The obligatory Vista thread

[Morbus]

Ah an old story, seems a bit silly. The OS is indeed pretty stable, although I still can't use my printer/scanner thing, for lack of drivers, but there's one thing that makes it slow as a snail: Windows Live One care. Too much resources, not enough control by the user, failed to pass a bunch of anti-virus tests, a real failure.

WOW man! Then Vista sucks even harder than I thought!

 

[Dracon M'Alkir]

Short version: Don't touch Vista until Service Pack 1 or later.

Long version:

This operating system simply isn't needed. There's nothing new or innovative in Vista - at all. All of it is just rehashes of features that other operating systems have been using for years. Their networking stack was stolen from OpenBSD to produce Win2k, and now they started all over again. Security is a mess, and the user interface is annoying. I'm a Windows XP power user, which means that I can get to any facet of my operating system within seconds of the thought appearing in my head. Vista's new 'revolutionary' layout forces all of us powerusers (and I'm sure there are quite a few on the boards as we got Fallout to work on XP) to re-learn the interface entirely. Furthermore, the Windows user control system is annoying as fuck. You try to do anything, it asks for conformation. Would you like to move this icon? Yes. Would you like to copy this file? Yes. Would you like to open this folder? Yes. Would you like to install this deadly virus? Yes. Oh fuck, what did I just do?

You then go ahead and disable the user control interface that they "added for security" and then once you actually DO install some kind of deadly virus onto your computer with no functioning anti-virus for Vista yet - Microsoft's like - well that's YOUR fault because you're the one that disabled it, you dumb shit!

OPENGL is COMPLETELY GONE from the operating system.
I tried to run Quake 2, "OpenGL API not found". Quake 3, same thing. They basically broke all of ID Software's games.

There's also a ton of extra 'goodies' added in Windows Vista that I haven't even discovered yet.

The bottom line: Vista's worthless.

That's the end of my rant.

 

[Briosafreak]

OPENGL is COMPLETELY GONE from the operating system.

Try to install the latest drivers for your graphic card, it fixes things, and you'll get decent frame rates. Not as good as XP, though.

 

[Maphusio]

Sooo... After reading this thread I'm not sure what all the doomsday sayers are talking about when it comes to Vista being all buggy and not able to run any games even with 1gig of ram...

Allot of you folks need to quit making up stories and base your assumptions with some facts.

I'm running Vista Ultimate 32 on a Prescott 2.8GHZ CPU with 1 Gig of 3400 DDR Samsung RAM. -ATi X1600 512mb RAM

Do I see a HUGE performance hit in these video games that I "can't run"? No, I do not, do video games not work? The ones I have tested work fine so far. HL2, Lineage2, Age Of Empires 3, Age Of Mythology Titans, Diablo2, Rise Of Nations, and yes EVEN Fallout2 runs JUST fine on WINDOWS VISTA!... With the small exception that the cinematic movies do not display properly, that did not happen with the same set up on XP-Pro.

So really guys, let's get real here. Windows Vista is NOT WindowsME. Nor is it this ridiculous resource hog that so many have claimed to to be.

At my place of work we created a PC running Vista Home Premium, 512mb DDR and we used the 32 meg on board video... Vista ran just fine, customers that used the rig did not complain of waiting all day for windows to load. They did not tear up and worry about the fact that Vista is inherently more secure than XP-Pro. They enjoyed using the operating system just as much as any other. Granted it could not run Arrow glass like my rig; but, it still chugged away at the web just as well as it would with XP.

So, in short, lose the bull shit. Bill and his empire are making countless millions like the rest of Washington state's global super power commercial, industrial and agricultural industries.

...That's what yu get for dickn' around. lol

UPDATE: After closing Fallou2 and starting it again the oddities (color issues) that I did see with the cinematic have gone away.

 

[Dracon M'Alkir]

Sooo... After reading this thread I'm not sure what all the doomsday sayers are talking about when it comes to Vista being all buggy and not able to run any games even with 1gig of ram...

Allot of you folks need to quit making up stories and base your assumptions with some facts.

