Some Fallout lore questions...

Q

Question2

It Wandered In From the Wastes
-Why do most super mutants keep their lips peeled back? This might be a fallout 3+ thing.

-In the lore, just how effective is t-45 or t-51 armor at protecting the wearer? In FO1 and 2, it makes you pretty much immune to anything short of a big gun, or end game weapons like gauss, plasma and pulse (short of critical hits of course). FO3's usage of damage resistance meant that raiders with assault rifles could easily kill BOS soldiers in power armor, which is obviously non-canonical. New Vegas's DT system improved that somewhat, but shows that riot armor has the same level of protection as T-45 armor (and almost as much as T-51 armor) which obviously makes no sense.

-Does the brotherhood in FO4 have any idea that the NCR-Brotherhood war has occured? All my searching has suggested that it is not mentioned in FO4 at all. It seems odd that they would be rushing off to invade the commonwealth when the brotherhood in the west is reduced to hiding in bunkers.
 
Question2 said:
-Why do most super mutants keep their lips peeled back? This might be a fallout 3+ thing.
Click to expand...
It's a leather strap—presumably to secure their irradiated teeth in place.

*Funny how Harry, and the Lieutenant can pronounce words with M's in them. ;)
 
Question2 said:
-Does the brotherhood in FO4 have any idea that the NCR-Brotherhood war has occured? All my searching has suggested that it is not mentioned in FO4 at all. It seems odd that they would be rushing off to invade the commonwealth when the brotherhood in the west is reduced to hiding in bunkers.
Click to expand...
Because Bethesda wanted BoS in the East Coast regardless if it made any internal logic sense or contradicted past events.
 
Question2 said:
-Does the brotherhood in FO4 have any idea that the NCR-Brotherhood war has occured? All my searching has suggested that it is not mentioned in FO4 at all. It seems odd that they would be rushing off to invade the commonwealth when the brotherhood in the west is reduced to hiding in bunkers.
Click to expand...
Because Bethesda desperately either want to erase Fallout New Vegas from existence or retcon it to high hell. Bethesda hate New Vegas because people generally like it more then their pathetic excuse of a Fallout game which was Fallout 3. You can see it too in Fallout 4 and it's DLC's. Cabot House was a big "FUCK YOU!" to New Vegas while Far Harbor threw some shade towards New Vegas and it's modding community like stealing a quest from the great quest mod Autumn Leaves.
 
1. In the lore, a power armored soldier is like a walking tank, able to wipe out entire platoons of infantrymen without taking a scratch. This is portrayed well in the original games, but the Bethesda games really nerfed power armor for balance and simplicity’s sake.

2. I’ll give you a Watsonian answer here, which is more than Bethesda deserves. The east coast brotherhood are essentially a separate entity from the west coasters. I don’t think they are even in contact with the elders across the country anymore. Even if they are aware that the brotherhood is struggling, it’s not a good idea to send a military force across the continent to help them out, unless the east coast brotherhood has a ton of manpower. If the east coast brotherhood attempted this they would no doubt be wiped out by the Big Bad in Fallout 5.
 
A lot of this is going to be little more than logical extrapolation (possibly even a degree of fanon), but bear with me:

Question2 said:
-Why do most super mutants keep their lips peeled back? This might be a fallout 3+ thing.
Click to expand...

The only times we see full-face mutant models in the first Fallout game are The Lieutenant and Harry, both of who bear lip straps. It always looked to me like the process was suggesting something of an issue with the FEV's quad-helix mutation process-- that their lips and jowls were too fleshy to facilitate unimpeded speech and needed to be held back. The fact that they didn't add this to Marcus' model in F2 was probably, at least in part, to tacitly put on the record that the condition wasn't universal. Whoever was doing the research for F3 didn't look quite that deep, though, or else thought "hey, that's a good iconic Fallout look, everyone is going to love this."

Side note: while the F03 mutie design choices were annoying, I actually really earnestly did appreciate the attention to detail that went into making sure they all sounded like their lips were being peeled back in dialogue.

