The end is very oily nigh, apparently...

I have to go with Wooz on this one. Just another conspiracy that wants to either get famous, get rich, or scare the shit out of people.

Secondly, Sander, you're avatar is freaking me out.
 
The fact that it was so gruesome, lasted so long (I mean no progress in battles whatsoever here), and that it was a WORLD war was very much because of industrialization. And WW2 was a more or less direct consequence of WW1, since Nazism (fine, Spain and Italy were less caused by indutrialism, but still) could prevail only thanks to the economical problems that occurred in Germany after defeat in WW1.
I know that the reason why it was so long and gruesome was industrialisation, but the war itself was not a consequence of industrialisation itself.
ANd then there's Nazism. Nazism is...annoying, because it has a lot of causes. But it wasn't caused by industrialisation, it was caused by a lot of things, and industrialisation only had a relatively minor part to play.

And you might be an exception, Sander, since your parents actually worked their way up the ladder. Most people don't manage that. But still better than before, I'll admit. Class-climbing still isn't an easy thing though, and the fact that it exists is wrong, and a little competitive. Although I guess someone has to do the dirty jobs.
You're wrong. I know TONS of people who have gone a similar way. REally, I do.

Isn't being poor and treated well better than being poor and treated poorly?
's the same as "money doesn't make people happy." WHat money does do, is make it easier to be happy. ;)

Society still has this competitive aspect. Go to a French or English highschool (espcially French) and you'll see what I mean. The "alpha-male" attitude still rests in our instinct.
I'm certainly not denying that. Never will deny it. ;)
But you have to admit that it's a recent development, and hasn't been around for that long, or at least not that predominantly.

And admit that oil is a stupid resource. In fact, using limited resources is stupid. I don't see why nobody thought of trying to find more durable resources before. Probably because of huge oil/car corporations not wanting to go bankrupt, and murdering/calling opponents hippies.
Oh, but people have been thinking about it ever since people started to see that the resources were not infinite. But indeed, companies are blocking the way to more durable resources. Although other companies are trying to create them for their own profit.

ON a similar note, my physics teacher made an incredibly stupid note on the subject. He said that fusion power could be gained from sea-water, if it were to be stable, and that those resources were nearly limitless. It's EXACTLY what people thought about oil. "Oh, we've got so much of it, we'll never use it all."Bah.

@PS and everyone thinking my new av is creepy: Goodie! It's doing what it's supposed to do. ;)
 
Sander said:
I'm certainly not denying that. Never will deny it. ;). But you have to admit that it's a recent development, and hasn't been around for that long, or at least not that predominantly.

I'm not sure it's so recent. It has only taken a more subtle form. First you had feudal lords openly fighting only to achieve suffering for their minions.

Then you had pennalism and elitism in school, as I was pointing out.

Now it has taken this economical turn all of a sudden, with Wall Street and all that, trying to compete to be the strongest, even though what you already have is more than enough. Puts a LOT of people on the streets. Sometimes people who are to blame for it themselves, but mostly innocent people who were fired due to a bad stock market decision about their company.

@PS and everyone thinking my new av is creepy: Goodie! It's doing what it's supposed to do. ;)

Reminds me of that eye-dude on TV in Dark Angel (ewwww.)
 
Wooz69 said:
Ozrat posted somewhere the contents of an assyrian (If I remember correctly) clay tablet, with similar "the end of the world is near" inscriptions. Dated 2800 BC.

We seem to forget that the Assyrian civilization eventually did collapse. :)
 
Now it has taken this economical turn all of a sudden, with Wall Street and all that, trying to compete to be the strongest, even though what you already have is more than enough. Puts a LOT of people on the streets. Sometimes people who are to blame for it themselves, but mostly innocent people who were fired due to a bad stock market decision about their company.
I'm extremely interested to hear your reasons as to why you feel this is true. So far this line of thinking seems to be based on a flawed perception as to the function of markets and the effects of competion. Given that you reject modern economics, this is not surprising, but you still have to justify your opinions rather than just scapegoating something.
 
I'm not sure it's so recent. It has only taken a more subtle form. First you had feudal lords openly fighting only to achieve suffering for their minions.

Then you had pennalism and elitism in school, as I was pointing out.

Now it has taken this economical turn all of a sudden, with Wall Street and all that, trying to compete to be the strongest, even though what you already have is more than enough. Puts a LOT of people on the streets. Sometimes people who are to blame for it themselves, but mostly innocent people who were fired due to a bad stock market decision about their company.
The whole competition part of society was most certainly not so apparent and predominant in, for instance, Medieval Times (which is my main example). Which makes it rather recent.
It has, of course, always been there in politics and the like, but it hasn't always been there so predominantly in the general society.
 
