Sniper and Leader: guide, questions, discussion.

[WVr]

Well, once again, i usually have my tank ahead, proning or not, and snipers behind. I made edit of previous post with supposed team, and as you can see, i plan to tank with Jax, while having Leader perk with Kevin, replaced with Clarisse later. So, "front" will be covered by Jax, and usually i do not get any flank attacks - proper movement and cleansing of flanks before advancing forward is the way i go.

Also, about that bug... Perhaps it's not a bug. You see, thinking of your description, - not hitting a target, but hitting nearby characters, - i got another (than bug) explanation of it. And this explanation is simple: enemy use armor-piercing ammo. I am absolutely sure that such ammo will "penetrate" target: in one of Bunker-beta missions, while cleansing one building, my squad met interesting enemy: single foe with a pistol, loaded with armor-piercing 9mm bullets. All my (wo)men were walking when that guy made a shot, and know what? THREE of my people were hit. And all 3 were nearly on the line of shot. I had no problems killing him, ofcourse. Looting the corpse, i found ONLY armor-piercing rounds. Edit: and that was single shot 100% - pistol was a Mauser, no triple shots available to this one. Forgot to mention that initially.

So, my guess is this: there are some armor-piercing rounds used by enemies, i defenitely remember some mutants with M2 + armor-piercing rounds. Deadly as hell, aye. So, perhaps, if such a mutant fire a burst from far enough to provide good spread, - and his target successfully do AC check to get no damage at all, - other *nearby* team members can be still be hit due to "penetrating" ammo effect?

Just a guess, though.

Edit: oh, and i was surprised to hear that radius of Leader prek is about 5 tiles. Then i went into game, loaded of my temporary saved games, went into field and gave Leader perk to my main character, who is level 4 at this moment. Then i went into field and checked the range of the perk myself. Well, it's not 5 tiles, as far as i can tell: it's about half-screen range. See for yourself: . On this screenshot, main character (guy in red armor) is the only one with Leader perk, while Kevin (selected recruit) stand on very edge of the Leader's area of influence - you can see that he got 10 AP, which is 1 more than he have without Leader. I hope you will trust me on that he's not under any drug - he is not, for sure. Once again, it's obviously way higher than 5 tiles... 7 or 8, perhaps? Or even more? I simply can't say. Perhaps you can.

P.S. I went with Male character afer all myself. Knowing that females are able to go into narrower places, i decided that i can go without such an ability - there are other females to have available for rare useful occasions where "smaller" character is required, - while being a man can also have some benefit, and i don't know what it could be, and if there *is* some benefit indeed - whether or not it's useful. I was unable to find any sign of such a benefit so far, looking in various sources of FoT info; but that doesn't mean that such a benefit doesn't exist. I guess.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

It happens with normal ammo, and it's an effect that can be reproduced.

I did say at least 5 tiles, but after a quick test I can say, on a straight line at least, it is 6 tiles. But you'd be better off trying it out in a bunker, there's lots of nice distinct tiles to count off.

The only benefit to being a male character is you don't have to look at those butt ugly (no pun intended) baboon female animations when they are crouch walking.

 

[WVr]

Well, benefit it is.

However, i got quite important news about Leader perk. Did you notice that Kevin in the screenshot above do have 35 (!!) AC? He's wearing very basic leather armor at that screenshot, and it gives 15 AC. His agility is 10 (under leader), means +10 AC. But then, with leader it should be 30, but, as you can see on his portrait, it's 35!

I took my time and made quick (relatively) run for random encounters in CTB mode, full squad, hunting rifles, aggresive mode. It was my desire to level Kevin up to level 6, get Leader, and check if HIS perk will be +5 or +10 or anything else bonus AC. 1000+ 7.62 rounds were shot out in less than a 40 minutes, resulting in about 5k experience for all squad members. Kevin got level 6, took leader perk, and result is the same:

Hereby i "officially" report that Leader perk in 1.27 game of mine gives not +1 Agility +5 AC, but +1 agility and +10 AC - to all party members near the character with Leader perk (6 or, perhaps, 7 tiles). As should be, Leader-character doesn't get benefits of the perk himself.

I also found another "good" feature. Quite surprisingly,

If character have Kamikaze trait, and someone nearby do have Leader perk - then person with Kamikaze trait *WILL* get 10 bonus AC from Leader perk! Quite a surprise, considering description of Kamikaze trait. Effectively, Leader trait from any recruit will practically NEGATE Kamikaze's AC penalty, with very minor exception of extra-AC available from raising Agi to 10+ (permanently - Gain Agility or Divine Favor -> Agility perks, or temporarily - via drugs). Now that is a *woot!*, no? =)

I also can clearly confirm now that Leader perks do NOT stack up in any form. So having second Leader perk in a squad will only give more freedom with positioning of characters, as well as ability to have *all* squad members affected by the effects of this perk, including persons with perk themselves.


Addendum.
I made a search for other (than Clarisse) recruit who would be 1) good shooter 2) able to get Leader and 3) not highest rank, and thus is available for low-Cha main characters to get in team. The point of having all 3 named features in 1 recruit are to not "sacrifice" 1 shooter/sniper character in "sniper's" team for getting a Leader perk. All known recruits of the game are considered, benefits and drawbacks are briefly named, best candidate found (it's Mandy, by the way). Here we go:

Let's see, if there are any recruit(s) with not-so-high rank who can be Leader AND be good with long-range gunfire. For most (or even all) of the games choices are restricted to one of recruits named below, most of them are very not suitable for a sniper/shooter role - i'll tell why, briefly:
* Kevin - rather low perception,
* Sharon - low perception, not enough luck, low skillpoints, and then she won't be a trader - every fighter in squad must be a good fighter in the first place;
* Gifted Farsight - low luck (and bad tone to Mutate her cause she got no traits initially);
* Gifted Stitch - low perception;
* Gifted Mac - she's quite ok, but only 11 AP, and being a Reaver, she's available later in game, and with need for Gifted and Bonus R.o.F. perks first - it's about very end of game to get Leader with her. And she won't get any additional perks... If that is not VERY long game. And again, as she got no traits, - it's a bad tone to Mutate her.
* Gifted Stumpy - low Agility, low luck;
* Gifted Boomer - very low Intelligence and luck;
* Gifted Max - low perception and very-very low Int;
* Kaisa - not enough luck and perception without mutation to Gifted, and no tagged gun skill, plus available rather late and with "bad" perks - so, too short with perks, won't even get all "base" perks;
* Gifted Vector - very low Int and more drawbacks; BTW, how in the hell that one got Sharpshooter perk he's available with - while he is only 3 Int, and Sharpshooter requires 6 int??? 8-O
* Peta very lately (if at all, she's Paladin-Commander) - she should have Leader on her own already developed, but she's also low Int and very-very far from "shooting" concept generally;
* Babs - quite ok for a shooting, but she's perk-rate-4, and just don't have enough perks/stats to get "usable" 12AP even with mutation to Gifted, as she will need B.R.o.F., Gain Agi and 2 Action Boys perks to do it - total of 6 perks (with Leader, that is), starting at level 8 -> complete at lvl 28, but then no-more-else in perks till 32, and it's even about very LONG game to get to 28 already, in fact. On top of all, many players prefer to use her as highest-grade thief, passively raising in bunkers - and for stealing in bunkers. And this require *many* skillpoints, and some perks, - so it's quite a choice, thief or gunner to make out of her.

