specific weapon. With this new system you are really tied down to your choices though early in the game, you won't be able to be a master at everything. This means each new character you can gear towards different traits based on the SPECIAL system more easily. Now Fallout New Vegas's SPECIAL stats didn't account for much, you could easily leave a few stats underpar for various reasons and minmax into any character archetype almost. Perception was the most useless stat, only providing a boost to your radar range that really doesn't effect much and is supplemented with Ed-E. Provided there are probably more perception checks in speech than any other stat, but you can circumvent most of them. Charisma didn't affect much in game either, other than even fewer checks that don't matter much and is used mainly to boost your companion damage which is neglectable at best.

However while it might tie SPECIAL skills more into the mix and fix many of the problems of the Fallout 3/New Vegas system it cuts out the main draw to really any RPG. Progression. While yes, "You need multiple perks into a skill" does provide some form of progression it's weaker just numerically compared to the Int-bound skill system. As well it can have the possibility for more true-empty levels depending on perk variety as well as just in terms of perk usefulness. 20% better as a perk in new vegas is great, something you plan for, but your skills also provide better damage boosting or better boostings elsewhere, giving you two forms of something to gain from, making perks a lot more optional almost. Skills were what mattered most and perks went over it, balancing out a curve for gameplay through the levels. But starting with all of your stats themselves already made up, and only applying perks every level your curve slope is rather low and I feel it'll probably feel rather empty.

Though to be also fair I don't fully know how well you can game skills Fallout 2 or 1, while I'm familiar with them I never truly looked too much into that. I do know however that SPECIAL stats are given much more weight than 3 or New Vegas. Charisma is used for your companion count, which was cut. AP points matter a lot more, making agility much more useful. Int wasn't changed much from 2 to 3, but is useful in both. Perception has interesting effects that I'm not too knowledgable on, but from what it appears it affects a lot of when you go in combat, and how far away you are effective at, which is a hell of a lot more than in 3. Endurance is fairly the same, though health is probably (In the sense that it doesn't really matter at all in 3 and New Vegas except to survive a deathclaw while stimpack spamming or in hardcore mode) more useful in the sense you are more likely to be hit. As well Strength is relatively the same. Lastly luck is overall more useful in that it affects more even if I don't fully know how much it really effects.
 
However you slice it, the loss/merging into Perks of Skills for this series is a substantial one. One which I do not believe Bethesda is in any way capable of balancing, even without taking into account the CRPG/ARPG nature of the series. This is the company that gives unlockable rewards every level in their games but then fails to make combat/magic skills a viable option as your level rises without sinking those very same per-level rewards into damage/effectiveness boosting skills, a-la Skyrim. Skill Points per level gets around this issue, within reason.

I didn't like the loss of Skills from Deus Ex to Invisible War since it made the game much more akin to a cyberpunk shooter. Eidos Montreal, on the other hand, put a nice trade-off system on offer with Human Revolution's Augmentation system, which played into the world itself and the ways to go about levels and restrict content. (Still have no idea why they couldn't have utilized things like one-time or short-term use items like gas masks, ballistic vests, etc., like how Deus Ex allowed.)
 
Should be noted that I do personally agree that the loss of skills is rather bad. The game will mostly feel like a complete shooter rather than have many rpg qualities left, though to be honest the shooter qualities were the only ones with any form of a semblance of quality in 3 on bethesda's part.
 
Still, the fact they lost their meaning since Fallout 3 doesn't mean the right way to fix that is going forward in breaking it.
 
Becoming an NCR Ranger in New Vegas? What chu smokin' son?

It is a build-type, just like a BoS scribe is a build-type, etc.

You gotta make it clear you are using personal definitions or names for things.

I don't know, I have ran so many builds in New Vegas and a lot of them are pretty different. I don't usually try to fit them in a "class" type rather than a character driven one. New Vegas also has more support for non violent runs than Skyrim (like Skyrim has no support for them). So I oncea ran a successfull Sleazy Slaesman run. I relied on Sneak, Barter and Speech a lot. Armed Goodsprings for the fight with the Powder gangers and while the battle was going on I stole their stuff and went back to be thanked by the townies for helping them. Went to primm and sold their shit. I even made it to General Oliver (This character was also a frumentarius) and convinced him to retreat. It was the first time I made both a "Loot all the things" run and a comple pacifist playthrough. It costed me some quests as I didn't allow companion kills either; and made it mostly work with a Legion character, the BOS Bunker slef destruction could count as murder but it was done without me entering combat or shooting anyone so I let it slide. New Vegas has a lot of RPG elements and it implemented skills much better than 3 by actually giving use to the Non combat skills other than speech.

The skill system does need some work, it needed it back i nthe turn based days too. maybe implement some of the things we have said in this thread like my idea for either expand Lockpicking and Hacking by combining them into the Infiltration skill or just improve the mechanics on their own. There is a lot of things to do to expand on it.
But getting rid of it and turning it into Borderlands was most definetly the absolute worst thing they could've done short of just turning the game into Farcry or COD. It's like Bethesda didn't learn a thing from Obsidian. Hell maybe they got pissed at Obsidian for making an actual RPG on the franchise again (even with it's flaws) and have it stand next to their mediocre attempts at the genre.
 
Yet New Vegas has less focus on Combat all the time and it has numerous ways to solve quests without shooting a bullet yourself.
 
Yet New Vegas has less focus on Combat all the time and it has numerous ways to solve quests without shooting a bullet yourself.

I tried to do a Legion run without holding a single gun in the game. I got all the way to the bunker with the Securitrons when, apparently, I couldn't destroy the reactors to blow up the base. Turns out I needed to shoot them, not hit them. Probably just an oversight, but I can tell Obsidian is pushing their "Melee builds suck" agenda straight from the get-go. /s
 
Melee builds suck? What? They are awesome, specially Unarmed with all the special moves.

Also, if you wanna count destroying inanamate objects against a pacifist playthrough you can just activate the Securitrons in the vault, the Caesar quest line will continue like normal, you will just have a harder time infiltrating House's antechamber if you don't have the Robotics Expert perk.
 
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