Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick; You Will Go Far

1. We are talking about terrorists, "human beings" who have little if any respect for life, so why should we be so merciful with them? If they were somehow compelled to do this by someone/something and they could in no way avoid doing what they did mercy could be considered. But in this case... the SOB must die!
2. The Guard should be severely punished, because he is probably no better than the terrorist, if he did it just because he felt it necessary and it wasn't really.
Besides torture can also mean a distortion of time through drugs, putting the subject on a 2h awake 1/2 h asleep program, make him think he has been there for ever, to soften him up. Physical violence is not necessary. what the american soldiers did in the prison is in no way excusable, they made a huge mistake and they should have to pay for it.
 
The main problem is that 90%-70% of these people in Abu Gharib are innocent, thus these are innocent people having to rape eachother. That's the absurd and disgusting thing.
 
Torture should not be used in any situation because it is ineffective and amoral.
Can you not read? Like...at all?
Let me rephrase:
A) How can it be immoral to submit one person to torture to save the lives of many?
B) It is effective, if used correctly. This is what, apparently, came out of that investigation made by the person who wrote the article CCR was talking (and linking) about.

1. We are talking about terrorists, "human beings" who have little if any respect for life, so why should we be so merciful with them? If they were somehow compelled to do this by someone/something and they could in no way avoid doing what they did mercy could be considered. But in this case... the SOB must die!
We should be merciful with them because that is what we stand for.
If we forget what we stand for, and we just do what they do, then we stoop to their level, and in effect, someone should come and kill us.

Besides torture can also mean a distortion of time through drugs, putting the subject on a 2h awake 1/2 h asleep program, make him think he has been there for ever, to soften him up. Physical violence is not necessary. what the american soldiers did in the prison is in no way excusable, they made a huge mistake and they should have to pay for it.
The point is that this as well should be illegal. Because it is the ultimate slippery slope. And that is very dangerous.
Make it illegal, but practice it (it being coercion, not torture) anyway. That way the people who do practice it know that they will be punished if caught, and that thusly they personally will be held responsible.

You know, people should really read the articles given.
 
c0ldst33ltrs4u said:
I agree with Welsh. Terrorists should be spared no torture, if it is necessary. The question here is what are/were the prisoners from Abu Gharib? And if they were terrorists the least those morons could have done would have been to not get caught? Who the fuck had the idiotic idea of making photos/ letting someone take photos? It's not like that was the Christmas Party at work when you get the women drunk and make them xerox their ass, then make those pictures part of a memo just for the laugh!

Cold, I think you might be misunderstanding me.

My point was primarily to distinguish that terrorists are not really soldiers or civilians but perhaps some kind of in-between actor more like pirates.

Soldiers get international legal protection because they are merely the citizens of states that have either volunteered or been conscripted to serve as the agents of the state. Civilians get protection because they are non-combatants.

Historically pirates- private individuals who used violence for their own ends (usually for profit but some times for ideology- ie the pirates of the barbary coast were primarily muslim raiders) kind of fit the bill. Most states don't recognize them as legitimate and would normally think of them as criminals, although some states may protect and even profit from their activities.

That said, what you have going on in Iraq is something quite different.

International law is, like most law, essentially moral choices and judgements achieved through political processes. THe reasons why we have laws of war on the protection of soldiers, civilians, ability to use poison gas or indiscriminate bombing is because the countries of the world have gotten together, said, "hey this is a problem" and have reached a consensus as to how they are supposed to act. Normally this happens by way of a treaty, but sometimes it is found in custom or in the practice of states.

International crimes, derived from Nuremburg, have expanded. Now we can prosecute people like Chile's Pinochet, or Liberia's Taylor for crimes committed against their own people. Indeed, if Saddam were to escape liability in Iraq under Iraq's national law, he could probably still be held accountable in other states for other international crimes (crimes against the peace) . International criminals suffer, like pirates, because they can be caught, captured, tried and hung in any state that gets jurisdiction over them.

This creates some problems. Terrorism is one of those bad grey areas. Because of difficulties in defining terrorism countries have focused on terrorist acts. There are twelve international conventions which address specific terrorist acts such as hostage taking, hijacking, terrorist bombings; and support activities such as terrorism financing. However terrorism, per se, is not really an act but a strategy. You can think of terrorism as a form of psychological warfare in which the idea is to use terror to acheive political and military goals. One might also think of terrorism as a form of violent protest.