There are quite many recruits with Chasima=4, and it's possible to give Gifted to such a recruit, and then Gain Charisma, and then Leader, - but that is 3 perks already. With very required Bonus R.o.F. it's 4, and then if to get 2 Action Boy plus Sharpshooter, - it's 7. As Leader won't get +1 bonus agility himself, - candidate should be Agility=9+ before Gifted, or it's Gain Agility if lower (8). I can't find any single recruit who could have these perks - while having very required for heavy sniping stats. There is in fact only one recruit with 4 Charisma and 9 agility to consider - Fran, - he won't require Gain Agility, but he will require Tag gun skill...

Then i checked all available recruits with Fast shot or Gifted trait, in hope to find someone who could do in Clarisse style after single mutation - 2 AP shots, long-range shooting.

And then i FOUND good candidate for doing heavy-long-range fire AND Leader together, other than Main characer and Clarisse. Quite surprisingly, it's a "nurse":

Mandy.

Damn, this IS a must-have permanent team member for any low-charisma main character (if not playing solo through the game, it is)! Already Gifted, and her stats are good for shooting. Shooting unaimed, i must add: mutate her from Skilled to Fast Shot ASAP, and surely get B.R.o.F too for 2AP unaimed shots (4 per round - just like your snipers, she just won't have 3-per-round "aimed" mode of fire). Then it's just two perks to get Leader: Leader itself plus Gain Charisma before it. She will be perk rate 3 afer level 9, and since she saves perk from level 8 for mutation, - next perk-points will be given at 11, 14, 17, etc, i think. So, with Gain Charisma at 12, she can get Leader at lvl 14, and B.R.o.F at 17, or B.R.o.F first at 15, and Leader at 17. After that, she IS viable shooter even with her 8 APs, - 4 shots per round, with good perception (8), too. And she will get at least two more perks, - even in "usual", "not so long" game! They are to be chosen from: Tag (for energy guns if so desired), Sharpshooter, Better criticals, More criticals, Bonus Ranged Damage. On top of that, she'll get Bonus Ranged Damage or More criticals once very early, at level 6. It's even possible, if desired, to get her to 10 APs with Gain Agility and Action Boy (with two perks after Leader) to do 5 shots per round just like Clarisse (but i'd prefer two more "quality" perks - perhaps Sharpshooter and Bonus Ranged damage rank 2, with 1st rank already taken at lvl 6).

Let's compare Clarisse and Mandy. In my opinion, Clarisse is still generally better: 3 more perception, perk-rate=2, - makes it possible to create extemely long-range energy-gun shooter with this line of perks: B.R.o.F -> Sharpshooter -> Gain Perception. So, she won't do criticals that often (luck = 4), she can't have Bonus Ranged Damage due to 2 less than required luck; yet she compensates for that with highest range of fire and 5 shots per round from the start. After that "draw", solid throwing, solid Big Guns skills and several "minor" but usefull perks - is what makes Clarisse significantly better overall Leader-shooter, i think. But if Clarisse won't be available, then Mandy will provide in her own way better than anyone else, IMO, and this is good news for low-charisma main characters, i think - to remind, they just can't get Leader themselves as well, so good shooter with that perk is very valuable person to any "shooting" squad.

And just to mention: both discussed girls are Sneaky and have Int=9. Good girls!

Addendum - P.S.: I don't plan to play low-Charisma main character anymore, but in case if anyone else does (or if i will re-consider in distant future) - well, may be text above will be of use. =)


Edit: another matter. One question arised. Rather technical, for now i can't find a solution... Well:
? How bonuses to ranged damage are calculated, when character have *both* Kamikaze trait and Bonus Ranged Damage perk(s)?
I went with some testing of this combination, to see how much more damage these abilities will provide (ofcourse, i saved the game into separate slot before taking both perks, no worries here). My main character got the trait, and B.R.D. perks for test (both ranks). He's level 6, saved one perk from level 3 to gain both ranks at lvl 6, and he used hunting rifle for this test; other squad members also used hunter rifles - to provide a base for real-ingame comparison. I went into several (about 20 in fact) random encounters, and checked the log of the fight for each damage number (i made it in TB mode), while firing with both main character and other recruits at the same target; ofcourse, targets were different from encouner to encounter, thus giving me more data. Surely, i didn't compare damages dealt to different types of targets - comparison went within "same type of mobs" basis, it's just that i made "several comparisons". Generally, I found that:

3.1. Bonus damage of B.R.D. is not reflected in character screen in any way - while Kamikaze's bonus is ("bonus damage" value of derived statistics).
3.2. Character with these abilities indeed deal 1.5 more damage on average: sometimes as low as about 1.3 times more average damage, and up to about 1.6 times more average damage - this depends on monster's type (or, perhaps, i didn't go for big enough testing series? Dunno...)
3.3. As far as i can tell, critical hits are also affected by these abilities.

What is unclear to me - more questions:
* Since Kamikaze gives different "type" of bonus - namely, increasing of *any* damage, - than B.R.D., it's unclear how they are calculated, in fact... Is it kinda "100%+25%+2x15%", or "(100%+25%)x(100%+2x15%)? Sadly, I can't find a way to test this precisely enough... So, which way it is?
* In fact, i can't even tell for sure if these abilities are not mutually exclusive - i simply don't know precisely mechanics and values of Armor's damage reduction of monsters in game, and i expected to see slightly more effective gunfire with these abilities taken. In fact, it well could be that only "higher bonus" will be in action - and if so, then Trait is a waste if both ranks of B.R.D. are taken, or if "on other hand" - one can tell that it's a waste to spend two perks into B.R.D., if character is already have Kamikaze trait. So, are these abilities cumulative or not?

I can't make good test myself now, - i'm not wise owner of solid test-map and required good-knowledge of in-game files yet, etc etc. Requiem, can you test this? Note that i have nothing to give for your work on this case, except my expressed gratefulness. So, if you're not interested or just don't have time for this, - please, don't hesistate to say so. Ok?

If you're interested in doing such a test for me (as wrote above), please read ahead. Otherwise, please, don't waste your time: below is description of test i'd do, if i could do it right now.

I'd make stationary target (or few of them if to make longer test) with 1330 life and absolutely no armor, and target would be an "enemy" for a test character. I'd make a character with about 150% small guns skill, 10 perception, and 0 luck (if that's possible, - dunno, - to prevent criticals). I'd give him hunting rifle, and about 1000 of ammo. Then i'd move him in range while being in Agressive-95% CTB mode. So, he should do exactly 1330 damage on average per 100 shots (counting 5% loss from standard 5% missing chance), since average weapon damage of hunting rifle is 14. 7.62 ammo does not have any modifiers for damage and penetration, that will simplify things. Then i'd let him kill the target, and simply would look into his inventory to check how many ammo he spent. After writing down his results without Kamikaze and perks, i'd add Kamikaze to him, and would repeat the process of target elimination. Then again, write down ammo spent. And at last, i'd add both ranks of B.R.D. perk, and would do elimination of described target once again. Perhaps ammo spends would show certain mathematical pattern: series of 100 are known to be quite precise with getting "average" values. If with both features (Kamikaze and 2xB.R.D.) character would do very close to either of: {1.25; 1.3; 1.55; 1.625} multipliers in compare to no-trait, no-perks test - then i'd be pretty sure which way is used to calculate these when together...

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Hereby i "officially" report that Leader perk in 1.27 game of mine gives not +1 Agility +5 AC, but +1 agility and +10 AC - to all party members near the character with Leader perk (6 or, perhaps, 7 tiles). As should be, Leader-character doesn't get benefits of the perk himself.

Leader is 6 tiles on a straight line and around 5 tiles diagonally.

This is the radius of the leader perk (it's also the radius of glowing one). The rust tiles are dubious, it depends how close to the edge of the tile you are and the position of the leader.