I'm running Vista Ultimate 32 on a Prescott 2.8GHZ CPU with 1 Gig of 3400 DDR Samsung RAM. -ATi X1600 512mb RAM

Do I see a HUGE performance hit in these video games that I "can't run"? No, I do not, do video games not work? The ones I have tested work fine so far. HL2, Lineage2, Age Of Empires 3, Age Of Mythology Titans, Diablo2, Rise Of Nations, and yes EVEN Fallout2 runs JUST fine on WINDOWS VISTA!... With the small exception that the cinematic movies do not display properly, that did not happen with the same set up on XP-Pro.

So really guys, let's get real here. Windows Vista is NOT WindowsME. Nor is it this ridiculous resource hog that so many have claimed to to be.

At my place of work we created a PC running Vista Home Premium, 512mb DDR and we used the 32 meg on board video... Vista ran just fine, customers that used the rig did not complain of waiting all day for windows to load. They did not tear up and worry about the fact that Vista is inherently more secure than XP-Pro. They enjoyed using the operating system just as much as any other. Granted it could not run Arrow glass like my rig; but, it still chugged away at the web just as well as it would with XP.

So, in short, lose the bull shit. Bill and his empire are making countless millions like the rest of Washington state's global super power commercial, industrial and agricultural industries.

...That's what yu get for dickn' around. lol

UPDATE: After closing Fallou2 and starting it again the oddities (color issues) that I did see with the cinematic have gone away.

All I can say is good on ya, that everything is working as you would have expected. Needless to say, you can't speak for the rest of us when it comes to our woes with Windows Vista. You can't have identical hardware setups to us, nor can you emulate our problems without using our specific hardware combinations. As for me, I'm not touching Vista for quite a while, and I actually applaud you for picking it up and installing it on your system. It takes an enormous alot of courage to risk your freedom, your credibility, and identity.

You make the rest of the world better for us.

I salute you.

 

[SkynetV4]

Vista is not that bad. Granted they moved around things too much but it's not a bad OS, the ME comparison is really not fair. Some games will run like ass but that was expected. You still need to remember that Microshaft no longer passes from Beta to Retail. They just release the Beta as retail . Silliness aside, there are QUITE a few things that piss me off. DRM has been shoved down our throats, OpenGL is gone. There a lot of good things however for us techies: Network connections will now explicitly tell you what's wrong with your network (at least it will tell you, if it's your problem or a problem with the OS), the OS now includes memory diagnostics. , you can now repartition the HD within the OS, you can encrypt your data and make it so that it only boots if you insert a USB key, security has been improved so that Blaster-type virii are now virtually impossible to run because of User Account Control. Basically, ANYTHING you install needs to be okayed by the admin, so spyware will have a tough time to install on your system, it has VERY good backup capabilities (so you basically now have partition magic and norton ghost features on the OS).Give it some time, it still needs to have a some bugs ironed out. During my training, for some reason, the laptop I was working on started blue screening and rebooting.

 

[Maphusio]

Oh brother Dark... Is it up to Microsoft to ask all hardware vendors to create drivers that function with Vista? No, its not and many of them consider Vista their excuse for not supporting hardware thats a few years old. nVidia is a good example of that.

PEOPLE OPEN GL WORKS FINE WITH VISTA!

Just install the drivers for your graphics acceleration card that are from the card manufacturer. This has been said in this thread before.

Dark my primary gripe is many in this thread (including yourself) are making huge assumptions and generalizations about this OS. Don't assume something is broken until you have done your research. Do you SERIOUSLY think Microsoft would create an OS that did not support OPEN GL?

So "In Short" please think about what you say here. Please research it as well. And more importantly if you are going to defend your position here... Back it with some facts not just experiences you may have had in Beta 2 and DON'T patronize me. (;

 

[Dracon M'Alkir]

Oh brother Dark... Is it up to Microsoft to ask all hardware vendors to create drivers that function with Vista? No, its not and many of them consider Vista their excuse for not supporting hardware thats a few years old. nVidia is a good example of that.

PEOPLE OPEN GL WORKS FINE WITH VISTA!