-In the lore, just how effective is t-45 or t-51 armor at protecting the wearer? In FO1 and 2, it makes you pretty much immune to anything short of a big gun, or end game weapons like gauss, plasma and pulse (short of critical hits of course). FO3's usage of damage resistance meant that raiders with assault rifles could easily kill BOS soldiers in power armor, which is obviously non-canonical. New Vegas's DT system improved that somewhat, but shows that riot armor has the same level of protection as T-45 armor (and almost as much as T-51 armor) which obviously makes no sense.
Click to expand...

t-51 Power Armor alone would have been enough to win America the war if the nukes hadn't launched-- it was that good. It was literally made to go toe-to-toe with Chinese tank batallions and win through. In the exodus of the Brotherhood from Mariposa to Lost Hills, no armored personnel were lost despite (at times) heavy raider activity targeting the convoys. It was only vulnerable to the most advanced weaponry, which is why it was only ever lost going up against old-world bases or The Enclave.

t45 was specifically created for Van Buren (Black Isle's cancelled Fallout 3) as a lower-grade production snapshot in the power armor project so that the early- to mid-game player could have access to the coolness of PA without it being an instant win button-- it was far less protective and it actually had maintenance requirements. How it was supposed to have stacked up against t51 in terms of survivability I'm afraid I can't say.

-Does the brotherhood in FO4 have any idea that the NCR-Brotherhood war has occured? All my searching has suggested that it is not mentioned in FO]4 at all. It seems odd that they would be rushing off to invade the commonwealth when the brotherhood in the west is reduced to hiding in bunkers.
Click to expand...

By FO4 contact with the West Coast chapter(s) of the Brotherhood had been re-established, so, at least in broad strokes, the Eastern Brotherhood must be aware of the NCR war. Bethesda's lack of a unified vision for the Brotherhood of Steel and their unwillingness to square with New Vegas' canon and creators make it all pretty iffy, though. Sort of how the entirety of the Eastern Brotherhood/Outcasts conflict was covered in New Vegas solely through Veronica's reference to "one chapter having a small civil war" over a disagreement, and NV and F3 both only breathing hints around the edges of the existence of the Midwestern Brotherhood. It's all sort of a balkanized plot singularity at this point.
 
What I really want to know is if we can ever expect to see a Super Mutant with big tits? Maybe some kind of....NEW BATCH?
 
Gizmo you are talking about Old Fallout. Nu Fallout you can turn a Super Mutant back into a human no fucking problem. There can be all new Super Mutants that deal with GENDER ISSUES.
 
I mean, say what you will, Tabitha was a national treasure.
 
Yes but Tabitha was funny and brought joy to anyone who listened to her. If Twitter demands that Bethesda implement Super Mutant gender issues we wouldn't have any fun or joy. It would just be a lecture and pity party that will be as ham fisted as the politics in The Last of Us 2. Even after getting what they want Twitter will still bitch. Such is the nature of that beast.
 
Gizmojunk said:
Doubtful. Vree had one on the autopsy table, and couldn't tell if it was male or female.
Click to expand...
Honestly Gizmo, I absolutely love how you've seemigly memorised every minor detail from the first 2 games, and regularly use them to prove why a discussion matters.

Mad respect. Your commitment to the lore is impressive even by NMA standards :salute:
 
In Fallout lore, Power Armor was never "like a tank". We have the specifications of the most powerful PA in the classic games, and it's not even close to a tank in terms of protection. I will quote a couple of my past posts around here:
Although, by the technical terms provided by the games, It is much weaker than any tank.
The T-51b shell is lightweight and capable of absorbing over 2500 Joules of kinetic impact.
Click to expand...
Now that is not really that much protection. I will quote someone else here because they explained better than i can at the moment:
The T-51,we already know, is 2500 joules (2.5 kilojoules), which is enough to resist a 5.56x45mm (5.56) round in real life since those rounds around 1700-1800 joules depending on the type. However, it's not enough to resist a 7.62x51mm (.308) round in real life because those are 3300+ joules. You can also factor in sloping depending on the area of the armor being hit, but it's not going to make a dramatic difference usually.
Click to expand...
So a 7.62x51mm or .308 can already pass the limit of the T-51. Now if we look at Fallout games, most weapons that use those calibers (.308 and 7.62z51mm) wouldn't even scratch a real tank:

Fallout 2:
  • M60
  • FN FAL
Fallout Tactics:
  • Hunting rifle
  • Sniper rifle
  • Vindicator minigun
  • AK47
  • M249 SAW
  • M60
  • FN FAL
Van Buren:
  • 7.62mm assault rifle
Fallout 3:
  • Sniper rifle
Fallout New Vegas:
  • Automatic rifle
  • Battle rifle
  • Hunting rifle
  • Sniper rifle
Fallout 4:
  • Hunting rifle
  • Pipe bolt-action
  • Combat rifle (modified)
  • Pipe revolver (modified)
  • Handmade rifle
Click to expand...
The specifications of Power Armor as seen in the first games specifically says that T-51b can only resist 2500 joules of kinetic impact. This is not even close to being a tank. Here is a short table of some common cartridges kinetic energy, just for reference:
.45 - 540 joules
9mm - 475 joules
.22 - 1,009 joules
.223/5.56mm - 1,822 joules
.30 - 1,308 joules
.30-30 - 2,560 joules
7.62mm - 2,045 joules
.303 - 3,469 joules
.308/7.62x51mm - 3,744 joules
.458 Magnum - 6,822 joules
.450 Magnum - 9,040 joules
.460 Magnum - 10,187 joules
.50 caliber - 17,149 joules
Click to expand...
Notice how .308 deals a whooping 3,744 joules of kinetic impact. That is a shot from a hunting rifle... Not even using AP ammo.

I never understood how people keep saying PA is a tank, it is not a tank and never was supposed to be.
Click to expand...
 
The 2,500 joules figure doesnt strike me as making much sense to be honest. Imagine spending so much money on researching power armor that can be easily penetrated by 7.62mmx51, which is a common round.

In FO 2, the m60 using 7.62mmx51 on a per shot basis averages slightly more than 6 damage per round, which doesnt strike me as very impressive. It averages 22 damage on a per round basis before armor.

IRL, we have level IV body armor that can stop 7.62mmx51 AP just fine, so it seems odd that T-51 wouldnt be able to top that. Perhaps the devs simply thought that 2,500 sounded high enough when they were making fallout.

I think one important point might be that joules for caliber are measured as muzzle energy, but i'm not sure how much of a difference this makes at typical engangement ranges.
 
Yeah I think the joules figure was something they pulled out of their ass and didn't really think about at all. For the Power-Armor to be a game changer, it'd have to be more than glorified kevlar.
 
Question2 said:
The 2,500 joules figure doesnt strike me as making much sense to be honest. Imagine spending so much money on researching power armor that can be easily penetrated by 7.62mmx51, which is a common round.

In FO 2, the m60 using 7.62mmx51 on a per shot basis averages slightly more than 6 damage per round, which doesnt strike me as very impressive. It averages 22 damage on a per round basis before armor.

IRL, we have level IV body armor that can stop 7.62mmx51 AP just fine, so it seems odd that T-51 wouldnt be able to top that. Perhaps the devs simply thought that 2,500 sounded high enough when they were making fallout.

I think one important point might be that joules for caliber are measured as muzzle energy, but i'm not sure how much of a difference this makes at typical engangement ranges.
Click to expand...
It's what the games tells us.

But even if one was to disregard the 2500 joules, there's still the weapon damage on a character using a PA in game. We can even use your example of the m60:
Like you said, it averages at 22 damage per round when hitting unarmored targets. T-51b has a DT of 12 against normal damage, so it reduces those 22 damage to 10 right off the bat, then T-51b also has a DR of of 40 against normal damage, so it reduces the damage to a final of 6 (like you said). So this indeed proves that PA is not a tank.

Using real world logic in a game like Fallout doesn't make sense, for example in our real world, we can't just get "tougher" and be able to reduce bullet damage without wearing armor by up to 30% for example.
Atomic Postman said:
Yeah I think the joules figure was something they pulled out of their ass and didn't really think about at all. For the Power-Armor to be a game changer, it'd have to be more than glorified kevlar.
Click to expand...
The Power armor was a game changer not because of protecting the soldier like a tank, but because soldiers could carry (and use) heavy weapons and supplies. Real tanks and trucks and even airforce vehicles (that was why the vertibird was just being trialed) were mostly out of commission because of the lack of fuel. So having powered soldiers that could use powerful artillery weapons and could carry all the supplies over long treks on enemy territory was a game changer.

EDIT: Here's a quote from the Fallout Bible Timeline:

The first suit of Power Armor is deployed in Alaska. While lacking the
full mobility of future versions, this Power Armor is incredibly
effective against Chinese tanks and infantry. Its ability to carry heavy
ordinance becomes key in various localized conflicts
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Risewild said:
It's what the games tells us.