I also found another "good" feature. Quite surprisingly,

If character have Kamikaze trait, and someone nearby do have Leader perk - then person with Kamikaze trait *WILL* get 10 bonus AC from Leader perk! Quite a surprise, considering description of Kamikaze trait. Effectively, Leader trait from any recruit will practically NEGATE Kamikaze's AC penalty, with very minor exception of extra-AC available from raising Agi to 10+ (permanently - Gain Agility or Divine Favor -> Agility perks, or temporarily - via drugs). Now that is a *woot!*, no? =)

I hadn't noticed the extra 5% but why is it surprising that kamikaze will still get the bonus? It's not tied to their agility after all.

If you're interested in doing such a test for me (as wrote above), please read ahead. Otherwise, please, don't waste your time: below is description of test i'd do, if i could do it right now.

I'll have to get back to you on that.

 

[WVr]

Ok, 5-6 it will be. Visible quite a wide range... And if that bug (which you described) affect about the same area... Then it's indeed hideos and devastating.

Well, the reason to be surprised is simple: description of Kamikaze perk in-game says something like "your character will get AC only from the armor currently equipped". So, it would be just logical to see no +10 AC with a Kamikaze character, influenced by someone else's Leader perk. But it's there.

"have to get back to you on that" - sorry my english, but i can't get precise meaning of this. Which of of following would be true?
* You mean that you will reply about this test later in longer form, or
* You also can't perform such a test, or
* Something else?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

All of the above.

Nah I had to go out, so I didn't have time to set it up before.

You can't go lower than 1 for a stat.

But results, control subject had 5 critical shots but only one was higher than the rifle max damage (34) and with 10 misses had 893 bullets remaining. Lowest damage was 8, highest 19.

Kamikaze had only one critical (32) and with 11 misses had 905 rounds remaining. Lowest damage was 9, highest 23.

BRD had 3 criticals only 2 were over max damage (25 & 50). With 7 misses had 917 rounds remaining. Lowest damage was 10, highest 25.

Kamikaze & BRD had 3 criticals none over max damage, and with 8 misses had 926 bullets remaining. Lowest damage was 12, highest 31.

M = Miss, C = Critical

Control

16,11,8,12,16,16,13,17,12,9,8,8,11,17,M,19,14,12,18,12,16,M,C34,17,10,C12,16,11,M,15,12,10,M,8,C18,17,C12,M,13,11,15,10,12
13,11,8,12,15,13,16,19,13,12,15,19,16,C13,18,12,10,14,14,M,12,10,19,13,11,M,10,19,17,M,8,M,15,19,17,16,18,15,13,10,11,9,M
13,10,19,14,18,13,15,19,14,11,15,C14,16,19,10,8,18,18,13,19.


Kamikaze

11,22,16,22,18,16,M,13,M,9,11,22,21,17,16,19,18,M,17,13,22,11,9,23,12,11,M,M,12,23,17,M,14,C32,16,9,17,22,16,12,11,21,11,M
12,9,21,13,11,18,16,16,13,11,17,14,12,16,9,17,14,11,M,16,21,18,22,12,9,17,14,14,19,12,16,13,M,14,14,M,21,9,18,M,22,19,16,21
23,22,23,9,18,11,16.


Bonus Ranged Damage

10,23,11,10,23,11,25,17,22,22,10,11,16,14,M,15,15,11,24,M,19,15,20,20,16,21,10,16,16,21,18,M,15,15,25,26,14,M,11,15,24,14,21
19,15,20,20,17,10,20,12,20,25,14,10,15,13,25,10,C18,23,20,M,18,C25,19,19,M,20,20,11,23,24,24,20,C50,14,19,15,13,17,M,14.


Kamikaze & Bonus Ranged Damage

22,13,28,17,13,13,19,M,12,21,M,24,14,31,21,17,27,19,19,26,18,12,29,24,26,12,18,13,13,19,M,17,23,29,M,24,26,21,M,24,16,31,31
17,12,23,29,M,12,18,23,18,16,M,17,23,C19,M,16,26,27,23,29,16,C13,22,17,24,24,31,C16,17,16,23.

If you're interested the same character with finesse took 145 shots to kill the target, it scored 28 criticals, 3 of which were over the max damage (22,25 & 27) and there were 12 misses. Lowest damage done was 6, highest 14.

 

[WVr]

Excellent. This data is more than enough to answer my questions fully. Many thanks!

Addendum: some evaluating of Requiem's numbers.

For all the below, 2xBRD means that character have Bonus Ranged Damage - both ranks; KZ means Kamikaze trait. To remind to any possible reader: Hunting rifle is the weapon tested - so these numbers are ONLY about this weapon. They are NOT about traits/perks themselves.

1. Rude and simple first look: KZ gives 1-4 bonus damage per shot, 2xBRD gives 2-6 bonus damage, both KZ and 2xBRD gives 4-12 bonus damage. This is GOOD thing to see: means that we got best possible scenario, which is consequental multiplication. Bonuses are not just add together, and then total "bonus" damage percentage aplied to base: if that would be the case, then last test would demostrate minimum damage of 11, maximum of 29 ( i.e., (1...4)+(2...6)=(3...10) bonus damage per shot). But we got 4-12. Most likely it means that base damage is given a bonus from one of these abilities, and then result (already being more than base) is increased by another bonus percentage. Or to put it in other way, one can say that B.R.D perks do have a base of 125% to be applied to!
2. If above is correct, KZ plus 2xBRD (together) should increase base damage by 62.5%. Obviously, some rounding takes place, and it seems it takes place in several places of the process, and it seems that it's about rounding down in most or all cases. But still: 8-19 have average at 13.5; 12-31 have average at 21.5. If 13.5 is 100%, then 21.5 would be 21.5*100%/13.5 = 159,3%. So, it closer to +62.5% bonus damage than to 55% bonus damage.
3. Ammo-spent based average-damage-per-shot evaluation (high-damage crits and misses - substructed):
* without bonuses: 1296/96=13.50 (oh my, perfect! );
* +KZ: 1298/83=15.63855 (supposed to be 16.875);
* +2xBRD: 1255/74=16.95946 (supposed to be 17.55);
* +kz +2xBRD: 1330/66=20.151515 (supposed to be 21.9375).
"Supposed" values are calculated via applying corresponding bonus percentages (25% and 30%) to average damage (13.5).
* Now, i see interesting pattern: "ammo-spend-based" value of +KZ mode is nearly 1.2 lower than supposed, +2xBRD "ammo-spend-based" value is 0.6 lower than supposed, and now: "ammo-spend-based" value of +KZ+2xBRD mode is ~1.8 lower than supposed, BUT look: 1.2+0.6=1.8. Now that is interesting! It really seems like there are some some "substructions", and they indeed adds together. Perhaps that bonus damage - both from BRD and KZ, - is not applied sometimes, in certain circumstances??? This assumption seems quite solid, because maximum damage of rifle with both bonuses (31), as well as average damage calculated above from minimum-maximum weapon damage (giving a "bonus" increase of ~59%), is just very close to "supposed" values: 31*100%/19=163%. Very close to supposed 162.5%...

* Average-damage-per-shot gains (ammo-spent based):
* (1) +KZ: ~2.14;
* (2) +2xBRD: ~3.46;
* (3) +KZ+2xBRD: ~6.65;
* (4) Gain, aqquired with +2xBRD perks for a "initially" KZ character: ~4.51;
* (5) Gain, aqquired with +KZ trait, for a "initially" 2xBRD character: ~3.19.
Easy to see that gain from either bonus is noticeably higher, if character "already" have another bonus (compare (2) and (4), then (1) and (5) ).