Is a terrorist act less criminal because of who commits it? If a union boss calls up a corporate boss and threatens to blow up his house and kill his children if he doesn't cave in on a labor- management strike- that's terrorism. But then so might be the corporate boss if he hires members of the mafia to assassinate union leaders.

If we look at this as political or military issue- if the IRA blows up a bar frequented by soldiers in Ireland is it that much different from Israel dropping cluster bombs on a camp of Palestinian civilian refugees? Perhaps in this case the IRA case is more legitimate because, if you accept them as legitimate combatants, they are attacking a military target, while the Israeli bombing was a terrorist strike.

Better perhaps to focus on targets. If the target is civilian, no good. If the target is military, it's kosher. So for instance, an act of terrorism that might be valid psychological warfare is if the US military castrated dead Afghani Taliban troopers. A bad act might be naplaming a village of Afghanistan that the US believes is supporting the Taliban.

More on the UN rules on terrorims- http://www.unodc.org/unodc/terrorism_convention_overview.html

From Harvard on the legalities-
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/hrj/iss12/murphy.shtml

Now the problem-
If terrorism, or more appropriately acts of terrorism, are considered to be international crimes, the history of torture as an international crime is longer.

From the Harvard article above-
There is a wide range of international legal instruments that implicitly or explicitly prohibit torture. Until recently, these instruments simply imposed obligations on states to refrain from and to take preventive action against the practice..... defined in the 1984 of the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. As of September 1, 1998, 106 states were parties to the Torture Convention.

The Torture Convention’s definition of torture is generally regarded as the most authoritative. Under the Convention torture is defined as:

[A]ny act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession,
punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

The Convention does not permit any “exceptional circumstances whatever” to be invoked as a justification of torture. The scope of its definition of torture, however, is a matter of some ambiguity. It is clear that the list of purposes for which the severe pain is inflicted on the victim is illustrative only and that the perpetrator of the torture need not be a public official, although a public authority must have ordered or acquiesced in the action. Precisely what situations would be covered by the Convention’s required nexus to official conduct is less clear. It would appear that the Convention does not address torture committed by a purely private group.

Thus the problems for the US. Many acts of terrorism are considered criminal. Torture is criminal. If it is found that our soldiers committed torture on the Iraqi prisoners, they committed a crime of international law. Furthermore, if they did so under orders from superiors, those superiors are also liable.

Honestly, I had thought that the Iraqi prisoner abuse was the consequence of a bunch of dipshit young adults with too much power and too much time on their hands which led to abuse. This could have been expected. If it could have been expected than those who should have expected it are responsible.

But let's be serious here.

First - yOu take a bunch of civilians and send them to Guantanamo and keep them detained for years.

Next the INS incarcerates foreign nationals in jails whose only crime was that they wanted to escape the shithole country where they live to find a better life in the US.

(Hey remember what it says on the statute of liberty?

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at the sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost, to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”[/quote]

Or did we forget that?)

Now you have Iraqi POWs and civilians who have done nothing wrong being sexually assaulted in Iraq.

ANd this in the name of preventing terrorism?
 
What pisses me off about this situation the most is this is one incident...

yeah, it should never have happened..

Why are we not talking about the beheadings? The bombings, the attacks on american soldiers. The use of a chemical weapon recenty that was never even publisized on tv..

Those iraqi's in the prison were not murdered, they were not tortured, they werent beheaded and videotaped for all the world to see. And despite all this, The US is still the bad guys.

Thats just sick.
 
Elli- I agree that it's not fair.

I am still not seeing much on the use of chemical weapons. However, I am already wondering if this is a spin job.

I would think that the regular attacks on US troops, or the beheadings, was not unexpected. Atrocious, yes. But not unexpected. This was what we were getting into when we went to war. That people didn't plan for it, was just silly. This should have been anticipated.

Again, here is where the vietnam analogy is starting to fit again. Americans are getting killed on a daily basis, the fights are getting worse, the atrocities are clear, but slowly the public is becoming desensitized to it. Likewise the wounded and dead come home with little fanfare, the people that went to war as heroes come home with little notice. It's not right.

Honestly, I doubt whether the prison incident is a unique incident. There were allegations that the Brits were doing the same kind of thing. In fact, I would say we should expect this kind of thing more. Many of the atrocities committed against Vietnamese during the Vietnam War were not known until after the war. But even now, most americans are not aware of some of the real evil shit the Vietcong did. This is real ugly warfare, its insurgent, guerrilla and bloody in a personal way.

