The statue of liberty and its symbolic use in movies

[Ugly John]

Norway does, sweden, the place Miro comes from... etc..

 

[John Uskglass]

Finland has mandatory military service.

Maybe Turkey as well.

 

[Wooz]

Dunno why, but this remids me of the debate we had on Slavic gods, where you denied the existence of a Slavic wargod even when i showed you all the evidence there was one.

The US? More liberal than Poland? "Socialism being in its nature restrictive"? You know, you'd do much better on basing your points on real-life arguments instead of theories deducted only by reading books. For the record, I lived a year in Sacramento, California.

Pfft. "we don't have a LePen". Let me laugh at this. AFAIK there is something as the American Nazi Party.

 

[John Uskglass]

Dunno why, but this remids me of the debate we had on Slavic gods, where you denied the existence of a Slavic wargod even when i showed you all the evidence there was one.

Edward Rutherford is a better historian then some Polish Nazis, mmmkay?

The US? More liberal than Poland? "Socialism being in its nature restrictive"? You know, you'd do much better on basing your points on real-life arguments instead of theories deducted only by reading books. For the record, I lived a year in Sacramento, California.

Ever arrested? Ever learn what habeus corpus is? Have that in Europe, do you?

Socialism IS restrictive. Try and start a corporation there. It's almost impossible. Look at the working laws in France.

Pfft. "we don't have a LePen". Let me laugh at this. AFAIK there is something as the American Nazi Party.

No, nowhere near the Vichy or LePen. IT says something about you're understanding of American Politics that you actually think the American Nazi party ever managed to do anything in the US, while LePen got 17% of the vote, and the BNP are among the fastest growing parties in Great Britan.

 

[Wooz]

Again, you're missing my point. You're tuning this into a "look, my country's best" debate.

I'm telling you US citizens have been losing many civil rights over the past years, and it's going downhill.

Wanna argue about that, or discuss the origin of a website, the election rates of the FN compared to the Ku Klux Klan impact on American society, the fact that the Miranda rights have been abolished and "remaining silent" is classified as collaboration?

And for the record, I've been arrested three times.

 

[Big T]

...the BNP are among the fastest growing parties in Great Britan.

You're making this sound much worse than it is.
As far as I can tell, the only reason the BNP is gaining in popularity is that some people are looking for a tough stance on immigration after all the scaremongering that the Tories have done on that issue. I seriously dount that many of their voters fully agree with the party's stance.

Plus, by the very nature of the US's two party system all the other parties are going to be insignificant, it's not quite that pronounced over here.

 

[quietfanatic]

American scientists and defense are still arguing about whether tactical nukes are feasible even after some dodgy interference by Bush. I find the fact that this is even being considered by the government quite disturbing (it was on the news last week here).

 

[John Uskglass]

American scientists and defense are still arguing about whether tactical nukes are feasible even after some dodgy interference by Bush. I find the fact that this is even being considered by the government quite disturbing (it was on the news last week here).

Then you don't understand tactical nukes. They tend to not be as diry, have a very small (comparitively) radius of destruction, and they've been around sense Vietnam but never been used.

People seem to be forgetting that America has been waging one of the first wars in human history where a government has spent billions extra to protect the lives of civilians from attack with smart bombs and extremely rigourous training for urban warfare. The American Army is, oddly enough, the most humane fighting force I can think of.....ever.

 

[quietfanatic]

They are still too dangerous and 'dirty' for use and cannot achieve their bunker busting aim. As to the claim that "All the radioacivity will stay in the crater" they must be insane. Even if it did, it would contaminate ground water and damage the environment and peoples health for a long time to come. They might have been interested in this technology for a long time, but the fact that people in positions of pwer want to step it up more and make it available for widespread use is disgraceful. Agent Orange was used with good intentions as a clean and safe tool, and the use of nuclear devices for what I believe to be trivial tasks would likewise be a terrible mistake.

