Stat building elements do not make a game an RPG

[The Dutch Ghost]

Sorry for the rant but I was just reading through a topic about Borderlands when it was brought up that the game was an RPG?

Exactly when does the game become an RPG?

The only reason why I think people call it an RPG is because you need to level up in order to gain better health, unlock and upgrade skills and be able to use higher class weapons.

Such a mechanism is indeed similar to mechanisms in RPGs but that doesn't make what is clearly a FPS an RPG.

This is only the latest example of this type of mistake and its rather annoying because when you bring up this explanation some people will immediately tell you that it is an RPG because the developers said so themselves.

Its frustrating that not only gamers but also designers become confused on what an RPG exactly details.

Under games I define as an RPG I have at least the following understanding;

-You are able to somewhat connect to the character or characters, sometimes more than in other cases, being a sort of representation of the player in the game world.
Sometimes some prior knowledge is involved and sometimes the character is as ignorant of the world as the player is when he or she is starting the game for the first time, acting on knowledge we have from the real world to deal with situations.

-You are able to talk to other characters.
Sometimes your skills are limited because you have not 'trained' them very well of you lack certain information/knowledge in order to give a better or different answer.
By 'learning' this information these options become available to you.

-You are able to solve some problems and situations in more than one way.
In most occasions its just talking or fighting, but sometimes you can use skills like for example stealth, or knowledge in certain fields to resolve a problem, opening a new alternative path.


Perhaps my view is a bit simplistic or I haven't got it exactly right but I would love to hear from other people on it.

 

[Pablosdog]

I think, in order for a game to be considered an rpg, these factors have to be included. There's also the differences between linearity and non-linearity.

To me these are key for at least a successful rpg(A definite one as well.) To constitute as a pure rpg, one would also need to include these:

Stat building(Yes, not wholly pivotal, but still, without this, you don't have your foundation)

Choice and Consequence( important)

Some form of Pnp mechanics or pnp-like mechanics.(Like S.P.E.C.I.A.L)

Expansive Npc interaction, or rather, any form of Npc Interaction whatsoever

Turn based combat(Debatable)

Can it still BE an rpg if it includes real time elements?(if these real time elements are in some way, influenced by a turn based system, or have some elements of a turn based system.) Then you would consider it an action rpg, but I would classify it as still an rpg nonetheless.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

There's plenty of RT RPGs. TB is not a requirement.

As for the initial argument, I can only say "duh". Many games have stat-building of some sort, so it definitely cannot be used solely to define RPG.

I have not heard of anyone calling Borderlands an RPG. It's more like a Diablo clone in FP. (And no let's not get into an argument whether Diablo is an RPG or not, it really isn't).

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

As for the initial argument, I can only say "duh". Many games have stat-building of some sort, so it definitely cannot be used solely to define RPG.

I wasn't really making an argument, more venting my frustration.

And yes, I have seen several posts in which Borderlands is called 'an RPG'.

 

[Pablosdog]

These are probably the same people who classify fallout 3 as game of the year, no?

 

[Dragula]

I don't think stats make an RPG, a lot of the PNP-varieties ditch stats completely.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

These are probably the same people who classify fallout 3 as game of the year, no?

Very likely, yes.
I usually don't investigate their tastes that much, their favorite game is usually what is popular and given the highest ratings.

I don't think stats make an RPG, a lot of the PNP-varieties ditch stats completely.

Well I am not familiar with all of them, only a handful that use this sort of system.

 

[x'il]

My two cents:

From many discussions i've seen about it i've come to the conclusion that: a cRPG is an intrinsecal, underlying game mechanics built upon the principle of "character skill > player skill", as well as a logically consistant (with itself), persistant game world. That's it. Everything else follows from there.

So Borderlands, definately not and RPG. As well as many of so-called RPG's of late.

 

[lisac2k]

I'm not sure you want me to write several pages about my view what could be considered a RPG and what couldn't...

But I can confirm it: Borderlands definitely doesn't scream RPG to me.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

I'm not sure you want me to write several pages about my view what could be considered a RPG and what couldn't...

But I can confirm it: Borderlands definitely doesn't scream RPG to me.

I just wanted to ask what the general view of people is regarding what makes an RPG.
No need for pages of text.

 

[TheGM]

Borderlands is a awful exiample.

Use Bio Shock. They billed it's standard by more life and crap from a vending machine as RPG elements.

and before somebody says Who....EVERYBODY THATS WHO!