Is it fair? That we pay attention to the prison and not what else is going on. No. I would bet the the Iraqis are doing much worse than we are aware of. Blowing up a UN head quarters?

War is politics by other means, bro. That's the war you are fighting. The game is for a political victory but there are doubts whether that's happening. When the US occuppied Germany at the end of World War 2 there was resistance, but I doubt it was like this. THe US is seen as an invading army. Whether it is able to sell a different concept of the US as a liberating army is unclear. But it's about what people think and feel.

In fact from what it seems the Iraqi resistance seems to be targetting the governing council and other parts of the US effort to get Iraq to govern itself with the intention of derailing that effort which would actually keep the US in Iraq or send the US home with it's tail between it's legs. Undermine the ability of Iraq to govern itself and others will fill the power vacume.

Don't pay the Iraqi policeman and they might go to the other side. Put the Iraqi army out of work and they will be pissed off. This is a political battle- Are the Americans good guys or badguys, and the war has a lot to do with the messages you convey.

Honestly, I think that condemning the soldiers involved in the prison case is a bit silly. THis kind of thing should have been expected and was predictable. Put an undertrained person with a lot of power guarding a bunch of prisoners and you will see abuses. I mean, how much abuse do we see in prison or in mental health hospitals in the US?

But the US is an occupying force. The longer you have occupation troops in a country where they are regularly getting shot at the more likely they are to shoot back and do some pretty crappy things in return. American troops have often committed crimes against local folks- this is why the Okinawans want the Marines out. You have a big army with lots of young people getting shot at by an unclear enemy in what they see as a hostile land. THey are likekly to respond with violence. This is human nature.

Which is why the US should do the job it has to and get out as quickly as possible.

THe problem is that the prison case has discredited the nobility of the US efforts, it has made the Americans look like the bad guys here. Whether these idiots were doing it on their own, or if the higher ups knew it, the damage has been done.

Bush sent us to Iraq cloaked in the nobility of the effort- rid a dictator and give the country freedom. I think there was nobility in it. But it only takes a few assholes to blow it. If the US leadership knew about it, than they have fucked over the regular american troops getting shot at.

Because that's the problem. More americans will get shot at over this. More americans will get killed.

This is still a battle for the hearts and minds of the Iraqis. The US could have done a better job of it, the US should have. But I get the impression that those in charge underestimated the work that would be required and did a botch job.

THe price? That means more guys, like you, will get shot at. That also means that the costs to the US will grow. That means that the chance at doing the "right thing" in Iraq is slowly being lost and the character of the US has become questioned.

It's not fair, Elli. I agree. Most of the americans there are going because they believe it's the right thing, that there is a war against terrorism, and that the removal of Saddam was worth the price. These prison guards have fucked you guys, but I would think that the fuck up goes back further, to the leadership that sent you there without the planning, support or will to do the job right.

It looks like the US and UK are looking for a noble way out. But then why aren't they looking to finish the job and do it right.

I am not sure if the opportunity to do it right still exists. I hope so. Otherwise this will be a tragic failure.
 
As far as the treatment of the prisoners goes, 90% of what was doone to them is standard interrogation methods.. The same methods used against US soldiers in SERE school to prepair them mentally in case they are taken prisoner. Actually, SERE school's worse, they can beat the hell out of you there. Used to be they could break small bones in your hands and feet as well.

So a few iraqi's got stripped blindfolded, stacked and ridiculed... oh well, gotta break them down so that they can be interrogated.

As far as the whole vietnam scenario. 1 thing needs to happen that would make the situation a hell of a lot better, get all the fucking reporters out of there.

I'm normally not keen on censorship but it's clear to me that the media is doing nothing but actively trying to make the coalition forces look bad and force us to pull out before the jobs done.
 
I'm normally not keen on censorship but it's clear to me that the media is doing nothing but actively trying to make the coalition forces look bad and force us to pull out before the jobs done.
ARGH! Why does everyone always talk about "the media" as if it is one homogenous group? It isn't. There are many different news sources, and many different medias and media services. You are simply dead wrong in saying that the entire media is out to get you guys out of Iraq. (Which would be stupid, considering that that would do more harm than good. (UN is a different matter)).