Yes but now that it's there, it's probably one of the things that might bring Humanity's destruction. I'm just saying many societies today are riddled with greed, which is a shame. Like billionaires (sp?) that need to get richer. Take Bill Gates for instance. He has enough money to last twenty lifetimes, he won't ever be able to spend it all before he dies. He could, for example, eradicate famine and disease in many African countries. I just took Wall Street as an example, since it's very much like that too. I'm not greedy. I don't need LOTS of money, and a few millions would be enough for a lifetime, IMO.
 
Ok, you didn't answer my question.

In any case, let's take Bill Gates as an example. Where did he get the money from? Is it because he stole the biggest share of the ficticious global money pile away from anyone else, and has it sitting in stacks of cash at home and in gigantic bank accounts?? Wrong. Over 90% of his wealth is in ownership of Microsoft, which he created value in, and in turn employs a shitload of people around the world. Most of the price of those shares reflects future unrealised earnings discounted to present value. Wait, what is that you say? He won't be able to spend his money in his lifetime? Actually I think he will:
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/05/09/gates/

And because the Economist is so much better at putting things than me (and because it has a nasty habit of turning articles into premium content after a while), and because I'm such a lazy bastard, let me quote:
The Economist said:
A question of justice?

Mar 11th 2004
From The Economist print edition
The toll of global poverty is a scandal. But deploring economic “injustice” is no answer
HUNDREDS of millions of people in the world are forced to endure lives of abject poverty—poverty so acute that those fortunate enough to live in the United States, or Europe or the rich industrialised parts of Asia can scarcely comprehend its meaning. Surely there is no more commanding moral imperative for people in the West than to urge each other, and their governments, to bring relief to the world's poorest. And what a tragedy it is, therefore, that many of the kind souls who respond most eagerly to this imperative bring to the issue an analytical mindset that is almost wholly counterproductive. They are quite right, these champions of the world's poor, that poverty in an age of plenty is shameful and disgusting. But they are quite wrong to suppose, as so many of them do, that the rich enjoy their privileges at the expense of the poor—that poverty, in other words, is inseparable from a system, capitalism, that thrives on injustice. This way of thinking is not just false. It entrenches the very problem it purports to address.

Symptomatic of this mindset is the widespread and debilitating preoccupation with “global inequality”. Whenever the United Nations and its plethora of associated agencies opine about the scandal of world poverty, figures on inequality always pour forth. (Such figures, though, are always higher than the likely reality: see article) It is not bad enough, apparently, that enormous numbers of people have to subsist on less than a dollar a day. The claim that this makes in its own right on the compassion of the West for its fellow men is deemed, apparently, too puny. The real scandal, it seems, is that much of the world is vastly richer than that. The implication, and often enough the explicit claim, is that the one follows from the other: if only we in the West weren't so rich, so greedy for resources, so driven by material ambition—such purblind delinquent capitalists—the problem of global poverty would be half-way to being solved.

Equity at a price
Certain ideas about equality are woven into the fabric of the liberal state, and quite inseparable from it: first and foremost, equality before the law. But equality before the law, and some other kinds of liberal equality, can be universally granted without infringing anybody's rights. Economic equality cannot. A concern to level economic outcomes must express itself as policies that advance one group's interests at the expense of another's. This puts political and ethical limits on how far the drive for economic equality ought to go. (Strictly practical limits, as well, since too noble a determination to take from the rich to give to the poor will end up impoverishing everyone.) It also means that perfect economic equality should never be embraced, even implicitly, as an ideal. Perfect economic equality is a nightmare: nothing short of a totalitarian tyranny could ever hope to achieve it.

The preoccupation bordering on obsession with economic equality that one so often encounters at gatherings of anti-globalists, in the corridors of aid agencies and in socialist redoubts in backward parts of the world reflects a “lump of income” fallacy. This remarkably tenacious misconception is that there is only so much global income to go around. If the United States is consuming $10 trillion worth of goods and services each year, that is $10 trillion worth of goods and services that Africa cannot consume.

But goods and services are not just lying around waiting to be grabbed by the greediest or most muscular countries. Market economics is not a zero-sum game. America consumes $10 trillion worth of goods and services each year because it produces (not counting the current-account deficit of 5% or so of the total) $10 trillion of goods and services each year. Africa could produce and consume a lot more without America producing and consuming one jot less. It so happens that the case for more aid, provided of course that it is well spent, is strong—but the industrialised countries do not need to become any less rich before Africa can become a lot less poor. The wealth of the wealthy is not part of the problem.

