Stances
- Thread starter Reaper
- Start date
*The REAL Devil*
First time out of the vault
What is stance 
Saint_Proverbius
Vault Senior Citizen
It didn't add much depth to Fallout Tactics, why would it add depth to Fallout 3?
For Devil, it was the ability to change stance i.e crouching, standing, lying down.
It added a little more depth to combat, which was pretty unrealist in the firt two games. You basically stood there and blasted away until you won the fight.
THe stances allowed stealth (crawling under windows) and the ability to improve accuracy. All of these help add a few more decision to combat on top of 'targetted shot or burst mode or puch or kick'
I loved the original games but I liked the extra combat options in Fallout Tactics, like being able to change stance. Not a huge touch but for peope who liked it, it would mean a lot to see it in Fallout 3.
It added a little more depth to combat, which was pretty unrealist in the firt two games. You basically stood there and blasted away until you won the fight.
THe stances allowed stealth (crawling under windows) and the ability to improve accuracy. All of these help add a few more decision to combat on top of 'targetted shot or burst mode or puch or kick'
I loved the original games but I liked the extra combat options in Fallout Tactics, like being able to change stance. Not a huge touch but for peope who liked it, it would mean a lot to see it in Fallout 3.
The stance options WERE really nice. No matter how many times I played FO 1 & 2, it still seemed bizarre to just stand there and basically take whatever was coming for me. There's only one way to fight, and that's at 600 meters, in the back, while you're safely hidden behind some nice rocks. Forget this "honorable" stuff, I just want the clot dead! 
The stance mode for me added realisme to the game. In any real combat situation where your engadged with the enemy, you use operational tactics to fight and win, being able to do things from kneel and dropping to the prone position when the enemy open fire, to crawling through shit for long periods of time just to get close enough to throw a grenade on an enemy posistion. The stance mode, little as it was, greatly enhanced the tectical side of the fire fights and game play.
I remember from playing tactics, in one instance there were people on a balconie fireing on my troops, the fact that they were able to use the stance mode after each shot to take cover made it more difficult for me to take them out, i had to rely on the stance mode to crawl my way from cover to cover across the map just to get near them. It vastly improved the game play. Maybe a lot of people dont agree with this, but i would be highly dissapointed if this feature was removed in a FO3
I remember from playing tactics, in one instance there were people on a balconie fireing on my troops, the fact that they were able to use the stance mode after each shot to take cover made it more difficult for me to take them out, i had to rely on the stance mode to crawl my way from cover to cover across the map just to get near them. It vastly improved the game play. Maybe a lot of people dont agree with this, but i would be highly dissapointed if this feature was removed in a FO3
Saint_Proverbius
Vault Senior Citizen
Sheesh.. Must I even reply to this?
And standing up in the middle of a fight, or sitting down/crouching in the middle of one, etc. is more realistic?
All those change stance things did in Fallout Tactics was give the enemy more time to shoot you. If you crouch behind a wall for cover, you're basically asking for the enemy to give you a free shot in the head when you stand up, because that's the reality of how that worked in Fallout Tactics.
Let's take an example of you standing behind a wall, decide to crouch, than stand back up again. Without any perks, standing to crouching is 2AP. Crouching to standing is 2AP. That's a total of 4AP you've just spent changing stances. 4AP is a common number in Fallout because that's quite often how long it takes the enemy to fire a weapo. Congratulations, you've just given the enemy one free shot at you! Hooray for realistic looking combat!
Except that it takes you a lot long to crawl in to the open than it does to run in to the open, which boils down to more time you're getting shot while you're not shooting back. If you're crouched or laying down, and more enemies pop up, you're utterly screwed because it also takes more time to crawl away or stand up and run away than it does to simply run away.
Which I've already mentioned amount to the enemy putting one extra bullet in to you than you've put in to him. Bravo.
Except when they see you, and pummel you with bullets, and you don't have a chance to get away because you're a sitting duck there on the ground.
Allowing the enemy to put more bullets in to you and greatly decreasing your mobility is not enhanced tactics. It's just a matter of giving people who don't understand the mechanics of the game free frags.
Hah.. hahaha.. HAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA
No, the fact is that while they were changing stance, your guys were popping them and they were too busy in the stance changing animations to fire back.
Which, if you were playing someone decent, would have left you getting shot to death while trying to slowly crawl to cover.
And you making excessive use of it vastly improved the enemy's score.
It's not a small feature. It's actually pretty tricky to impliment, and impliment well. Fallout Tactics certainly didn't impliment it well, and it still took them a while to impliment it because it's many frames of animation to render and sync up with the flow of time in APs, code to handle it, conditions to alter chances to hit, and so on.
Reaper said:
And standing up in the middle of a fight, or sitting down/crouching in the middle of one, etc. is more realistic?
All those change stance things did in Fallout Tactics was give the enemy more time to shoot you. If you crouch behind a wall for cover, you're basically asking for the enemy to give you a free shot in the head when you stand up, because that's the reality of how that worked in Fallout Tactics.
Let's take an example of you standing behind a wall, decide to crouch, than stand back up again. Without any perks, standing to crouching is 2AP. Crouching to standing is 2AP. That's a total of 4AP you've just spent changing stances. 4AP is a common number in Fallout because that's quite often how long it takes the enemy to fire a weapo. Congratulations, you've just given the enemy one free shot at you! Hooray for realistic looking combat!