But you're missing the point. The point is not that it's not fair: everyone knows those terrorists are fucks, and that's not news. Those atrocities committed by terrorists are constantly in the news, but they are not news anymore; everyone expects them to do that shit.

However, the US came in there to protect civilians and to uphold western morals (well, according to Bush's recent statements anyway), so they do not expect the USA to pull the same shit the terrorists are pulling because that would make the USA as bad as the terrorists.
THAT is why everyone is pissed and offended about it.
I still can't believe you're actually saying "Well, they do it, so why shouldn't we?", though.

As for censorship, no. The western world is a free world, and in a free world censorship should not exist. If you think that somehow NOT showing the public the truth would make things better, you are sadly mistaken.
 
Sander said:
However, the US came in there to protect civilians and to uphold western morals
Replace "western" with "Christian" and you'll be more in line with what Bush seems to want (IMO). Hence all the negative comparison with the crusades.

Sorry if this seems like flamebait, but it pisses me off that many people seem to equate morality with Christian morality. The American (majority) part of the coalition may be fine with this, but I would say that the rest of the coalition has a major problem with this, I certainly do.
As for censorship, no. The western world is a free world, and in a free world censorship should not exist. If you think that somehow NOT showing the public the truth would make things better, you are sadly mistaken.
I thin what Elly is gatting at is that the media are exaggerating the negative aspects of what is going on in Iraq, and not reporting the good that is happening there. It would seem from his comments that the US media is doing this more than the British media.
 
Replace "western" with "Christian" and you'll be more in line with what Bush seems to want (IMO). Hence all the negative comparison with the crusades.

Sorry if this seems like flamebait, but it pisses me off that many people seem to equate morality with Christian morality. The American (majority) part of the coalition may be fine with this, but I would say that the rest of the coalition has a major problem with this, I certainly do.
Name the largest scource of "western" morality?
 
Replace "western" with "Christian" and you'll be more in line with what Bush seems to want (IMO). Hence all the negative comparison with the crusades.

Sorry if this seems like flamebait, but it pisses me off that many people seem to equate morality with Christian morality. The American (majority) part of the coalition may be fine with this, but I would say that the rest of the coalition has a major problem with this, I certainly do.
Hey, I'm not one of them, and you would've known that if you'd read several of my posts a while back. :P

Name the largest scource of "western" morality?
Christianity. But western morality has been emancipated from Christianity, and it is therefore not the same as Christian morality (any more). This must be the tenth time I'm saying that.
I thin what Elly is gatting at is that the media are exaggerating the negative aspects of what is going on in Iraq, and not reporting the good that is happening there. It would seem from his comments that the US media is doing this more than the British media.
This, again, is bullshit. I watch CNN, and I notice a lot of things, and most of the news consists of "Iraqis killed [x] [non_Iraqi_nationality]s".
 
Sander said:
Hey, I'm not one of them, and you would've known that if you'd read several of my posts a while back. :P
I know that Sander. I wasn't arguing with/against you, I was simply commenting on something that you brought up.
 
Ok, here are a couple of things abotu the Abu Ghraib scandal that might be interesting to those of you interested-

Seymor Hersh who broke the story spoke about it on NPR-
http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml?display=day&todayDate=09/14/2004

Arguing that this was partly a consequence of Rumsfield's policy on terrorist questioning.

Also
Rumsfeld's Dirty War on Terror
The Guardian U.K.

Monday 13 September 2004

In an explosive extract from his new book, Seymour Hersh reveals how, in a fateful decision that led to the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison, the US defence secretary gave the green light to a secret unit authorised to torture terrorist suspects.
In the late summer of 2002, a CIA analyst made a quiet visit to the detention centre at the US Naval Base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, where an estimated 600 prisoners were being held, many, at first, in steel-mesh cages that provided little protection from the brutally hot sun. Most had been captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan during the campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaida.

The Bush administration had determined, however, that they were not prisoners of war but "enemy combatants", and that their stay at Guantánamo could be indefinite, as teams of CIA, FBI, and military interrogators sought to prise intelligence from them. In a series of secret memorandums written earlier in the year, lawyers for the White House, the Pentagon and the justice department had agreed that the prisoners had no rights under federal law or the Geneva convention. President Bush endorsed the finding, while declaring that the al-Qaida and Taliban detainees were nevertheless to be treated in a manner consistent with the principles of the Geneva convention - as long as such treatment was also "consistent with military necessity".