* Conclusion1: it is very worth to get BOTH KZ and 2xBRD for any character: these bonuses do work together, and even more: they're multiplicative! It seems there is little penalty of a sort somewhere, but nonetheless there is, as well, very clear fact: 2xBRD perk is MORE rewarding for KZ character than for usual character, and vice-versa: KZ trait is more rewarding for 2xBRD character, than for any character without these perks.
* Conclusion2: KZ plus 2xBRD provides about +49% damage-per-shot increase, with maximum damage of a weapon increased by 62.5%, against no-armor target. In game, fighting good-armored targets, both percentiges will be higher (due to fact that there is, in most cases, should be armor's direct-substruction of damage; for example, PA (Power Armor) have 13 direct subsruction, so any shot of 13 or below damage deal ZERO damage to a target in PA); in fact, some targets which are almost "immune" to certain weapons - can be killed if these bonuses are present.

P.S. Good example is those Preoria's turrets. When i will go to Preoria with my main character, i'll try to get some time for testing Hunting rifle (barely able to do 1 damage to turrets sometimes - with any character without KZ amd 2xBRD), and AK-47 (barely able to do 1 or 2 damage sometimes - again, without these bonuses from a character). Until then, then.

Edit: Well, i never liked Finesse. Now we clearly see, why. +10% crit chance really not worth -25% damage. Even against no-armor target Finesse perform worse than plain no-bonus character; any armor with direct substruction will make Finesse to perform even worse. Alas, with certain character's builds, having 50+ crit chance with drugs (BTW, is there any "cap" for crit ercentage, i wonder?), - may still "feel" that they are good. But in fact, i think, they would do more damage on average without Finesse. Like it or not.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I ran some further tests to see how more criticals stacked up.

I re-ran the control and finesse tests and this time Control took 106 shots, with 11 misses and 8 criticals. Again only one critical above max damage (28). And the damage range remained the same 8-19.

Finesse killed the target in 83 shots with 8 misses and 11 criticals. Only one above the max damage (25). Again lowest damage was 6, highest 14.

3 ranks of More criticals killed the target in 102 shots with 8 misses and 8 criticals. Three of which were above the max damage (24,28,36). Lowest damage was 8 and highest was 19.

Finesse with 3 ranks of more criticals took 106 shots, with 10 misses and 15 criticals. Only one was above max damage (27), again lowest 6 and highest 14.

Better Criticals took 110 shots, with 11 misses and 5 criticals. None above the max damage. There was slightly more occurances of secondary damage than the first round of tests, but not more than the second control or finesse tests.

Oh BTW the brotherhood armour is the only type to have high damage thresholds and by the time you will go up against opponents wearing any you'll have better weapons than the hunting rifle. For most opponents the highest amount that will be automatically deducted from your damage is 4. The exceptions are the turrets (15) pacification bot (14) tank bot and Behemoth (19).

Here are the results after running the tests through again for each character.

shots, misses, criticals.

Control
107, 10, 5.
106, 11, 8.

Finesse
145, 12, 28.
83, 8, 11.

More Criticals
102, 8, 8.
102, 5, 5.

Finesse & More Criticals
106, 10, 15.
143, 9, 22.

Better Criticals
110, 11, 5.
19, 0, 3.

Kamikaze & More Criticals
84, 5, 4.
95, 10, 4.

Finesse & Bonus Ranged Damage
110, 9, 17.
46, 2, 6.

The damage range for Finesse & BRD was 7-18. The results for Finesse, Finesse & BRD, and Better Criticals that finished quickly all ended on a critical hit.

Just to see if it made any difference with a higher luck.


Luck 6

Control
102, 7, 7.

Finesse
48, 6, 9.

More Criticals
70, 12, 6.

Luck 10

Control
103, 6, 17.

Finesse
28, 3, 7.

More Criticals
85, 9, 10.

 

[WVr]

Oh BTW the brotherhood armour is the only type to have high damage thresholds and by the time you will go up against opponents wearing any you'll have better weapons than the hunting rifle.

For sure, - except those pesky turrets.

For most opponents the highest amount that will be automatically deducted from your damage is 4.

I see. Then, it should be that some foes (other than named below) have high % of damage reduction.

The exceptions are the turrets (15) pacification bot (14) tank bot and Behemoth (19).

Usefull to know. Thanks.

Here are the results after running the tests through again for each character.

Err, it's not completely clear to me whether the *target* was the same... Are we speaking about no-armor, 1330 HP target?

The damage range for Finesse & BRD was 7-18.

Very interesting. 7-18, while control is 8-19? Was it TWO ranks of BRD or only 1 rank? If two, then, i suppose, interesting thing happens: base damage (100%) is reduced by a trait firstr (Finesse). New "base2" of damage calculated (75% of normal). Then 2xBRD increase this "base2" by 30%. 30% of 75% is 22.5%. Result, if speaking in original very base percentages, will be 97.5%. If there is indeed rounding down, then this WILL result in decreasing of weapon's damage (minimum and maximum damage, i mean) by 1. Now, is it so, how do you think?

Just to see if it made any difference with a higher luck.

Luck 6

...

Finesse
28, 3, 7.

28 shots??? Again, are we speaking about that no-armor 1330 health target? I hope - we aren't... Would be most strange. =)

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Same target as the damage tests and it was 2 ranks of BRD.

The manual does speak of getting a critical 'instant kill'. Those tests that did end early all finished with a critical to the head/eyes. Damage ranged from 9-22 in those cases.

Certainly it looks like more criticals isn't worth taking, and if you can do an instant death critical then finesse with better criticals looks a good combo.

Just tried it with doing called shots to the head.

Finesse took 6 shots, first and only critical for 15 points of damage the target had his skull fractured and was killed. With over 1280 hitpoints left.

More criticals took 12 shots, and 5 criticals (to the head) before the target was killed with a fractured skull.

First attempt with Finesse and Better Criticals, 75% chance to hit the head BTW, Luck 6 was instant death in one shot.

Further testing on more criticals, this time doing targeted shots.

Same as before, same distance/target as with all the tests posted. 75% to hit head, 150 small guns, 10 perception luck 1.

Control 14 shots, 1 miss and 5 criticals. 5th Critical with fractured skull = instant death.

3 Ranks of More Criticals, 46 shots, 5 misses and 5 criticals, 5th and final critical a fractured skull.

I'm not sure about More Criticals, other than I'm not seeing a return worth 3 perks.

 

[WVr]

Oh, instant death. Cool. =) Never noticed before that there is instant death in the game. My bad. On the other hand, i really doubt that it's worth to base main character's abilities around instant death feature... As long as it's not a single-character walk through the game. Higher damage seems to be much more reliable thing...

What do you think?

Great thanks, once again, for all the data, effort and answers. Well, i'll go get some gameplay (Bunker Beta awaits), and i hope to get some rounds of turret-testing. Got Ice with her Finesse, some other characters with two saved perks, etc.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

With luck 6 I was consistantly killing the target in an average of 6 aimed shots. That seems fairly reliable to me. Even with an opponent with a high damage resistance doing 0 damage with finesse and a hunting rifle you've still got a high chance of blinding, smashing them to the ground or knocking them out. All of which makes the target less of a threat to you and easy pickings for you team mates.

This is another reason you might want to go 10 agility from the start, doing 3 aimed shots per turn with a high rate of criticals.

 

[WVr]

As soon as realized my mistake with wrong AP price of Sniper Rifle shot - i went to 9 or 10 agility concept. Yep. 9 will do as well, while someone with Leader is around, that's why.

