THE UN- What Future?

THE UN should be-

  • Dissolved as its become meaningless

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Strengthened- more binding and autonomous power

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Weakened- It's already too damn strong

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Reformed- the security council should expand for new members

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    210
Well actually I can't agree with that either. Again, this is a question of what do you mean by taxation as well as what are the potential for a country to tax.

There have been a lot of rich authoritarians that proved successful to tax. Many of the poorer countries can't tax because taxation requires an administrive infrastructure that they just can't afford. Its not surprising that the IRS in the US is one of the most extensive agencies in the US. More agents work for the IRS than the CIA and FBI!

Note Saudi Arabia and Yemen. While the Saudi's taxed the oil industry for money, the Yemeni's relied on income taxes. But the Yemeni's also had a nasty government for a very long time. The history of Europe illustrates many cases where imperial powers empowered themsevles, and impoverished their people, through excessive taxes. While taxes matter, they areno the only thing that matters.

NOW CC, I know you tend to fly off in a rage on these threads, but please, lets not get nasty here.

Whille I don't want any more Hitler's I don't think subverting the UN to an ideology alone is a good idea. I support democracy and human rights, but I also support peace and communication as well, and believe that the UN has an important role in bringing countries that are not alike together.

If one were to subvert an institution like the UN to one prevailing ideology than we would have a bigger problem than back in the 1970s and 1980s, where many countries were advocating socialist/communist causes through the UN, but now the UN would be moved by those ideologies. Likewise if a large share of the world became Islamic extremists, I would not want an organization like the UN used to expand that ideological reach.

I have serious doubts that countries are especially vulnerable to external pressures. In a few cases, yes. But generally its domestic change that allows for countries to move from dictatorship to democracy.

In that sense lets not forget that when the Security Council was created the US took great pains to include the Soviets- regardless of their different ideology. That two sides- of the Cold War were able to discuss their differences through the UN and that the UN still helped to keep the peace is a good reason why the UN still has an important role to play.
 
You are right welsh.
When I was thinking of Taxation I was thinking primarily of the American Revolution, the Estate system in France and Saudi Arabia.

Also, I was not being angry with Hitler and Mahandas Ghandi comment, oddly enough. I just think that nations with a good human rights record should be empowerd over those who do not.
 
But that gets us back to the problem of whose standards for human rights. Back during the Cold War the US and its allies had different ideas of human rights than the Soviets and their allies.
 
Okay. If a country silences dissidents by
A)Rape
B)Castration
C)Execution
D) Dissapperaing
E) making them allies of the Great Satan
or do not allow a degree of freedom of speech, then they should not be allowed on to the UN Security council.

Also welsh, do you think it is a good idea to be fuckbuddies with China while India is in a cold war with them?
 
Well CC- lets take a case of white cops and black suspects in New York and you got anal sodomy- does that count?

You got cops shooting a black suspect 40 times- that seems like an execution.

Castration, disappearances, executions- I am willing to bet if you looked for them long enough you could find them in the US.

I know if you look for them historically, you'll find them.

Remember the ideals of human rights, the concept that nations are bound to enforce human rights, is a fairly recent phenomena- owed in large part to the horrors of world war 2. But here you are talking about modern nations, with industrialized economies that are also some of the early democratizers.

SHould this be the standard, of course. IS it?

Well applying these standards you can cut out many countries of Eastern Europe, most of Latin America, most of Africa, most of the middle east.

If you keep countries out of the UN just because they have a crappy human rights record, you are going to be leaving a lot of countries out.

As for the Chinese- don't get me started on them. But it's not because of the Indians. Actually I am pissed off that the Indians tested the bomb for nationalist reasons and are still in Kashmir. But the China policy is so tied to special interests its digusting. But consider too, that cheap products from China keep inflation down. Also don't forget the Chinese buy a lot of American Treasury Bills with their trade surplus.

The world is more complicated than the "good guys" v. "bad guys" we'd like it to be.
 
WERgyui lol thi hrdceardcre hardcore wwzat s sooo eet ads fukk

anyway

didn't 'americans' sort of kill a bunch of natives and take slaves or something? sorry im not a historian

There is such things as good guys and bad guys. Guys on your side and guys that aren't?
 
So, a few isolated incedents make it impossible for the US to be a democracy and resepct human rights? Not bloody likely. Our official nor unofficial way of silencing dissidents is under none of the above, and true, some nations have spotty human rights records (Turkey, Russia), but should be included, but do you think that an 1,000 pound gorrila of authoritarian government should be allowed to vote on topics such as North Korea, Vietnam and such?
 
CC, I think yoiu're mising the point. THe point Welsh is trying to make, is that it is impossible in the modern world to say " They respect human rights, and they don't." WHy? Because of several reasons:
1) The most powerful country determines what human rights are(SImply because they ARE the standard), thus making the point obsolete for, for instance, the USA.
2) There are always borderline cases, and in those borderline cases, who determines who should be admitted?
3) Who is to say our determination of human rights is right?

NOw, let me say another thing, I think every country should be admitted. Why? Simple, democracy is what " the world" seems to want, then that is what they must get. THose countries are as much a part of the world as any other country.
NOw, if they want to pass law that violate human rights, or other things like that, how do you think they will ever pass it? They cannot ever get a majority, not with the influence the "civilized" countries have.
 