But the interrogations at Guantánamo were a bust. Very little useful intelligence had been gathered, while prisoners from around the world continued to flow into the base, and the facility constantly expanded. The CIA analyst had been sent there to find out what was going wrong. He was fluent in Arabic and familiar with the Islamic world. He was held in high respect within the agency, and was capable of reporting directly, if he chose, to George Tenet, the CIA director. The analyst did more than just visit and inspect. He interviewed at least 30 prisoners to find out who they were and how they ended up in Guantánamo. Some of his findings, he later confided to a former CIA colleague, were devastating.

"He came back convinced that we were committing war crimes in Guantánamo," the colleague told me. "Based on his sample, more than half the people there didn't belong there. He found people lying in their own faeces," including two captives, perhaps in their 80s, who were clearly suffering from dementia. "He thought what was going on was an outrage," the CIA colleague added. There was no rational system for determining who was important.

Two former administration officials who read the analyst's highly classified report told me that its message was grim. According to a former White House official, the analyst's disturbing conclusion was that "if we captured some people who weren't terrorists when we got them, they are now".

That autumn, the document rattled aimlessly around the upper reaches of the Bush administration until it got into the hands of General John A Gordon, the deputy national security adviser for combating terrorism, who reported directly to Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser and the president's confidante. Gordon, who had retired from the military as a four-star general in 2000 had served as a deputy director of the CIA for three years. He was deeply troubled and distressed by the report, and by its implications for the treatment, in retaliation, of captured American soldiers. Gordon, according to a former administration official, told colleagues that he thought "it was totally out of character with the American value system", and "that if the actions at Guantánamo ever became public, it'd be damaging to the president".

In the wake of the September 11 attacks, there had been much debate inside the administration about what was permissible in the treatment of prisoners and what was not. The most suggestive document, in terms of what was really going on inside military prisons and detention centres, was written in early August 2002 by Jay S Bybee, head of the justice department's office of legal counsel. "Certain acts may be cruel, inhuman, or degrading, but still not produce pain and suffering of the requisite intensity to fall within [a legal] proscription against torture," Bybee wrote to Alberto R Gonzales, the White House counsel. "We conclude that for an act to constitute torture, it must inflict pain that is difficult to endure. Physical pain amounting to torture must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death." (Bush later nominated Bybee to be a federal judge.)

"We face an enemy that targets innocent civilians," Gonzales, in turn, would tell journalists two years later, at the height of the furore over the abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. "We face an enemy that lies in the shadows, an enemy that doesn't sign treaties."

Gonzales added that Bush bore no responsibility for the wrongdoing. "The president has not authorised, ordered or directed in any way any activity that would transgress the standards of the torture conventions or the torture statute, or other applicable laws," Gonzales said. In fact, a secret statement of the president's views, which he signed on February 7, 2002 contained a loophole that applied worldwide: "I determine that none of the provisions of Geneva apply to our conflict with al-Qaida in Afghanistan or elsewhere throughout the world," the president asserted.

John Gordon had to know what he was up against in seeking a high-level review of prison policies at Guantánamo, but he persevered. Finally, the former White House official recalled, "We got it up to Condi."

As the CIA analyst's report was making its way to Rice, in late 2002 there were a series of heated complaints about the interrogation tactics at Guantánamo from within the FBI, whose agents had been questioning detainees in Cuba since the prison opened. A few of the agents began telling their superiors what they had witnessed, which, they believed, had little to do with getting good information.

"I was told," a senior intelligence official recalled, "that the military guards were slapping prisoners, stripping them, pouring cold water over them, and making them stand until they got hypothermia. The agents were outraged. It was wrong and also dysfunctional." The agents put their specific complaints in writing, the official told me, and they were relayed, in emails and phone calls, to officials at the department of defence, including William J Haynes II, the general counsel of the Pentagon. As far as day-to-day life for prisoners at Guantánamo was concerned, nothing came of it.

The unifying issue for General Gordon and his supporters inside the administration was not the abuse of prisoners at Guantánamo, the former White House official told me: "It was about how many more people are being held there that shouldn't be. Have we really got the right people?" The briefing for Condoleezza Rice about problems at Guantánamo took place in the autumn of 2002. It did not dwell on the question of torture or mistreatment. The main issue, the former White House official told me, was simply, "Are we getting any intelligence? What is the process for sorting these people?"