But indeed 10 have its own use, if we speak specifically about a character with 8 charisma. You see, after quite a time of thinking, i re-created my character. For the one last time. Promise. He now have s.p.e.c.i.a.l. of 5.9.2.8.7.10.6. I had to decrease perception by 1 to ensure that agility is highest stat. This way, i gotta have 11 after D.F., and then i gotta have 12 under someone's else Leader perk. That is 11 AP. And then i save 1 Action boy perk! Saved perk can go, if *so* required, into Gain Perception... But i think i'll find even better use of extra-perk with 12 AP character. Basically, i traded some extra range for some (1-perk worth) extra damage. I need as many as 10 perks total to get all I want for damage-increasing of main character (including D.F.'s +1 agility), and with D.F. it will be complete at level 25. Quite "in time", i think. If i'll get to 27 or higher - fine, Gain Perception then, or anything else i'd feel required. If not - no problemo.


As for instant kill with 6 shots... Err... I'll get some data to share - later. We'll see if that will happen with turrets... Which i doubt for now. Can't help myself, i really doubt that. =) Reason: i remember doing LOTS of aimed shots with various characters before. In previous games. For turrets, i always variated between lenses, processor and regulator. I made aimed "shots" with AK-47s and even with energy knives. I usually have one character in team with ability to see enemy's health (via perk), and i never noticed any instant-kill. Including all the fire (or kniving, in one game i went good with melee weapons) from higher-than-6 main character in point-blank range.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

It's possible to get but not in 6 shots, not when you take into account armour class. Well other than raiders or unless you're really really lucky.

But either way is valid, concentrate on doing damage or concentrate on getting a high amount of criticals.

 

[WVr]

I plan to get both. Damage and range first, ofc. Here's my perk plan, notice that i save some perks for 3 or even more levels:

lvl 3: saved for future use.
lvl 6: B.R.D. rank 1.
lvl 9: Sharpshooter.
lvl 12: Action boy rank 1.
lvl 14: Divine Favor (saved perk from lvl 3 used).
lvl 15: F.R.o.F.
lvl 17: B.R.D. rank 2.
lvl 19: Better Criticals (and some Voodoo for tough mission fights - to make it better combo at this point; gun skills will be high enough for good sniping at this point, too).
lvl 21, 23, 25: More Criticals, all 3 ranks.

I will get 21% critical chance at lvl 25 without drugs, as well as bonuses to damage and 12 AP - 3 aimed shots a round, as long as character is under someone's leader. If he's not - then 1 shot of 3 will be unaimed, not of that big deal anyways, as i plan to have my Leader near the main for all combats. If i will ever need a sniper "somehwere else", i'll use other sniper(s).

As for NPCs, BTW: i plan to save first two perks. At lvl 9, they will get mutation to Gifted and Sharpshooter (for ones with a need for Tag at 12, and also for ones with predefined, and thus "spent" first perk - lvl3 one, - no Sharpshooter at this point). Still one perk in "reserve". At 12, they will get both ranks of Action boy. 12 AP will allow them to shoot 3 unaimed per round. At 15, they will get F.R.o.F., ofcourse. Sharpshooter for anyone without it at 18, and then it's B.R.D. time. I'm a fan of damage, you see... =) So, i plan to have 3 recruits with 3 aimed shots per round, Sharpshooter, and both B.R.D. ranks at lvl 24; one of them will have 1 rank of More Criticals on top of that. With character #5 being a "tank", and character #6 being a "miscelanious", ultimately, - the robot (he saves some exp for others, not taking any itself, can shoot somewhat, and also have his own "tanking" abilities if provided with Brahmin armor, - i've read some report about that somewhere). That's the plan.


Edit: Ok, i'm doing some tests with turrets right now; results will be later, today. For now, i have one thing i can't wait to ask about: i made a crit of 1504 damage with hunting rifle. Kinda "woooot!", you know. Here's screenshot made right after the crit:

For your information: Shot was made aiming at processor, - alas, before this moment i already made about a hundred CRITS to the processor, with various setups (and reloading the test, ofc), - top damage was 27, except this one. At the moment of that uge crit, target (turret) was very low with health already, - below 50. I regularly checked health of the turret via Rage's ability. Another thing: in previous tests, nothing similar happened; and also, in previous tests, character has below 10 luck - but this time, he got 12 (6 base plus voodoo - twice). Questions:
* Could it be that luck=12 is the reason of such a massive crit?
* What is it? Is it that instant-kill you told about?


Edit:
Chapter A. Results of my tests.

A.1. Environment.

* Range: Except very last one test, range was 20 tiles. For last test range was below 10 tiles.
* Picture:

* Characters: guy in red armor - my main character, level 6, performed shooting. There is also Kevin few tiles behind main charater (not visible on picture), providing Leader perk for main character.
* Target: "lower-left" turret, - target that had been used for ALL tests. It have 349 hitpoints and high armor.
* Stats of main character: 5.2.9.8.7.10.6 without drugs.
* Weapon: hunting rifle (all tests).
* Small guns skill, without any bonuses: 70 for first part of tests, 85 for second part of tests (used a book, found before the tests in Preoria).
* Bonuses to gun skill during all tests: proning - +15%, +2 agility (Leader and any +agility drug - Buffout, Voodoo or Psycho) - +8%. So, fir first part (tests B1.X) - gun skill was 93%. For second part (tests B2.X) and last test, - gun skill was 108%.
* Traits: Kamikaze (and Gifted).
* Perks: variable during tests, will be listed for each test.
* Drugs: variable during tests, will be listed for each test. As mentioned above, 1 drug for extra +1 agility (and thus +4% gun skill) - always; if that drug is Voodoo, - then it's also +23% critical chance per each; Mentats were used to get higher perception (11 of it) for higher C-t-H.
* Turret fire: in all tests turret returned fire all the time. It wasn't able to hit character at all, tho, or, at best, - 1 hit during a particular test.
* Game mode: CTB, normal difficulty, for all tests.

A.2. Terms and shortenings.

For very first test, i'll list all shots performing (misses, zero damage and damaging shots in very natural sequence, as they happened in the game). For all other tests, i recorded all critical shots only - main part of the damage to the turret in following tests was made with crits.

I'll use following abbreviations: C-t-H - Chance to Hit, actual "shown" percentage during each test; N-A - non-aimed shot; A-Proc - aimed shot, target - processor of the turret; crit: 62% - "critical chance = 62%" (number will vary); 2xB.R.D. - character took both ranks of Bonus Ranged Damage perk (1xB.R.D., obviously, means only 1 rank taken); 2xM.C. - character took two ranks of More Criticals perk; t.d. - "top damage", and this WITHOUT counting criticals (i.e., maximum damage of non-critical shot); at last, RESULT - means number of shots it took to destroy the turret (including misses and criticals).


Chapter B. Results of the tests.

B1. First part of the tests.

B1.1.
- Perks: 2xB.R.D. Drugs: 1xBuffout, 1xMentats. N-A, C-t-H: 95%, crit: 6%.
t.d.: 6. RESULT: 156.