To believe otherwise, however, is very much part of the problem. For much of the 20th century the developing countries were held back by an adapted socialist ideology that put global injustice, inequality and victimhood front and centre. Guided by this ideology, governments relied on planning, state monopolies, punitive taxes, grandiose programmes of public spending, and all the other apparatus of applied economic justice. They also repudiated liberal international trade, because the terms of global commerce were deemed exploitative and unfair. Concessions (that is, permission to retain trade barriers) were sought and granted in successive negotiating rounds of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade. A kind of equity was thus deemed to have been achieved. The only drawback was that the countries stayed poor.

Towards the end of the century, many developing countries—China and India among them—finally threw off this victim's mantle and began to embrace wicked capitalism, both in the way they organised their domestic economies and in their approach to international trade. All of a sudden, they are a lot less poor, and it hasn't cost the West a cent. In Africa, too, minds are now changing, but far more slowly. Perhaps that has something to do with the chorus that goes up from Africa's supposed friends in the West, telling the region that its plight is all the fault of global inequality, “unfair trade” and an intrinsically unjust market system.

Heed the call
People and their governments in the West should heed the call of compassion, and respond with policies to help the world's poor, and indeed to advance the opportunities of the (much less desperately) poor in their own countries. Expressed that way, the egalitarian impulse is a good thing, worth nurturing. But a compassionate regard for the poor, as any good Marxist will tell you, is a very different thing from a zeal for economic “justice”. That zeal, despite the exemplary fate of the socialist experiment at the end of the 20th century, guides a great deal of thinking still. And it continues to do nothing but harm.
 
Yes but now that it's there, it's probably one of the things that might bring Humanity's destruction. I'm just saying many societies today are riddled with greed, which is a shame. Like billionaires (sp?) that need to get richer. Take Bill Gates for instance. He has enough money to last twenty lifetimes, he won't ever be able to spend it all before he dies. He could, for example, eradicate famine and disease in many African countries. I just took Wall Street as an example, since it's very much like that too. I'm not greedy. I don't need LOTS of money, and a few millions would be enough for a lifetime, IMO.
Ehh....Bill Gates is the probably the one person in the entire world giving the most money to charity. Bad example there, Baboon.

Plus, greed leads to a lot of things, but it will not lead to a destruction of society. It can lead to a significant change in society, though.
 
Well, well, ok, I didn't know about that particualr story but take any other evil corporate rich guy.

And greed will probably lead to a society that would be better off just being destroyed.
 
Childishly and stirring what remains of a heart in me...yes I agree Baboon. In fact, my simian friend, its worse than that. We kill (or are willing to) over pieces of green paper.
 
Nice article Revolver.

But you are missing something that connects back to oil.

Most of the developing countries of the world are natural resource or commodity exporters. If you look at a developing country's use of labor you will probably find a large percentage is dedicated to subsistance agriculture- great in that it feeds them, bad because commercial agriculture (despite all the evil additive) is more economically efficient.

Ok, but that's only a portion. The rest of the population is either employed by the state and at a waste of revenue (often borrowed) doing very little, or is involved in export, through which international capital is derived.

Exports in most developing countries is built around a handful of commodities. In some countries, like Congo, it's a lot of commodities, but generally these are either planted and harvested or pulled out of the ground.

On it's own that's not bad. Congo for instance exported just a little below what all South America managed during Congo's colonial period.

However, the problem is trade inequality. Primary commodities (coffee, sugar, coco, cobalt, uranium, oil) have not kept up with the cost of manufactured goods and services over time. So the developing countries suffer declining returns of trade.

In developed states with strong market economies, significant capital can be grown domestically. Markets create capital by adding value. But there is little value to add to primary products, the raw material of industrial products. So the ability of these countries to earn capital has declined over the past 30 years, making it harder for them to industrialize over the long term.
 
While I see your point in countering the article's sneering at the 'unfair trade' protests, my use of the article was mainly to stop Baboon's scapegoating of capitalism as the cause of the world's problems.

My knowledge in this area is only superficial, so forgive me if this is wrong- but it seems like many Congo's more successful reforms had to do with privatisation of state run companies. Also, your comments highlighted the need for foreign capital or direct investment. From what I've read, part of the reason for the lack of foreign investment for anything besides oil projects is due to the driving up of costs by a highly inflexible labor market. Again, I'm not trying to refute your point, but to try to show that while it's not a perfect system, the absence of a competitive system will not make things better for them or anyone else.
 
Revolver said:
While I see your point in countering the article's sneering at the 'unfair trade' protests, my use of the article was mainly to stop Baboon's scapegoating of capitalism as the cause of the world's problems.

My knowledge in this area is only superficial, so forgive me if this is wrong- but it seems like many Congo's more successful reforms had to do with privatisation of state run companies. Also, your comments highlighted the need for foreign capital or direct investment. From what I've read, part of the reason for the lack of foreign investment for anything besides oil projects is due to the driving up of costs by a highly inflexible labor market. Again, I'm not trying to refute your point, but to try to show that while it's not a perfect system, the absence of a competitive system will not make things better for them or anyone else.