But even if one was to disregard the 2500 joules, there's still the weapon damage on a character using a PA in game. We can even use your example of the m60:
Like you said, it averages at 22 damage per round when hitting unarmored targets. T-51b has a DT of 12 against normal damage, so it reduces those 22 damage to 10 right off the bat, then T-51b also has a DR of of 40 against normal damage, so it reduces the damage to a final of 6 (like you said). So this indeed proves that PA is not a tank.

Using real world logic in a game like Fallout doesn't make sense, for example in our real world, we can't just get "tougher" and be able to reduce bullet damage without wearing armor by up to 30% for example.

The Power armor was a game changer not because of protecting the soldier like a tank, but because soldiers could carry (and use) heavy weapons and supplies. Real tanks and trucks and even airforce vehicles (that was why the vertibird was just being trialed) were mostly out of commission because of the lack of fuel. So having powered soldiers that could use powerful artillery weapons and could carry all the supplies over long treks on enemy territory was a game changer.

EDIT: Here's a quote from the Fallout Bible Timeline:
Click to expand...


That's interesting. I mean, I still think that the developers intended it to be extremely powerful as armor alone and I doubt they would have agreed with the assertion that it's not got the halting power of some modern body armors, but the point about it being useful in allowing an infantryman to carry a fully-loaded minigun or Plasma Caster unassisted and indefinitely is a good one. I never thought PA was literally equivalent to a tank personally because otherwise the NCR-BoS war makes zero sense. I also imagine its internal systems were quite good at keeping its soldiers temperature controlled in places like the Gobi Desert (Or the American southwest, as it would later turn out)

It's also worth noting that the T-51b has a remarkably high amount of protection against Lasers (although Plasma is equivalent to ballistics roughly) with a DR of 80% and a DT of 18. Total speculation but if Chinese infantry were equipped with Laser Weapons, it makes sense that Power Armor of the Americans with space age alloys would be extremely useful.
 
Atomic Postman said:
That's interesting. I mean, I still think that the developers intended it to be extremely powerful as armor alone and I doubt they would have agreed with the assertion that it's not got the halting power of some modern body armors
Click to expand...
But the thing is that ingame PA is extremely powerful. It reduces all damage by at least 10 and up to 20 depending on damage type, and then reduces the remaining damage by at least 40% and up to 80% depending on weapon type.

If we look at the game's weapon damage, we can see how powerful PA really is. It makes the vast majority of weapons in the game cause no or very little damage (between 0 and less than 10 per attack/round). It also protects the wearer from the most powerful weapons:
  • Mega Power Fist damage is 20 to 40. With a PA that damage becomes 4.8 to 16.8.
  • Super Sledge damage is 18 to 36. With a PA that damage becomes 3.6 to 14.4.
  • PPK12 Gauss Pistol damage is 22 to 32. With a PA that damage becomes 6 to 12.
  • H&K G11E damage is 13 to 23. With a PA that damage becomes 0.4 to 6.6.
  • M72 Gauss Rifle damage is 32 to 43. With a PA that damage becomes 12 to 18.6.
  • Pancor Jackhammer damage is 18 to 29. With a PA that damage becomes 3.6 to 10.2.
  • Bozar damage is 25 to 35. With a PA that damage becomes 7.8 to 9.2.
  • Improved Flamer damage is 45 to 90. With a PA that damage becomes 13.2 to 31.2.
  • Rocket Launcher damage is 35 to 100. With a PA that damage becomes 7.5 to 40.
  • Alien Blaster damage is 30 to 90. With a PA that damage becomes 10.8 to 46.8.
  • YK42B Pulse Rifle damage is 54 to 78. With a PA that damage becomes 25.2 to 39.6.
  • Plasma Grenade damage is 40 to 90. With a PA that damage becomes 18 to 48.
  • Plastic Explosives damage is 40 to 80. With a PA that damage becomes 10 to 30.

And this is without counting the Hardened version.

PA is extremely powerful ingame. But it's far from being as protective as a tank. I think that what confused people was that when the Fallout Bible mentions PA as a tank, it means being able to pack a punch as a tank (like that quote I posted before shows). Being able to blast defenses using heavy weaponry. It also still provides good protection to the wearer (most if not all low caliber weaponry can't really damage the wearer), just not like an actual tank. :roffle:
I don't know why people saying PA is a tank buggers me so much... Maybe it's because I was in the artillery and armored division when I was in the army. :scratch:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top