 

[Ausdoerrt]

And yes, I have seen several posts in which Borderlands is called 'an RPG'.

Well, I guess I have learned to ignore the statements from the people who called VATS a turn-based system.

Also, anyone calling Borderlands an RPG would also call Diablo an RPG; those people don't but SHOULD then call Devil may cry or X-men Origins an RPG as well.

IMO there's two ways to identify an RPG. One is a narrow one, to claim that cRPG is a game that transfers PnP to a PC. After all, that was the original goal of many early WRPGs.

A broad one would be seeing it as a sort of hybrid of many things. There aren't really any elements that are exclusive to RPG games and haven't been used in other titles. You usually have an overarching linear story, side-quests, dialogue interaction and c&c system, and some sort of combat. Neither of these sound RPG-exclusive, nor are they well-defined.

One could argue, I guess, that what makes RPG RPG is the c&c system that affects not only minor details in the game or chara development, but also the main storyline (i.e. nonlinear games). This type of approach would identify STALKER as an RPG, but not NWN or even BGII. IMO, a nice way to put it, but controversial. One could argue that best cRPG SHOULD be nonlinear to stay true to the origins, but it's doubtful that they all ARE.

 

[Lexx]

I also hate it that every shooter who now has some kind of inventory system or "stat leveling" is automatically a rpg. Damn, now every shit is a rpg. And people even believe in this and they say "I never like rpgs, but game xy is cool and so I now like rpgs too" and shit like that.

 

[Verd1234]

Good discussion going on in this topic but what about JRPG games?

I think this Wikipedia article is decent enough on this topic..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_differences_in_role-playing_video_games

So, people in this topic think that RPG games should have certain characteristics to be called RPG's. That's fine but remember that not all RPG games are of Western Origin, you don't want to forget those Eastern or Asian(Mostly Japanese) role playing games...

One could argue, I guess, that what makes RPG RPG is the c&c system that affects not only minor details in the game or chara development,

But Final Fantasy 6,7,9(pick your favorite) didn't have that!

-You are able to somewhat connect to the character or characters, sometimes more than in other cases, being a sort of representation of the player in the game world.
Sometimes some prior knowledge is involved and sometimes the character is as ignorant of the world as the player is when he or she is starting the game for the first time, acting on knowledge we have from the real world to deal with situations.

-You are able to talk to other characters.
Sometimes your skills are limited because you have not 'trained' them very well of you lack certain information/knowledge in order to give a better or different answer.
By 'learning' this information these options become available to you.

-You are able to solve some problems and situations in more than one way.
In most occasions its just talking or fighting, but sometimes you can use skills like for example stealth, or knowledge in certain fields to resolve a problem, opening a new alternative path.

See? This is what I am talking about. I think people who predominantly play Western RPG's have a certain idea of what makes an RPG. That's fine but many times these lists seem to exclude the other culture's RPG games...just like the post I quoted did...

yeah, and JRPG fans do this also.... go to any Chrono Trigger fansite on the web or a Final Fantasy fansite and ask what makes a RPG....I am sure they will come up with criteria that either excludes Fallout 1 or they may deem it a bad RPG

Example: LOL Fallout doesnt have romance or epic villian IT FAILS
LOL Fallout has shit storry lloloolol

I mean, we look at those comments and think "These guys are clueless" but the truth is that the RPG genre consists of SO MANY different things that many lists are just going to ignore many of the RPG's out there....

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Personally I see games such as Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross (which I liked BTW) more as action/adventure games with stat building elements rather than RPGs.

You are more guiding the characters along the path rather than 'being' the characters.

It doesn't make them bad, but not RPGs like I understand them.

 

[Arr0nax]

I would just resume a RPG very concisely, because the shorter it is the easier it is to remember for dumbs or dummies.

A RPG is a game where you play the role of someone else. As such, the RPG centers itself about what being a thinking being is about :
- Interacting with other characters, and social groups, through language. I'm not saying talking here. The difference is not slight : interacting means the dialogue induce changes in both actors. It's not meaningless words just to fill the fucking game.
- Freedom of making choices that modify your destiny. The more you feel that your destiny changes, and the more consequences you can provoke, the more a RPG is succesful as such.

 

[Arr0nax]

See? This is what I am talking about. I think people who predominantly play Western RPG's have a certain idea of what makes an RPG. That's fine but many times these lists seem to exclude the other culture's RPG games...just like the post I quoted did...