Don't you see something wrong with this potential practise?

 

[Llama-God]

CCR is terrible at debate, you should know that, Wooz.

 

[John Uskglass]

They are still too dangerous and 'dirty' for use and cannot achieve their bunker busting aim. As to the claim that "All the radioacivity will stay in the crater" they must be insane. Even if it did, it would contaminate ground water and damage the environment and peoples health for a long time to come. They might have been interested in this technology for a long time, but the fact that people in positions of pwer want to step it up more and make it available for widespread use is disgraceful. Agent Orange was used with good intentions as a clean and safe tool, and the use of nuclear devices for what I believe to be trivial tasks would likewise be a terrible mistake.

Yep, they can. It is very dangerous. But it's effective.

Now, frankly, I don't see the purpose of using it in the present conflict. And yes, I see what is wrong with it. But it's not the end of the world, and it's not gonna happen because we did'nt even do it in Vietnam, when it could have been useful.

CCR is terrible at debate, you should know that, Wooz.

You're the one inventing crap out of the blue, thinking Wikipedia is a rescource for a serious debate (and not even writing anything yourself, just quoting Wikipedia) and thinking that the Vikings reached China with a Longboat.

Again, you're missing my point. You're tuning this into a "look, my country's best" debate.

You don't have a moral base to critsize US policy.

I'm telling you US citizens have been losing many civil rights over the past years, and it's going downhill.

Did it go down hill? Yes. Was there a reason? Is 300 million people who want NYC to be converted into cinders in seconds a reason good enough? Will it end? Will Islamofascim end? That's the question.

This is not some systematic attack on democracy for no reason. That's what you can't understand. This is a response against an enemy more insane and devout then any ever fought before. And it will end when Islamofascism goes the way of Communism.

Wanna argue about that, or discuss the origin of a website, the election rates of the FN compared to the Ku Klux Klan impact on American society, the fact that the Miranda rights have been abolished and "remaining silent" is classified as collaboration?

That's a good point, actually. But then again, the KKK never formed a government during Nazi occupation. It's not a dificult one to answer.

And the KKK is totally miniscule at this date and time, while the FN is generaly rising in power.

When did the Miranda rights go away?

And for the record, I've been arrested three times.

Forgive the assumption, but I assume at a rally?

Compare the two, if you can. In America, where you clubbed, where there hoses? Where there rubber bullets?

Now, America certainly has a history of this at diffirent points, but generally treatment of prisoners/activists is better then South America and Europe.

You're making this sound much worse than it is.
As far as I can tell, the only reason the BNP is gaining in popularity is that some people are looking for a tough stance on immigration after all the scaremongering that the Tories have done on that issue. I seriously dount that many of their voters fully agree with the party's stance.

Yep, I am, I'll admit. But I still find it fairly scary, as you probably do. And the last problem America had with that kind of stuff was Dixiecrats.

 

[Paladin Solo]

CCR is terrible at debate, you should know that, Wooz.

Actually, I found him pretty good at debates, and I've heard people on this forum say so many times.

 

[quietfanatic]

Of course only using the evidence that suits your argument might make you good at debates. Forgetting inconvenient viewpionts might not be good for reaching a more balanced world view however.

I also sincerely hope that CCR's 'Islamofacsism' will burn it's self out but am more pessimistic and do not know how the threat of fundamentalists will ever go away if the same conditions remain. It is likely that the positive impact of measures to stop extremism will be balanced by the conflict which needs to occur that incites more hatred of the US and Western culture. It is a no win situation but we have to keep trying to solve the problem or think of new possibilities.

 

[Ozrat]

CCR is terrible at debate, you should know that, Wooz.

Actually, I found him pretty good at debates, and I've heard people on this forum say so many times.

He's good to have in debates because he can present a conservative viewpoint fairly well. He really isn't that good at actually debating those issues though.

You don't have a moral base to critsize US policy.