Rice agreed to call a high-level meeting in the White House situation room. Most significantly, she asked Secretary Rumsfeld to attend. Rums feld, who was by then publicly and privately encouraging his soldiers in the field to get tough with captured prisoners, duly showed up, but he had surprisingly little to say. One participant in the meeting recalled that at one point Rice asked Rumsfeld "what the issues were, and he said he hadn't looked into it". Rice urged Rumsfeld to do so, and added, "Let's get the story right." Rumsfeld seemed to be in agreement, and Gordon and his supporters left the meeting convinced, the former administration official told me, that the Pentagon was going to deal with the issue.

Nothing changed. "The Pentagon went into a full-court stall," the former White House official recalled. "I trusted in the goodness of man and thought we got something to happen. I was naive enough to believe that when a cabinet member" - he was referring to Rumsfeld - "says he's going to take action, he will."

Over the next few months, as the White House began planning for the coming war in Iraq, there were many more discussions about the continuing problems at Guantánamo and the lack of useful intelligence. No one in the Bush administration would get far, however, if he was viewed as soft on suspected al-Qaida terrorism. "Why didn't Condi do more?" the official asked. "She made the same mistake I made. She got the secretary of defence to say he's going to take care of it."

There was, obviously, a difference between the reality of prison life in Guantánamo and how it was depicted to the public in carefully stage-managed news conferences and statements released by the administration. American prison authorities have repeatedly assured the press and the public, for example, that the al-Qaida and Taliban detainees were provided with a minimum of three hours of recreation every week. For the tough cases, however, according to a Pentagon adviser familiar with detainee conditions in mid-2002, at recreation time some prisoners would be strapped into heavy jackets, similar to straitjackets, with their arms locked behind them and their legs straddled by straps. Goggles were placed over their eyes, and their heads were covered with a hood. The prisoner was then led at midday into what looked like a narrow fenced-in dog run - the adviser told me that there were photographs of the procedure - and given his hour of recreation. The restraints forced him to move, if he chose to move, on his knees, bent over at a 45-degree angle. Most prisoners just sat and suffered in the heat.

One of the marines assigned to guard duty at Guantánamo in 2003, who has since left the military, told me, after being promised anonymity, that he and his enlisted colleagues at the base were encouraged by their squad leaders to "give the prisoners a visit" once or twice a month, when there were no television crews, journalists, or other outside visitors at the prison.

"We tried to fuck with them as much as we could - inflict a little bit of pain. We couldn't do much," for fear of exposure, the former marine, who also served in Afghanistan, told me.

"There were always newspeople there," he said. "That's why you couldn't send them back with a broken leg or so. And if somebody died, I'd get court-martialled."

The roughing up of prisoners was sometimes spur-of-the-moment, the former marine said: "A squad leader would say, 'Let's go - all the cameras on lunch break.'" One pastime was to put hoods on the prisoners and "drive them around the camp in a Humvee, making turns so they didn't know where they were. [...] I wasn't trying to get information. I was just having a little fun - playing mind control." When I asked a senior FBI official about the former marine's account, he told me that agents assigned to interrogation duties at Guantánamo had described similar activities to their superiors.

In November 2002, army Major General Geoffrey Miller had relieved Generals Dunlavey and Baccus, unifying the command at Guantánamo. Baccus was seen by the Pentagon as soft - too worried about the prisoners' well-being. In Senate hearings after Abu Ghraib, it became known that Miller was permitted to use legally questionable interrogation techniques at Guantánamo, which could include, with approval, sleep deprivation, exposure to extremes of cold and heat, and placing prisoners in "stress positions" for agonising lengths of time.

In May 2004, the New York Times reported that the FBI had instructed its agents to avoid being present at interrogation sessions with suspected al-Qaida members. The newspaper said the severe methods used to extract information would be prohibited in criminal cases, and therefore could compromise the agents in future legal proceedings against the suspects. "We don't believe in coercion," a senior FBI official subsequently told me. "Our goal is to get information and we try to gain the prisoners' trust. We have strong feelings about it." The FBI official added, "I thought Rumsfeld should have been fired long ago."

"They did it the wrong way," a Pentagon adviser on the war on terror told me, "and took a heavy-handed approach based on coercion, instead of persuasion - which actually has a much better track record. It's about rage and the need to strike back. It's evil, but it's also stupid. It's not torture but acts of kindness that lead to concessions. The persuasive approach takes longer but gets far better results."