Just install the drivers for your graphics acceleration card that are from the card manufacturer. This has been said in this thread before.

Dark my primary gripe is many in this thread (including yourself) are making huge assumptions and generalizations about this OS. Don't assume something is broken until you have done your research. Do you SERIOUSLY think Microsoft would create an OS that did not support OPEN GL?

So "In Short" please think about what you say here. Please research it as well. And more importantly if you are going to defend your position here... Back it with some facts not just experiences you may have had in Beta 2 and DON'T patronize me. (;

PEOPLE OPEN GL WORKS FINE WITH VISTA!

Source:

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTMxOCw3LCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

Article: 30 days with Windows Vista
From: HardOCP

Intro:

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTMxOCwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

Conclusions:

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTMxOCw5LCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

Windows SmartStart and ReadyBoost were non-starters as I couldn't see any performance improvement related to RAM utilization or general usage.

The vaunted new security features of Windows seem to be a good start, but I have my doubts that they'll actually keep the computer secure because it does not require a password. Furthermore, the repeated prompts actually start to work against the user due to their incredibly annoying nature.


I ran into a few problems with peripherals. Specifically, my iPod, scanner, and printer flat-out wouldn't work. My DVD burner technically worked in 32-bit Vista, but Vista uses a new file system on burned CDs and DVD which prevents them from being used in even Windows XP computers. There's a mode that is supposed to make these discs compatible, but it didn’t work for us. We find this to be a severe limitation, as moving data around on optical discs between different operating systems now becomes virtually impossible.

I found no general performance benefits compared to Windows XP, and, in fact, the system ran noticeably slower on the year-old Whakataruna. Turning off Aero did not help, and both Windows Media Player and Windows Media Center were sluggish in playing full screen video while third party freeware applications showed no such sluggishness.

On two separate computers I had major stability problems which resulted in loss of data. This is an unforgivable sin.

Additionally, Vista claims backwards compatibility, but I've had major and minor problems alike with many of my games, more than a few third-party applications, my peripherals, and, in short, I encountered problems that actively prevented me from getting my work done.

Burning optical discs is a very flawed process, and I could never make a data DVD on 32-bit Vista that would work on a non-Vista system. Many of these programs did work better under 64-bit Windows Vista, but there were still stability problems in that version of the OS.

Furthermore, in exchange for that lack of stability, there is little advantage for any user to upgrade to Windows Vista, and the few advantages we noted - a new (not necessarily better) UI, a better Windows Movie Maker, and some security improvements (however errant), currently don’t seem to be worth the trouble.

The Bottom Line


It's a lemon.


Now, I like Microsoft as a company. They've put together impressive products and they can do some amazing things. I believe that while they've done both good and ill, the karmic scales of the company weigh more towards the good. I might get personally frustrated with their products and disapprove of certain business decisions, but I also believe that without Microsoft providing a de facto standard for operating systems on the desktop, it would have been harder to achieve the broad information age that we have today. Windows XP Service Pack 2 is a very good operating system because it is stable, works with most hardware, and is easy to use.


I say this to impart that this is not a thoughtless slam or heedless rant against Microsoft, which can often be an inviting target.


Based on my personal experiences with Vista over a 30 day period, I found it to be a dangerously unstable operating system, which has caused me to lose data. The 64-bit version is slightly better (which, frankly, surprised the hell out of us and makes us wonder if Microsoft didn't make a mistake in choosing to only distribute Home Premium 32-bit in the retail channel), but it still has stability problems.

Any consideration of the fine details comes in second to that one inescapable conclusion. This is an unstable operating system.


When Microsoft moved from the DOS to the NT based architecture for its consumer products, they did so primarily because users were tired of operating systems that had poor stability. The move from Windows 98 to 2000 brought that stability to the masses. Now, users are tired of operating systems with poor security, and in an attempt to bring that security to them, Microsoft has undermined the operating system's stability and overall utility.


I can see what Microsoft was trying to do, but it may be that keeping Windows backwards compatible and making it more secure, all while trying to keep the OS stable may be an impossible task. I don't know if Vista will be improved with the next service pack, but the problems I found seem to stem not from flaws in code, but flaws in design.