Additional info:
* Only 8 criticals shots, a bit fewer than theiretical average would be (10). Total damage inflicted by crits: 99 (which is nearly only 28.5% of all damage inflicted).
* Raw data (all shots recorded, each row except last one - 20 shots, m = miss, c+number = critical hit, number = damage). So, shots:
1 4 4 m 0 m 2 0 1 0 0 3 m 4 4 0 0 6 0 c11
3 1 3 0 m 3 3 2 4 0 c21 0 c21 6 0 m m 0 0 0
0 0 m c4 0 2 0 2 4 0 0 0 6 m 2 4 2 0 m 2
m 6 4 0 0 3 m 4 0 m 1 0 0 4 2 0 0 4 0 1
c28 1 6 c2 m 0 0 4 4 0 4 3 0 2 1 3 3 4 0 0
0 1 3 4 3 3 0 4 6 6 3 0 0 0 6 1 0 0 0 0
4 0 0 0 1 4 0 3 3 6 0 c0 c12 6 0 0 4 1 2 1
4 3 4 0 4 4 0 0 2 0 0 3 3 0 0 6
Verifying raw data. Let's sum all damage. Sum of rows: 40+67+28+29+65+40+47+33=349. With last shot being 6 damage and 349 of turret's health, - it seems that there are no mistakes made. At least no rude or many ones.
I will not list all shots in following tests (and didn't record it, too). This one is enough to see that any non-zero maximum-or-below damage of non-critical shot occurs with nearly the same frequency (we have nearly the same number of damage = 1...6 shots here).

B1.Ice.
Comment: this one (and only this one) was performed not by main character, but by Ice. She was proning in very same spot. She got Finesse, 7 base perception, and 5 luck. She had 138% in small guns during the test (including +10% from Loner perk).
- Perks: Loner. Drugs: 2xMentat, 1xVoodoo. A-proc., C-t-H: 95%, crit: 38%.
t.d.: 1. RESULT: 219.
Additional info. Criticals (74 total):
11 3 12 6 14 8 7 2 3 6 6 8 0 7 0 1 6 0 3 0
0 4 10 9 5 3 6 0 0 13 3 6 1 0 0 12 0 0 0 0
0 2 6 5 3 11 4 1 6 0 6 0 9 5 0 1 0 5 0 12
0 12 1 4 8 6 6 5 0 5 7 4 12 11

B1.2.
Comment: back to main character. Notice decreasing of C-t-H (no more mentats, means no more +2 perception): i spent all skillpoints before, and my small guns skill is still kinda low for this kind of test: for a start of the game, i use only guns'n'bullets magazines to raise it, to "save" some skillpoints. More importantly, i got no Sharpshooter perk yet (obviously, level 6 character can't get it).
- Perks: 2xM.C. Drugs: 1xBuffout, 1xMentat. A-proc., C-t-H: 81%, crit: 16%.
t.d.: 2. RESULT: 247.
Additional info. Crits (36 total):
3 9 21 17 17 19 12 17 2 4 0 1 9 9 0 2 1 1 12 3
0 9 12 0 2 0 11 19 7 4 0 16 14 19 19 12

B1.3.
Comment: this time only one perk (not two); and Voodoo instead of Buffout.
- Perks: 1xB.R.D. Drugs: 1xVoodoo, 1xMentat. A-proc., C-t-H: 81%, crit: 29%.
t.d.: 3. RESULT: 132.
Additional info. Crits (27 total):
0 3 11 14 6 14 14 4 16 6 2 14 4 0 3 8 27 13 9 22
2 19 17 22 16 2 24

B1.4.
Comment: i was so amazed by the last crit, that i even forgot to write down the result before re-loading "starting test" save. Alas, i am sure it was lower than 100 shots. And to mention, all further tests were made with hope to get another crit like that, - but no success. This one 1504 damage crit remains only and one-of-a-kind i was able to witness and write down myself today.
- Perks: 2xB.R.D. Drugs: 2xVoodoo. A-proc., C-t-H: 49%, crit: 52%.
t.d.: 6. RESULT: les-than-100-shots (forgot to write down).
Additional info. Crits (26 total):
6 4 18 8 0 6 1 13 8 13 13 6 14 7 8 19 3 19 0 16
18 3 0 23 21 1504

B1.5.
Comment: as previous, 12 luck under drugs. But this time i went with N-A shots.
- Perks: 2xB.R.D. Drugs: 2xVoodoo. N-A, C-t-H: 69%, crit: 52%.
t.d.: 6. RESULT: 98.
Additional info. Crits (23 total):
18 17 22 2 21 18 18 6 0 17 28 12 13 11 2 23 0 29 6 0
12 16 23

Chapter B, - part 2.

Gun skill increased by 15 via 1 journal, and became 108% under test conditions.

All tests of B2 part were made with main character, proning on pre-saved position (and thus distance was *exactly* the same, - in B1 part tests it could differ by a pixel or two).


B2.1.
Comment: maximum non-crit damage of 2, since it's Kamikaze character. Non-crit damage=2 shots were as frequent as expected.
- Perks: 2xM.C. Drugs: 2xVoodoo. N-A, C-t-H: 84%, crit: 62%.
t.d.: 2. RESULT: 107.
Additional info. Crits (36 total):
0 13 2 8 18 9 1 16 12 0 18 22 11 1 12 1 12 11 1 3
8 0 11 13 12 0 22 0 0 12 19 21 13 0 22 13

B2.2.
Comment: 2xB.R.D instead of 2xM.C., everything else the same as previous. Also, repeating values of crits in the end are rather strange, but i checked the log of the fight twice - there is no mistake there. Coincedence or some glitch of the game? Dunno.
- Perks: 2xB.R.D. Drugs: 2xVoodoo. N-A, C-t-H: 84%, crit: 52%.
t.d.: 6. RESULT: 91.
Additional info. Crits (23 total):
0 0 12 3 18 3 6 1 18 27 13 19 21 0 3 28 28 14 14 17
17 3 13

B2.3.
Comment: in hope to get "insane" crit once again, and to compare things between N-A and A-proc, i went to try aimed shots with various settings (B2.3...B2.6 tests).
- Perks: 2xB.R.D. Drugs: 2xVoodoo. A-proc., C-t-H: 64%, crit: 52%.
t.d.: 6. RESULT: 67.
Additional info. Crits (23 total):
17 4 29 12 16 21 4 14 29 7 21 18 17 18 0 13 24 0 18 26
0 0 18

B2.4.
- Perks: 2xM.C. Drugs: 2xVoodoo. A-proc., C-t-H: 64%, crit: 62%.
t.d.: 2. RESULT: 126.
Additional info. Crits (39 total):
11 0 3 0 12 11 13 0 12 22 0 4 11 18 1 11 2 16 0 12
13 0 11 1 11 2 11 18 0 0 0 11 1 13 19 23 13 17 12

B2.5.
- Perks: 2xM.C. Drugs: 1xVoodoo. A-proc., C-t-H: 64%, crit: 39%.
t.d.: 2. RESULT: 138.
Additional info. Crits (33 total):
17 1 6 0 21 0 11 0 12 23 13 1 14 2 12 0 11 18 23 17
0 2 16 14 7 12 0 21 11 16 17 13 14

B2.6.
Comment: this one concludes second part of tests. In this test, lower crit percentage resulted in more total damage from non-crit shots, - even while top-damage of these shots was 2. Ammo spend is increased dramatically.
Perks: 2xM.C. Drugs: 1xPsycho. A-proc., C-t-H: 64%, crit: 16%.
t.d.: 2. RESULT: 235.
Additional info. Crits (28 total):
0 19 1 21 23 18 12 11 0 6 9 2 7 0 16 12 23 13 8 0
23 9 17 9 18 18 0 18


Chapter B, - part 3.