There was, we now know, a fantastical quality to the earnest discussions inside the White House in 2002 about the good and bad of the interrogation process at Guantánamo. Rice and Rumsfeld knew what many others involved in the prisoner discussions did not - that sometime in late 2001 or early 2002, the president had signed a top-secret finding, as required by law, authorising the defence department to set up a specially recruited clandestine team of special forces operatives and others who would defy diplomatic niceties and international law and snatch - or assassinate, if necessary - identified "high-value" al-Qaida operatives anywhere in the world.

Equally secret interrogation centres would be set up in allied countries where harsh treatments were meted out, unconstrained by legal limits or public disclosure. The programme was hidden inside the defence department as an "unacknowledged" special-access programme (SAP), whose operational details were known only to a few in the Pentagon, the CIA and the White House.

The SAP owed its existence to Rumsfeld's desire to get the US special forces community into the business of what he called, in public and internal communications, "manhunts", and to his disdain for the Pentagon's senior generals. In the privacy of his office, Rumsfeld chafed over what he saw as the reluctance of the generals and admirals to act aggressively. Soon after September 11, he repeatedly made public his disdain for the Geneva convention. Complaints about the United States' treatment of prisoners, Rumsfeld said, in early 2002, amounted to "isolated pockets of international hyperventilation".

One of Rumsfeld's goals was bureaucratic: to give the civilian leadership in the Pentagon, and not the CIA, the lead in fighting terrorism. Throughout the existence of the SAP, which eventually came to Abu Ghraib prison, a former senior intelligence official told me, "There was a periodic briefing to the National Security Council [NSC] giving updates on results, but not on the methods." Did the White House ask about the process? The former officer said that he believed that they did, and that "they got the answers".

By the time of Rumsfeld's meeting with Rice, his SAP was in its third year of snatching or strong-arming suspected terrorists and questioning them in secret prison facilities in Singapore, Thailand and Pakistan, among other sites. The White House was fighting terror with terror.

On December 18 2001, American operatives participated in what amounted to the kidnapping of two Egyptians, Ahmed Agiza and Muhammed al-Zery, who had sought asylum in Sweden. The Egyptians, believed by American intelligence to be linked to Islamic militant groups, were abruptly seized in the late afternoon and flown out of Sweden a few hours later on a US government-leased Gulfstream private jet to Cairo, where they underwent extensive and brutal interrogation. "Both were dirty," a former senior intelligence official, who has extensive knowledge of special-access programmes, told me, "but it was pretty blatant."

The seizure of Agiza and Zery attracted little attention outside of Sweden, despite repeated complaints by human-rights groups, until May 2004 when a Swedish television news magazine revealed that the Swedish government had cooperated after being assured that the exiles would not be tortured or otherwise harmed once they were sent to Egypt. Instead, according to a television report, entitled The Broken Promise, Agiza and Zery, in handcuffs and shackles, were driven to the airport by Swedish and, according to one witness, American agents and turned over at plane-side to a group of Americans wearing plain clothes whose faces were concealed. Once in Egypt, Agiza and Zery have reported through Swedish diplomats, family members and attorneys, that they were subjected to repeated torture by electrical shocks distributed by electrodes that were attached to the most sensitive parts of their bodies. Egyptian authorities eventually concluded, according to the documentary, that Zery had few ties to ongoing terrorism, and he was released from jail in October 2003, although he is still under surveillance. Agiza was acknowledged by his attorneys to have been a member of Egyptian Islamic Jihad, a terrorist group outlawed in Egypt, and also was once close to Ayman al-Zawahiri, who is outranked in al-Qaida only by Osama bin Laden. In April 2004, he was sentenced to 25 years in an Egyptian prison.



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This is an edited extract from Chain of Command: The Road from 9/11 to Abu Ghraib, by Seymour M Hersh.

Which of course the Defense department denies-
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/2004/nr20040910-1240.html
 
There is no such thing as scent free money. As long as the idea of ownership and individuality exists, then personal gain will always rule supreme.

As to the speaking and the stick, it should be applied on a case by case basis. Sometimes the show of force instills fear. Other times, fear is generated by keeping the enemy guessing and staying ever vigilant.
 
If the US (Bush really) werent so quick to use force the Muslim world wouldnt be viewing them as brutish capitalists trying to gain wealth or as Christian's on another crusade to destroy the Islamic way of life.

I would say more, but you guys cover all the bases multiple times.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
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