I don't want to give into hyperbole, but at the end of the 30 days, I begged Managing Editor Jason Wall to let me reformat my computer and stop testing.


I really did want to like Vista. Yes, it is possible to enjoy both Windows and Linux - but unfortunately this product is unfit for any user. I still intend to keep a Windows XP partition on my computer for gaming and some multimedia editing, but as of the time of this publication, I have removed Vista entirely.

"Bugs can be fixed, but shitty design is forever." -DirtyDreamDesigner

 

[SkynetV4]

If I could give you guys access to our internal Windows Vista knowledge base and you saw how many compatibility issues this OS has....you guys would never buy this OS, it's pretty in theory if you run it controlled conditions (like on Dell's OS testing lab) but when you take it out and put in the hands of lusers and not so lusers, it really begins to show the cracks on it's design. Why is it that Linux with the Beryl window manager doesn't have such sluggishness? Is this really a gaming platform?

Iin less-than-stellar hardware configs, the OS requires you to turn off so many features that you basically end up with XP with a few minor changes. Microsoft should have explained that to the great masses of the unwashed; now every fuckhead who bought a Dell a few years ago, suddenly wants to install Vista. I mean, they'll go as far as getting the 2 GB of RAM that are pretty much standard if you want the OS to run smoothly, paying premium prices for dated hardware, only to find out that they can't upgrade even if our website says that they should be able to. Sometimes Vista just doesn't like your hardware and keeps asking for spurious BIOS updates and other weird solutions. A typical case is the one that a female tech (yes they exist, and this one is really hot) received via email. The POS Windows Media Player, locks up randomly while playing files. Files that work properly on Winamp or on Windows XP. Shitty design is indeed forever...I see it daily on my inbox.

 

[Bisonman80]

its an evolution of windows, and that's all you can really say about it. Definitely not revolutionary, but its Microsoft, what can ye expect?

So far i've been able to do all the things i did on XP, and haven't noticed any notable differences in performance. Some of the additions I highly enjoy, and actually miss when I use the XP computers at school. For example, the audio mixer (gives you independent volume controls for every application currently running), the instant searches, just a bunch of little things that make it overall nicer to use. I've been able to get all the drivers needed for my hardware, and my printer works the same as it always did.

Maybe I'm just a lucky one, but i can't say anything bad about Vista that didn't also exist in XP, so...

should you buy it? No. Should you avoid it? No

oh and btw, I'm running on 1 GB ram, an AMD 64 2800, and a geforce 6200. like i said, it runs efficiently, and due to the 'super fetching' or whatever that 'ram hogger' does, general use on the desktop seems even smoother than it was in XP. So to anybody suggesting that you NEED 2 GB to run it decently, i call bullshit on you.

 

[SkynetV4]

oh and btw, I'm running on 1 GB ram, an AMD 64 2800, and a geforce 6200. like i said, it runs efficiently, and due to the 'super fetching' or whatever that 'ram hogger' does, general use on the desktop seems even smoother than it was in XP. So to anybody suggesting that you NEED 2 GB to run it decently, i call bullshit on you.

Bullshit? You have a rig that includes a dedicated graphics solution. Your situation does not reflect that of the majority of the users out there. I can tell you from my experience as a tech working for one of the main PC manufacturers in the world, that Joe User, out there, doesn't buy a machine close to your specs. Joe User out there typically buys 512 MB of RAM, integrated video and as cheap a processor as they can buy. 2 GB are not required if you want to install Vista with Aero enabled but if you don't have a dedicated graphics card you WILL see severe slowdowns.

It would be interesting if a benchmarking website would test Aero with the three mainstream integrated video chipset manufacturers. I'm expecting Nvidia and ATI passing with flying colors and Intel to shit itself. Not even with the Core 2 Duo, have they released a decent integrated graphics chipset. This situation will change when AMD and Intel start releasing integrated graphics included on the CPU http://www.theregister.com/2007/03/28/intel_nehalem_deets/ .

 

[Maphusio]

In reply to Dark Legacy...

First of all, I'm not sure why you have three links to the same article and the same section of it.