Nor would I say that capitalism is the cause of all the world's problems. Fact is that the prosperity of the world owes itself to capitalism more than any other system. Why, because capitalism takes advantage of the self-interest and greed of individuals and aggregates that for the benefit of all. The problem is, of course, that capitalism rewards winners and punishes losers and we live in a world of inequality. For example classical economic generally rewards the notion of contract as an agreement in which both parties benefit, but in reality that there are parties that come to the table with so little power and ability that these are actually contracts of adhesion- there is no bargaining power with which to draw benefit.

However, capitalism requires markets and markets require governments and thus the problem. Unrestrained capitalism is potentially dangerous because the market doesn't alway reward or care about such issues as the externalities of agreements or the other areas of social interaction which are not tied to "markets". In many areas it is the state that provides goods, both private and public, that make markets work. Yet the state is also an economic actor.

So your point about privatizing market firms, the process of privatization has come with mixed results. Many states have been criticized by selling firms that provide substantial pubic goods at discount prices. Other firms have been basically dissolved and replaced by outside firms that monopolize and export capital. In other cases, especially Eastern Europe, many members of the state got the privilege to buy parts of privatized state enterprises and became a new bourgeosie class, but basically held on to power.

One argument against the state is that the more state intervention the more rent-seeking behavior occurs. One also sees more corruption and cronyism. Yes and no. Not all rent seeking is bad (nor is all cronyism). Furthermore, in those states that have done the best in globalization- be they they US or Europe or Singapore, one sees an awful lot of state interaction with business.

Why? well it goes back to the nature of the state and the market. This borrows a bit from Peter Evans and from Mancur Olson- great article in APSR 1992 or 1993 if you like I can give you the reference. States and their rulers (or the coercive apparatus of government and those that govern) can try to maximize the private capital of members of society and extract through revenue to build more institutionalized states through which to rule. Ideally this happens through the creation of national states that govern capitalist economies in the Weberian tradition.

States are not absent but actually are very active in the development of economies, building markets, funding R&D, dealing with labor, moving capital, overseeing markets, etc. In these systems the state plays a very key role in the management of the capitalist economy. Most of Europe, America and parts of Asia have this, countries in Latin America and the rest of the world, less so.

Problem here is that some of these states also can pick up authoritarian rulers, or oligarachs that are more interested in staying in power than building their countries. In this case one could easily slip into the category below-

States and rulers can privatize wealth in their personal capacities, use the state as an instrument of theft and don't care about the future. This fellows know that sooner or later chances are someone is going to depose them through revolution, coup de'tat or other nastiness. They are patrimonial leaders, ruling through patron-client ties and using state enterprises as a means to be rich.

Tilly wrote a wonderful article, "State making and War making as organized Crime" in Skocpol, ed. Bringing the State Back In, that tells the medieval story. A more modern story could be told by looking at Mobutu in Congo or Suharto in Indonesia.

So yes, in Congo, privatizing state enterprises- as a means of divorcing them from the predations of the state and ruler, is probably a wise way to go. But alone that won't work.

But to think that the state shouldn't intervene in the market is also not quite correct. Korea's Chaebols and Japan's Zaibatsu would not exist without market interference or regulation. Japan's rapid success from World War 2 in the 1980s can be credited, in part to MITI's influence.

The question is not whether the state should intervene in the market- rather it should how should the state intervene and what should the state do.
 
Yeah I know gas and fossil fuels will eventually run out unless we stop using them, but I'm not worried much, since the U.S. has planned for this. We have enough reserves to last us awhile, to get along barely, at least, until we can make a transition to something like hydrogen which a car using hydrogen has already been developed, I think, just not mass manufactured or further tests need to be done or something. Meh, I'm not worried, we can always go back to horses or just plain old walking if it gets real bad. Life will go on.
 
It would be curious if we could "turn back" to an older form of energy if we should run out of fuel.

However, I think you are right to say that some of the interest in things like fuel cells and hybrid cars is part of the response to declines in fossil fuels.

Problem was that we were dealing with this in the 70s during the oil embargos, but because oil got so cheap, other means of energy couldn't effectively complete.
 
FOr those interested in oil and politics- I was listening to this on NPR last night. Might be interesting-

ON the relationship of Oil and Politics- or why all Texas Politicians work for oil check out the conversation with Richard Bryce on Texas, the US susper state.

Remarkable ties between the Bush family, Baker, and the oil industry. Is this healthy for the US?
http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml;jsessionid=K4YFNL1EYZ2CJLA5AINSFFI?todayDate=current

you might also want to check WIth Good Reason on the role of the price of oil in US foreign policy.
http://www.withgoodreasonradio.org/current.html
 
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