Stat building elements do not make a game an RPG

Dragula said:
TheGM said:
Borderlands is a awful exiample.

Use Bio Shock. They billed it's standard buy more life and crap from a vending machine as RPG elements.

and before somebody says Who....EVERYBODY THATS WHO!
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I call BS. I have never met anyone that claims Bioshock is an RPG.
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Yeah I am going to make this shit up....

Also read what I said again....ELEMENTS-AH!
 
Verd1234 said:
Good discussion going on in this topic but what about JRPG games?

I think this Wikipedia article is decent enough on this topic..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_differences_in_role-playing_video_games

So, people in this topic think that RPG games should have certain characteristics to be called RPG's. That's fine but remember that not all RPG games are of Western Origin, you don't want to forget those Eastern or Asian(Mostly Japanese) role playing games...
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JRPGs, despite their name, are actually not RPGs. Probably there are exceptions, but that's the rule of thumb.

Here's a definition of a roleplaying game:
A game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players have the freedom to improvise; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the game.
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Furthermore:
Hypothetically, a person watching the game looks over your shoulder and suggests a move, and your reply is "No, my character wouldn't do that." If this happens, or is capable of happening, then at some level you are playing a role-playing game. This simple distinction puts a world of difference between RPGs and other games.
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That is how I define a roleplaying game. Of course, virtually any CRPG will fall short of the ideal because of the difficulty of replicating PnP in a video game, but I think games like Fallout and Baldur's Gate are close enough.

The only thing wrong with this definition is that a "formal system of rules" isn't required in a video game in the sense of having an explicit ruleset like D&D.
 
failout said:
The only thing wrong with this definition is that a "formal system of rules" isn't required in a video game in the sense of having an explicit ruleset like D&D.
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A system of rules is implicit. A video game has one by default, because the designers have to make constraints when programming the thing. So in a sense the rule still holds.
 
Yes, but I mean something like D&D or SPECIAL.

STALKER has its rules too, like any other game, but they're "invisible."
 
IIRC SPECIAL was crafted specifically for Fallout. A game like Diablo (though not RPG) also has a specific set of rules that's pretty tangible, but doesn't come from a PnP module. In most games with RPG elements what you point out at those "elements" is usually the visible part of the rule set.
 
I don't mean that the rules have to come from PnP, I mean the rules are explicit and clearly laid out. There is no "rule system" in a game like Half-Life 2 the same way there is in BG II.
 
Then wouldn't that mean that an RPG, video game or otherwise, would in fact need such a rule system, in contrast to a non-RPG game like Half-life? I couldn't come up with a cRPG that doesn't have one.
 
I thought this might be somewhat related to the topic:

(from an article on Mass Effect 2's apparantly improved combat and thinning line between shooter and rpg)
You'll still pop out of the real-time combat to relay orders, activate abilities, and do all that nerdy RPG stuff, but the core shooting gameplay has been overhauled considerably.
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I sometimes wonder if people even know what RPG is short for.
 
Let's face it, the RPG is dead, or at best on life support. There hasn't been any pure RPG's out there. It's like the RPG genre had a couple sticks of dynamite shoved in it's non-existent orifices and was blown to pieces, and it's meaty bits are being devoured by other gaming genres. I'm getting real sick and tired of hearing "ooo look, it's got RPG elements!" If "RPG elements" are a selling point, then why not just make an RPG?! :crazy:
 
^ Cause then it's too difficult or complicated or too boring for the console players :lol:

But yeah, the fact that Dragon Age needed a patch to make it easier is /facepalm

I don't mind hybrids so much if they're done well. Games like STALKER that actually have strong roleplaying elements (as opposed to a skill system that somehow is supposed to make a game "RPG) are a lot of fun. Otherwise, I have been more partial to Japanese tactical SLG games and VN/RPG hybrids recently due to the lack of decent new RPGs to play.
 
Don't search too far. Bethesda did not kill the genre. MMORPG killed the genre. Bethesda is just answering the new clientele MMORPG created.
 
Ausdoerrt said:
^ Cause then it's too difficult or complicated or too boring for the console players :lol:

But yeah, the fact that Dragon Age needed a patch to make it easier is /facepalm

I don't mind hybrids so much if they're done well. Games like STALKER that actually have strong roleplaying elements (as opposed to a skill system that somehow is supposed to make a game "RPG) are a lot of fun. Otherwise, I have been more partial to Japanese tactical SLG games and VN/RPG hybrids recently due to the lack of decent new RPGs to play.
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I really don't mind hybrids either (Deus Ex is for example one of my all-time favorites), but the way the phrase "RPG elements" is thrown around is just ridiculous and pisses me off most of the time.

that said, what exactly are these RPG elements of STALKER? I loved that game, but I really can't see much of an RPG in it.
 
As soon as a game has a inventory, it has "rpg elements". As soon as you can talk to NPCs, it has "rpg elements" too. At least they say so. I wouldn't even disagree with that but still, today every game has somehow "rpg elements"...
 
aenemic said:
that said, what exactly are these RPG elements of STALKER? I loved that game, but I really can't see much of an RPG in it.
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Well, it doesn't have that many RPG elements in the sense that it's thrown around lately (as Lexx mentioned), although it does have an inventory blah blah

What I meant was the roleplaying elements that made you feel like you actually play the role of the Marked One (in the case of SoC) rather than just randomly run around shooting stuff. The game is also fairly free-roam, with a few important choices and consequences along the way. It features multiple endings partly based on behaviour during the game. Of course, none of this was on the same level as an RPG would have them, but that's why they're elements only. Also, the need to eat, and the initially removed but restored in mods need to rest was a nice touch. You were no longer an invincible juggernaut with the sole purpose to kill, but a humble stalker with a gun, not unlike others around you.
 
yeah ok, I can definitely agree with that.

I would've loved to see the developers original idea of how STALKER was supposed to be. I'm under the impression that it was supposed to be much more of a "real" rpg.
 
If I'm not mistaken, they release the open-source beta version of the "original" STALKER early this year - a working, playable version. With luck, you could probably still find it floating somewhere online. You may be able to find more info if you dig up the newspost about it on Oblivion-Lost.net
 
Well, this beta doesn't show much. Walking around in the big (but already separated) levels and shooting stuff. No Dialogues or Quests, etc. includet.
 
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