That was an interesting article; However, this does not prove your point it actually proves mine.

No where in this article does it say OPEN GL is broken and useless in Windows Vista.

It does mention the stealing from MAC thing... Well, that I agree with but hey... It's Microsoft, what do you expect?

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1176125

This is the community response to this article. Take note of all the folks like myself whom are using vista and have had little to no problems.

I have recently installed Vista Ultimate 64 on my newest machine
AMD Athelon 64 X2 3800+
MZN-SLI DELUXE
7900 GS (Nvidia may lie about their frame rates when ATi pwns them with their latest and greatest, but hey... I got the hook up holla if u hear me)
1GB RAM

I have installed and so far have had no problems with the following games...
Fallout 1-2
Steam - Counter Strike Source / Condition Zero / Half Life2
Dialbo2
AOM:Titans
AOE
ROL
RON
Star Craft:Brood War
Oblivion
Soldier Of FortuneII

The only game I have had troubles with so far is Farcry (even after upgrading to the 64bit version) it will not run in anything other than software mode.

I find it amusing that this article calls the OS a "lemon". Despite the fact it will be the only OS to run DX10 (what a crock of shit but oh well).

Below I have linked several articles (out of numerous) that are similar to your article. You may notice one thing in common... They all believed XP had its problems as well.

http://www.techspot.com/articles/winxp_firstlook/winxp-4.shtml

http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000001049,39163261,00.htm

http://www.windowsnetworking.com/articles_tutorials/Dark-Side-Windows-XP-SP2.html

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,599410,00.asp

My point is this... Every new operating system has its critics and its supporters. You valiantly support WINXP over Vista despite the obvious improvements in Vista. Many people did the same when XP came out. Many people were the staunchest advocates of Windows ME. Google that for a good laugh.

Bottom line is anyone whom thinks XP is the successor to Vista may not be very well informed or had a bad experience with Vista themselves.

You have stated flat out that,

"OPENGL is COMPLETELY GONE from the operating system."

Anyone whom has half a brain would understand that is an absolutely ludicrous statement.

As for the doomsday machine that will one day swallow the earth, SkynetV4 and his (or her) experience with folks attempting to install Vista on their old Dell... Well, I guess they will learn from their mistakes. It's too bad that Dell will not learn from theirs if they are implying folks can run Vista on a given machine that can not. Seeming that Dell tends to use the lowest common denominator of parts for their products I'm not surprised at the frequency of people experiencing difficulties.

BTW if that hot computer technician is asian, give her my number... *shrugs* so I've got a thing for them.

In conclusion.

Does Windows Vista at the moment pwn XP Pro in relation to its frame rates? Not really. Will it? As drivers improve and as Microsoft works the kinks out you can certainly bet it will destroy XP Pro. Let us not even mention DirectX10.

Does XP pwn Vista when it comes to stability? Thats arguable, but what does one expect from an OS strait from the great NW? Do you expect it to be finished without any issues? Posh, we're going to need more coffee shops to pull that off.

 

[SuAside]

goddamn it... just spent 2 hours troubleshooting shit for people i know on Vista. i hate it already.

it is to be noted however that the problem wasnt solely from Vista but also from a cheapass junk router. let that be a lesson though: contact your techy friends BEFORE you buy something, rather than buying something & finding out it doesnt work. it'll save you some pain.

*oooooh isp promotion of the month! wireless router for 50 euros! wooohooo!* *BUY! BUY! BUY! BUY! BUY!* = a big no-no

anyway, this is my first real run in with troubleshooting in vista, and i bloody hate it. dozens of ways to reach the same menu, yet you have to go through 100000 menus and links to get where you want to be. auto config stuff that doesnt work, protection software that only gets in the way of troubleshooting, etc etc etc.

 

[Stag]

My only anger towards vista was in the fact that Splinter Cell Double Agent does not seem to understand that DirectX10 does indeed fall under the category of "DirectX9.0c or higher".

I really love the search features. For instance, instead of having 50 or whatever icons cluttering my desktop for all the apps I run regularly, I just hit the start button, type their name, and hit enter.