Except that it takes you a lot long to crawl in to the open than it does to run in to the open, which boils down to more time you're getting shot while you're not shooting back. If you're crouched or laying down, and more enemies pop up, you're utterly screwed because it also takes more time to crawl away or stand up and run away than it does to simply run away.
Which I've already mentioned amount to the enemy putting one extra bullet in to you than you've put in to him. Bravo.
Except when they see you, and pummel you with bullets, and you don't have a chance to get away because you're a sitting duck there on the ground.
Allowing the enemy to put more bullets in to you and greatly decreasing your mobility is not enhanced tactics. It's just a matter of giving people who don't understand the mechanics of the game free frags.
Hah.. hahaha.. HAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA
No, the fact is that while they were changing stance, your guys were popping them and they were too busy in the stance changing animations to fire back.
Which, if you were playing someone decent, would have left you getting shot to death while trying to slowly crawl to cover.
And you making excessive use of it vastly improved the enemy's score.
It's not a small feature. It's actually pretty tricky to impliment, and impliment well. Fallout Tactics certainly didn't impliment it well, and it still took them a while to impliment it because it's many frames of animation to render and sync up with the flow of time in APs, code to handle it, conditions to alter chances to hit, and so on.
axelgreese
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Abstraction, CAN YOU DIG IT?
Nice post Saint.
Nice post Saint.
Hey Saint? What's the first thing they teach you when you're getting shot at? HUG THE DIRT, MAKE IT YOUR FRIEND. That is always going to be one aspect of FOT that is superior to the previous FO games, even with all the attendant problems and inconsistencies. My idea of cover is not standing behind trees that don't actually block the view, a la Fallout 1 & 2. Hell, I won't be happy until I get a stinkin' entrenching tool in the game to boot.
axelgreese
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I/O Error said:Hell, I won't be happy until I get a stinkin' entrenching tool in the game to boot.
umm what the fuck?
Entrenching tool = fancy word for shovel = personally I prefer making myself a nice hole in the ground when bullets are in the air. Come on man, I thought it was pretty clear. 
Yes, I was joking. Of course you can't realistically have that in a turn based game like Fallout that doesn't have set piece battles, but I was just helping to illustrate my point that standing up and firing at people like it's the Old West is NOT something that makes any sense. At least the stance option would be some improvement.
Yes, I was joking. Of course you can't realistically have that in a turn based game like Fallout that doesn't have set piece battles, but I was just helping to illustrate my point that standing up and firing at people like it's the Old West is NOT something that makes any sense. At least the stance option would be some improvement.axelgreese
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I/O Error said:Entrenching tool = fancy word for shovel = personally I prefer making myself a nice hole in the ground when bullets are in the air. Come on man, I thought it was pretty clear.
I'm quite aware of what it is. Hence my response.
once agian. Abstraction. Learn it, live it, love it.
I/O Error said:Hey Saint? What's the first thing they teach you when you're getting shot at? HUG THE DIRT, MAKE IT YOUR FRIEND. That is always going to be one aspect of FOT that is superior to the previous FO games, even with all the attendant problems and inconsistencies. My idea of cover is not standing behind trees that don't actually block the view, a la Fallout 1 & 2. Hell, I won't be happy until I get a stinkin' entrenching tool in the game to boot.
Yet again, you display you don't get the idea from where Fallout's roots are from.
It's not a commando strike force team like Jagged Alliance, just to give a helpful hint.
Roots do not define the future of a game. To believe otherwise is folly. Game series ARE allowed to change. Whether that change is for good or ill is entirely a personal opinion. How many RPGs on the same basic Fallout concept are you looking forward to, anyway? There's only so many "save-Wasteland-from-terrible-evil-while-performing-side-quests-for-random-people" iterations they can go through.
At least FOT is better than that abomination coming out on console is shaping up to be...
At least FOT is better than that abomination coming out on console is shaping up to be...
I/O Error said:
To believe they don't define a game shows no clue of game design.
What makes the new game slated for release an abomination?
Therefore, the roots have defined the future of a game, in not following them.
No, it is more than a personal opinion, especially when it involves experience with working in game design.
That you fail to have the imagination to put that into perspective has answered it plainly enough.
You know what's funny? Someone else is going to end up parroting your clueless tripe for that game.
Oh? And I suppose you're waiting with baited breathe for the release of the apparently graphics heavy / content light Fallout deriative coming out on XBox and PS2, are you?
Sure you are. 
(And you know, I love it when people say they have "experience with game design". Got a portfolio I or others can peruse? Why are you modding a fan site, did your experience not translate to steady work?)
Sure you are.
(And you know, I love it when people say they have "experience with game design". Got a portfolio I or others can peruse? Why are you modding a fan site, did your experience not translate to steady work?)
Saint_Proverbius
Vault Senior Citizen
I/O Error said:Hey Saint? What's the first thing they teach you when you're getting shot at? HUG THE DIRT, MAKE IT YOUR FRIEND. That is always going to be one aspect of FOT that is superior to the previous FO games, even with all the attendant problems and inconsistencies. My idea of cover is not standing behind trees that don't actually block the view, a la Fallout 1 & 2. Hell, I won't be happy until I get a stinkin' entrenching tool in the game to boot.
Hey I/O Error? What's the first thing they teach you in math class? TWO PLUS TWO EQUALS FOUR. That's what's going on in Fallout Tactics when you go from standing to prone, you're wasting four action points while the enemy is using that same amount of time putting bullets in your ignorant ass.