Actually, he does. Being from another country with anti-capitalist ideals and not being a Christian does not invalidate his points against US policy. You know better than that.

But that wasn't his point either.

Again, you're missing my point. You're tuning this into a "look, my country's best" debate.

He was pointing out that your method of debating here is mostly trying to compare US aspects to extreme negative ones that can be found in other countries. Shouldn't we as Americans strive to be the best we can be without falling onto those extreme examples as an exuse for not improving?

 

[John Uskglass]

Actually, he does. Being from another country with anti-capitalist ideals and not being a Christian does not invalidate his points against US policy. You know better than that.

Lach Walesa (sp?) would disagree with you there. Poland is capitalist, and it's human rights record (even post-wall) is not that of America.

He was pointing out that your method of debating here is mostly trying to compare US aspects to extreme negative ones that can be found in other countries. Shouldn't we as Americans strive to be the best we can be without falling onto those extreme examples as an exuse for not improving?

You are right here. But, IMHO, we are still better then any nation in Europe (save maybe the Dutch, arguably) in terms of freedom and some other aspects, or having a milirty that is quite civilized and effective at avoiding unnessicary casualties.

He's good to have in debates because he can present a conservative viewpoint fairly well. He really isn't that good at actually debating those issues though.

Yep. Then again, I'm half the age of most of you.

Of course only using the evidence that suits your argument might make you good at debates. Forgetting inconvenient viewpionts might not be good for reaching a more balanced world view however.

I don't really know how you reached that conclusion. I don't have a particularly balanced world view, certainly, but then again, having a balanced world view leads to a lack of action......it's moral reltivivism.

I also sincerely hope that CCR's 'Islamofacsism' will burn it's self out but am more pessimistic and do not know how the threat of fundamentalists will ever go away if the same conditions remain. It is likely that the positive impact of measures to stop extremism will be balanced by the conflict which needs to occur that incites more hatred of the US and Western culture. It is a no win situation but we have to keep trying to solve the problem or think of new possibilities.

Read Avishai Margalit and that dutch guy who I like but the Dutchies don't's Occidentalism, and Bernard Lewis. It can be done, and it's not as hard as some people think.

 

[Ozrat]

Lach Walesa (sp?) would disagree with you there. Poland is capitalist, and it's human rights record (even post-wall) is not that of America.

So? Wooz has nothing to do with whatever "human right record" of Poland you are finger-pointing at. Hell, he wasn't even born in Poland. He's lived in Mexico and France before moving to Poland. But then again, you already knew that....

Now let me ask you this: What does Wooz's current living address have to do with his "moral base"? And what does this irrelevant "moral base" have to do with his valid points against faulty US policies? That's right; nothing.

You are right here. But, IMHO, we are still better then any nation in Europe (save maybe the Dutch, arguably) in terms of freedom and some other aspects, or having a milirty that is quite civilized and effective at avoiding unnessicary casualties.

Funny. I've always thought that counties that don't go to war would be "avoiding unneccesary casualties" more than those that do engage in combat.

Yep. Then again, I'm half the age of most of you.

Actually you are probably the average age of most people here at NMA and I highly doubt that you are any more than 4 years younger than the average age of the political debators here.

 

[quietfanatic]

How old is CCR?

 

[Ozrat]

16 last I heard, but that's not really the issue here. Let's try to stay on topic, eh?

 

[Johns Volition]

That so much remainds me at this southpark episode:
There was a group of pro war people, and a group against war, who made demonstrations etc... they where fighting about it all over, but in the end, they just figured out, that it doesn't matter since they lived in a country, which allows all people to express their opinion freely, but nobody in charge ever listens to it. (loved that episode)

 

[Loxley]

Haha "socialism is restrictive" hahaha. Really i have not noticed that, Yea we are restrictive against rich people so they don`t have a too easy time exploiting their workers polluting the enveieroment ect ect.