Just for curiousity, i moved character closer to the turret. Together with Kevin, i put them no far from a turret, in such a manner that second turret had no line of sight to the characters. Picture:

I gave to the character most effective perks and drugs. Goal was to see how fast he will kill the turret with 95% C-t-H. Data:

B3.1.
Perks: 2xB.R.D. Drugs: 2xVoodoo. A-proc., C-t-H: 95%, crit: 52%.
t.d.: 6. RESULT: 56.
Additional info. Crits (26 total):
19 0 18 0 0 13 0 18 7 4 19 19 16 2 18 24 6 27 17 0
13 23 19 2 19 9

MOST interesting of this test is not about damage - but about the fact that main character was INTACT during whole test! Not a sctratch. Turret missed every single shot! I didn't count how many shots turret made, but i'm very sure it's about 57...63 shots, most likely - 59 or 60. It's really not a problem to nuke them in CTB mode this way - from moderate distance.

This concludes my test-data of hunting rifle against Preoria's turrets for now.


C. Addendum.

C1. Evaluating the data.
- Numerical analysis of test data, may be, will help - but for now i have no time to do it. May be i will do it in future, may be not. If i will do, then it will be chapter D.

C2. Interesting observations.
- C2.1. 2xB.R.D. increase non-crit damage of Kamikaze character with hunting rifle against preoria's turret by HUNDREDS percents. Maximum damage raises from 2 to 6 (+200%). Average per-shot non-crit damage should raise, in theory, from ~0.25 to 1.75, i.e. - it's +600% of non-crit damage; it's possible to get "real" data on that, making some analysis of my test data above, and may be i'll do it, if i will have some spare time for this in the future. I know it's not that important anyways (stronger weapons will be used against same-or-higher-armored targets later in the game, thus greatly reducing "relative-power" of 2xB.R.D perks). But hey, +600% non-crit actual damage - it's quite a number itself for just two perks, eh? And last but not least, this feature allows to kill those Preoria turrets with hunting rifle from afar AND without any drug - with a reasonably not-so-high amount of ammo spent.
C2.2.
- With 2 endurance, my main character was able to eat 2 drugs at once, and even more - in most cases he didn't get "addicted". Although, i never used any drug with him before. Third drug took my character out into unconciousness ALWAYS, except the case of buffout: this one increase endurance by 3. Just for curiousity, i re-loaded the test-save to see what will happen with endurance=2 character, if he will eat only buffouts. Result: 3 buffouts, then 1 voodoo - no addiction, no problems at all. Next voodoo knocked him out uncounsiousness. So, in case of buffout, endurance=2 character can eat up to FOUR drugs at once. In case of radiation dangers, 3 buffout and one Rad-X will make him extremely resistful to radiation levels: 72%!
C2.3.
- Even more interesting, with 3 buffouts eaten, character get all the extra-hitpoints he could earn with such an endurance played from the start! In my case: base - str=5, end=2, lvl=6 character have 44 maximum health. After 3 buffouts, he got str=11, end=11, maximum health = 68. Conclusion: temporary increase of endurance brings in bonus life from increased endurance. Nice! I don't think it's a bug; or, at least, if it is, - it's not "unappropriate" one: if the character indeed have endurance boosted from 2 to 11 for some time - then why he shouldn't receive solid amount of extra-health? He IS "endurable" for the moment, and so it would be strange to see high-endurance but low-health character in the field.
C2.4.
- Poison resistance of my character, while under effects of 3xBuffout, jumped to impressive 55%.
C2.5.
- Drugs can't increase any stat above racial maximum. As such, even endurance=2 character can get end=11 - almost maximum for a human. From a curiousity, i tried to eat even more - 4xBuffout, 2xRad-X. I was unlucky this time and got addiction to Buffout from the first use. But other than that - it worked fine! 12 str, 12 endurance, 124% radiation resistance, 60% poison resistance, and 71 maximum life. On top of all that, i was able to eat 1 voodoo and still remain non-overdosed. It's a total of 7 drugs eaten at once! Now, who said that endurance=2 character can't use drugs much, eh?

07.01.2007: edit complete.


Edit (08.01.2007).

Chapter B4. AK-47.

95% Chance to hit, 108% small guns skill. Same turret is the target. Character is placed just like in B3.1 test.

B4.1.
Single fire mode. N-A shots, C-t-H: 95%, 2xB.R.D. and (wow! =) ) - 92% crit chance under 4xVoodoo: i forgot that i ate 2 already before the save i used to load the game, so i ate 2 more... It seems that with few minutes of waiting character can get "more and more" of drugs. Now that is something! I noticed 92% crit chance in character screen when i checked it (i do it to be sure). So, i got:

t.d.: 8. RESULT: 25.

Comment: Yep. 25 shots. Very mostly - crits. Top-damage crit was 37, and several crits were above 30 as well. You can figure, with crit chance of 92%, it works fast.

B4.2.
Everything the same, but with "usual" 2xVoodoo (thus 52% crit):

t.d.: 8. t.c.d.: 36. RESULT: 47.
t.c.d. is "top crit damage", ofcourse. Side note: only now i got a hit from a turret once. It really seems that these turrets have same chances (and very small chances, i must add) to hit proning, 34AC target - at any range between ~9 and 20 tiles.

Lowest crit for single-fire mode i noticed - was 1 damage.


Chapter B5.

Testing burst fire!

Everything else same to previous test (2xB.R.D, 2xVoodoo, etc, and to remind - AK-47 have 24-rounds clip in FoT, and fire bursts of 5, so last burst is 4 shots, not 5. I do tests in CTB, and i let character to reload the gun himself). RESULT for bursts - number of bursts, and i'll add precise ammo-spent, too.

B5.1.
Character is located still there - see third picture of this post:

t.d.: 12. t.c.d: 74. RESULT: 21. Ammo spent: 101.

more tries, very same turret and everything else also the same (reloading the game for each test), cause "it was too fast!" :

- t.d.: 7. t.c.d.: 117. RESULT: 7. Ammo spent : 34. //second highest crit was 88, and turret have only 349 hit points... =)
- t.d.: 12. t.c.d.: 82. RESULT: 21. Ammo spent: 101. //character was hurt by the turret's fire: -10HP. I mean, in one of many tries, turret was able to actually hit the character. In further tests, i'll add " -HP: number1:number2 " field for each test, to list number of hits and total damage, taken in a fight, if any ( hits:total damage ).
- t.d.: 18. t.c.d: 67. RESULT: 18. Ammo spent: 87. -HP: 1:17.
- t.d.: 12. t.c.d: 76. RESULT: 10. Ammo spent: 48. -HP: 0.
- t.d.: 9. t.c.d:103 . RESULT: 18. Ammo spent: 87. -HP: 0.
- t.d.: 12. t.c.d: 82. RESULT: 19. Ammo spent: 92. -HP: 0.
- t.d.: 13. t.c.d: 108. RESULT: 14. Ammo spent: 68. -HP: 0.
- t.d.: 17. t.c.d: 77. RESULT: 27. Ammo spent: 130. -HP: 0.

For ALL burst tests, lower non-crit burst damage was 0 (and that happened not so rarely), and lower crit-burst damage was 3.

B5.2.
Closer range. At about 9 tiles, my 34 AC, proning Kamikaze character was pretty unharmed by the turret's fire. So, why not to move a little bit closer for some more bursts? How about twice closer, i.e., - 4.5 tiles? Character moved into position while turret was turned off, and i saved the game before doing tests. Picture of character at work:


So, let's do 5 more "frags" of the poor turret :
- t.d.: 16. t.c.d: 62. RESULT: 24. Ammo spent: 116. -HP: 2:35. //It hurts here, ouch! =)
- t.d.: 6. t.c.d: 111. RESULT: 8. Ammo spent: 39. -HP: 2:36. //No, it really hurts here, really! ;/
- t.d.: 14. t.c.d: 76. RESULT: 16. Ammo spent: 101. -HP: 0. //But not if you're lucky.
- t.d.: 12. t.c.d: 47. RESULT: 34. Ammo spent: 164. -HP: 0. //Turret wasn't good at shooting... Me too. Hehe.
- t.d.: 18. t.c.d: 88. RESULT: 14. Ammo spent: 68. -HP: 1:12.