Wait wait wait. RPG is not just three meaningless letters. It's three words. Occidental words, and these words have an history here that defined their meaning.

The history comes from pen and paper RPGs, and these clearly define themselve more-or-less like we said : Freedom of choice over character's destiny, Social interactions where you are the actor.

So, I don't speak Japanese, I don't know how their games are called in their language, and I don't know who the hell crafted the "jRPG" expression to translate it. But I'm 100% sure it is not adapted, and these are just adventure/action game with strong focus on storytelling.
These games surely don't fit the history of the term "Role playing game". I'd prefer "Role enduring game" or REG.

 

[Dragula]

Borderlands is a awful exiample.

Use Bio Shock. They billed it's standard by more life and crap from a vending machine as RPG elements.

and before somebody says Who....EVERYBODY THATS WHO!

I call BS. I have never met anyone that claims Bioshock is an RPG.

 

[Verevoof]

The only reason why I think people call it an RPG is because you need to level up in order to gain better health, unlock and upgrade skills and be able to use higher class weapons.

This is what an RPG is commonly thought of today. Sad, but true.

It also seems to be the popular thing to tag onto a game is "RPG elements." If you want an RPG, get an RPG (although good RPGs seem to be a dieing breed), but I wouldn't expect a full RPG experience with just "elements." It's kind of like wanting a BLT vs wanting BLT elements: with just "elements" you get the lettuce and tomato, which is certainly not a BLT.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

One could argue, I guess, that what makes RPG RPG is the c&c system that affects not only minor details in the game or chara development,

But Final Fantasy 6,7,9(pick your favorite) didn't have that!

As I said, merely a classification suggestion. I identified that specific flaw of it as well. As The Dutch Ghost said, one could easily redefine ARPG as action/adventure, and JRPG as adventure. There can be a reasonable argument that JRPG is a bad case of mislabeling, since they do not carry most characteristics (by Western Standards) that an RPG should have. Heck, they call Ys series "action RPG", even though the games play no different from Capcom action titles. It seems like for Japanese, an RPG is any game, preferrably in a fantasy setting, where you run around and kill stuff with a sword.

Also, if you wish to throw Japanese titles in, what about SLG? SLG/"strategy" (as in games that are built around TB combat) hybrids? Should those be considered RPG? They certainly resemble one a lot more by Western standards than JRPGs do. I did not want to bring Eastern titles in, since that'd distract from the main argument.

I mean, we look at those comments and think "These guys are clueless" but the truth is that the RPG genre consists of SO MANY different things that many lists are just going to ignore many of the RPG's out there....

One problem with the article you posted is that it makes superficial observations, some comparison, but no conclusions. What do we make out of all of this? Also, I think it's mislabeled, because it shows very few cultural differences and many technical differences. It should either make more cultural distinctions, or suggest how exactly technical differences account for cultural ones. Otherwise, if culture plays a small role, one could simply label the two as completely different genres (which they are, more on this in a sec), the "culture" argument becomes invalid.

The article is also highly inaccurate, and makes broad assumptions. But I won't go into that.

Well, I like to think of it this way (for any classification, really):

1. The items in a group have to share a common characteristic.
2. The characteristic has to be unique to the group.
3. The "unique characteristic" has to be a key characteristic that defines the gaming process (somewhat shaky here).

Therefore, to fit in a group the game has to share the characteristic, and have it as a defining element of gameplay.

Let's use an easy one - racing games.

The group (1)defines games that are designed to simulate the process of racing in a vehicle as accurately as possible; (2) no other game genres attempt to do this, and (3) racing games have cars but not all games that have cars are racing games (e.g. UTIII is not a racing game because driving a vehicle does not fully define the gaming process).

RPGs are more difficult because they make use of many more elements, and it's difficult to pick one out that is both defining and unique. CnC comes as close as possible to that, IMO.

Problem with JRPGs, their defining elements are shared by what is known as "adventure games" in the West. They may be more heavy on the stat building side, but I think most fans today will agree that the defining element is the linear, long storyline. Therefore, WRPG and JRPG cannot be seen as subgroups of one whole "RPG" genre.

On this note, I also express my interest in how the term RPG came to Japan. It seems to be used in a completely different context than in the West, and as I've noted, there's very little similarity of genre. They seem to have had PnP, but the video games are largely unrelated to those. I wonder if the early NES JRPGs were actually marketed as/referred to as such at the time.