Lowest non-critical burst: 0. Lowest critical burst: 0 (at last! =) And you can see that on the picture above, near the cursor).


This concludes my AK-47 tests, as moving at point-blank range to the turret is a suicide, - in CTB mode and solo, i mean. In TB mode and with whole squad, i take one turret out in less than 2..4 turns of fire. With shotguns, energy knives, and main character bursting his AK-47, that is.

End of 08.01.2007 edit.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

1504 is an extra damage critical, there are different types of criticals, extra damage, blinding, unconciousness, knock down, damage/destroy weapon, winded, crippled limb, bypass armour and instant death. I can't remember how the extra damage critical was handled in the RPGs but in FOT it looks like it's your damage rolled multiplied by your critical chance.

Extra damage does seem to rarer than instant death, instant death doesn't do the extra damage just kills the character.

As for the drugs, well each drug has an overdose value and your character can only take so many before they collapse depending on their endurance. A character with endurance 2 has a tolerance of 85, while an endurance of 10 gives you a limit of 255 IIRC (I'm not sure if this is affected by strength or not). Voodoo has an overdose level of 35, buffout 50. Raising your endurance with buffout temporarily raises that level, but is also adding 50 overdose points at a time. Try taking one voodoo and one psycho without any other drugs, below endurance 5.

But let me ask you this. How long on average does it take you to complete a mission? Once you've taken those drugs, you've got two hours real time to complete the mission and get to the world map. If you don't when the drugs wear off your stats will drop -2 strength, -1 endurance and -2 agility per drug. Now that's not a drop from your drug enduced 11/12 but from your base stats. So if you're not off the map in two hours you'll be stuck with 1 strength, 1 endurance and 4 agility for six hours real time. Not forgetting any other modifiers from mentats or the other drugs. Plus you'll be overdosed and receiving one hitpoint worth of damage every 5-6 seconds.

 

[WVr]

Drugs ARE bad, i know it, thanks. In any case, they are only for "emergencies", if we speak about regular gameplay (not tests, hehe).

Two hours is a lot to get past the place which one can't pass *without* help of drugs. For me, such things don't happen so far - i am able to "go through" without any drug, except anti-radiation ones where required. But i keep drugs on main character - just in case such situation will arise. You see, i like this motto: "prepare yourself for the worst, and then, may be, this "worst" won't happen".

But in any case, - thanks for detailed, compact, and quite essential info about drugs, - useful to know!

In tests, i used them just to get various changes to the character quickly, especially to observe crit damage values without waiting for them for long - Voodoo increase crit chance, very convinient. I won't go that mission itself with drugs in regular gameplay, except single rad-X, which is very helpfull for this mission in particular. If that (and careful walking - choosing where and how to go) won't prevent getting some dose of radiation - surely i'll use rad-aways as required after leaving irradiated area. But that's it for my "tolerable" list of drugs, - antidote is not a drug at all, as far as i know.

One question, though: how fast "overdose" value of drug drops down? Once again, i was able to eat 2 Voodoos, then wait for several minutes, and then eat two more. It's 4 voodoo, all influencing the character at the same time (92% crit, to remind), - at i wasn't in overdosed state! Given the fact that 3 Voodoos in a row (eaten one after another, at same moment) - overdose my character with 100% probability, - i can't suppose anything but simple thing, already mentioned above: overdose value of a drug (at least, of Voodoo in paricular) drops down quite quickly... Is it so? Any details?


Oh. And one thing. I made over a thousand aimed shots. Several hundreds of critical hits in aimed mode. If that 1504 crit was extra-damage, then it means I got ZERO instant-deaths in my test. I see three possibilities to explain:
1. Rather low gun-skill. May be instant-death critical have zero chances to happen if gun-skill is lower than certain value?
2. Better Criticals perk: may be this perk "turn on" instant-death criticals?
3. Big difference in levels: could it be that your tests were performed with relatively high-level character against low-level target?
I can't see any other thing that could be present in your tests, while absent in mine.

About extra-damage critical: character had 52% critical chance at that moment. With perks he had, maximum "usual" critical damage i was able to register - was 29. Now, 52x29 = 1508. Very close, yes. Perhaps, extra-damage-roll would only happen if maximum "usual" critical damage "already" rolled to happen? Just a guess, though, but that would explain "rarity" of extra-damage criticals in more rational way, i think.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Overdose points seem to last approximately 4 minutes.

Voodoo effects only last 20 minutes, then you'll drop 1 agility and 3 luck per drug.

Radaway has a 10% chance of addiction and 15 overdose points. Also unless your character is totally radiated and at risk of dying there's no need to take more than one radaway. If you can get to the world map or afford to wait 1hr 43mins a single radaway will remove a total of 160 radiation points.

My tests were initially conducted with the straw dummy target and a level 9 character. Additional tests were carried out (with same character) against a level 4 raider, level 8 super mutant (both in armour) and a level 10 humanoid robot. The instant death critical did appear without better criticals or even finesse.

It's more likely that the extra damage critical came from having a high critical chance. Normally without drugs the maximum it could possibly be is 37. Though it's quite possible, for example, that when you get a critical of 44 with a chance of 22 it was because your damage was initially 2 and you scored an extra damage critical.

 

[WVr]

Aha! So, only 4 minutes to drop overdose points of voodoo. Very useful to know - if i ever will find myself totally unable to beat something without drugs, that is, which is... doubtful.

My tests were initially conducted with the straw dummy target and a level 9 character. Additional tests were carried out (with same character) against a level 4 raider, level 8 super mutant (both in armour) and a level 10 humanoid robot. The instant death critical did appear without better criticals or even finesse.

I see. So, it seems to me now that it's about higher gun skill to get instant death hits - once again, most part of my tests were made with gun skill of 108%. Really not so high. I'll check it out in the future, anyways.

Edit: and i have another idea. Perhaps it does matter which part of the body we aim at? Perhaps "sudden death" can happen with aim at the eyes only? Because in my tests above, i aimed in the head. And i noticed one critical of "disarm" type when i made aimed shot at *hand* of one super-mutant in my usual gameplay.

Edit: also, at the moment, i am as far as before Newton mission, playing my charismatic sniper main character. So, with his 8 of Charisma, and without any Brown Noser, - he's at rank 11 now, and can get rank 12 temporarily by eating 2xMentats. Well, general is 13th rank, and Clarisse should be available after Newton (as far as i know; perhaps, i could hire her even *before* Newton?). Right now i just don't have high enough rank, yep! I wonder, is it possible to get rank 13 before Newton - i.e., did i miss (or did wrong) something(s) during the mission(s) before? Anyways, for me here, Charisma=8 seems not so high to have. And last but not least, reading all the reports of people saying that other recruits do NOT grow in ranks during the game, - i really suspect that higher charisma of main character makes other recruits to grow in ranks faster. As i already said in other thread, now, before Newton, i have my Rage having rank=5, and my Ice having rank=4 - without any brown nosers.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

First time a recruit got promoted for me was with a charisma 1 main character. With a bit of testing (If I play the first mission ever again I'll think I'm going to scream) Farsight got promoted 50% of the time, with a main character of charisma 1, 2, 3, 7 & 9. Though that was with an edited bunker map. I've never seen it happen in a totaly unmodified game.