ConstinpatedCraprunner said:
So, a few isolated incedents make it impossible for the US to be a democracy and resepct human rights? Not bloody likely. Our official nor unofficial way of silencing dissidents is under none of the above, and true, some nations have spotty human rights records (Turkey, Russia), but should be included, but do you think that an 1,000 pound gorrila of authoritarian government should be allowed to vote on topics such as North Korea, Vietnam and such?

Absolutely- Consider that the one time that the US was able to mobilize the UN during the Cold War was the one time that the Russians weren't there- the Korean War. WHile I support the idea of what the Korean War was about, had that same war happened 20 years later (when both countries had nuclear arsenals) things might have turned out quite differently.

The idea behind the UN Security Council was basically to bring back the idea of the Concert of Europe of the 19th Century. During the approximately 50 years from Waterloo to the Crimean War, there was no major war between major powers- in part because the countries could come to the table of the Concert and work out their differences.

The world might not be what you want it to be, but it does set the stage in which state leaders and diplomats have to act. What you are suggesting is mMoving the UN from the idea of table that allows countries with different values and ideologies, led by different kinds of leaders, to meet to one in which only those countries with the right ideas can meet. That changes an institution like the UN from a global organization for peaceful settlements of disputes and cooperative responses to global problems, to an alliance.

But the UN is not an alliance. IN fact its structure allows for countries to form an alliance if they want. There was nothing in the UN that stopped NATO or the Warsaw Pact to form. But that's not what the UN is supposedly about. The United Nations is about allowing all countries, regardless of their differences, to meet and discuss.

So CC, what you are suggesting is getting rid of the one organization that does that (a more difficult thing to create), in lieu of alliances which are already allowable (and are relatively easier to make). Why not just make an alliance and leave the UN as it is?
 
Let me add one thing to Sander's point. Much of politics is local. It happens within 20 miles of where you live at any point.

If you are expecting countries to have human rights records and environmental standards and economic liberities like you would find in the developed West, your expectations are a bit high. Most of the countries of the world are fairly weak, peripheral players in the global economy. They don't have the money for the rights that you are expecting. It's a sad truth that its generally those countries that can afford democracy, human rights and environmental standards that actually have them.

If you doubt it, just look at the indexes from the UNDP on the human development index.

To expect every country to play the game might be expecting too much.

ALso don't forget, there are a lot of countries that look at the US policies on single sex partnerships, the death penalty, gun control (and no this is not a gun thread Gwydion), and social services as a poor standard on human rights (especially when we dump so much money in the military). One of the arguments that the Soviets used to keep their atheletes from teh 1984 games in LA was because of the high crime rates in the US.
 
update-

Ok, so this is a bit of grave digging but here's something that has come back-

Binding the colossus

Nov 20th 2003 | NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON, DC
From The Economist print edition

Can the United States ever work comfortably with international institutions? First, we consider the United Nations; next, the International Criminal Court

LONG before a bomb blew apart its headquarters in Iraq, the United Nations was deeply concerned about its role in the new terror-filled world. It remains the only body where the world's nations can take collective decisions. But to what extent can it, or should it, control how its members behave when they believe their security is threatened?

America's invasion of Iraq is the obvious test case. The United States claims that it did not invoke a right of pre-emptive self-defence in going to war, but acted both under Resolution 1441 and the “continuing authority” of a UN resolution mandating the use of force in the first Gulf war 12 years earlier. That is not how all the world sees it, not least because America has often made it clear that it will act on its own if it thinks it must.


Kofi Annan, the UN's secretary-general, believes that a perilous precedent has been set. “If...nations discount the legitimacy provided by the UN, and feel they can and must use force unilaterally and pre-emptively, the world will become even more dangerous,” he said in October. Such an approach, he had earlier told the General Assembly, could lead to “a proliferation of the unilateral and lawless use of force, with or without credible justification.” On the other hand, as a senior UN official admits, the only effective pre-emptive action at present is the unilateral kind.

The answer, Mr Annan believes, is to show that collective action can work just as well. But how? Mr Annan, realising that the UN has reached a “fork in the road” between continuing relevance and death, has recently announced the creation of a high-level panel to assess the present dangers and decide how the UN can respond, while keeping America on board.

Pre-emption is not specifically mentioned in the panel's brief, but it will inevitably be the focus of its discussions. Containment and traditional deterrence, relied on for the past half-century, are clearly no longer adequate to deal with the new world of terrorists armed with weapons of mass destruction. Should explicit doctrines of pre-emption or prevention replace them? And, if so, can they be carefully enough defined?

At present, the UN charter, drawn up with the horrors of the second world war still fresh, obliges member states to “refrain from the threat or use of force” and to settle their international disputes by peaceful means. Recourse to force is permitted in only two circumstances: under Article 51, allowing self-defence, or under the broad powers given to the UN Security Council “to decide what measures shall be taken...to maintain or restore international peace and security”, including use of force. This could in theory, and perhaps in practice, be extended to cover pre-emption.

The notion of pre-emption is, of course, not new. In his “On the Law of War and Peace”, published in 1625, Hugo Grotius, considered to be the father of international law, stated that it was lawful “to kill him who is preparing to kill”. A century later, Emmerich de Vattel declared in “The Law of Nations” that “A nation has the right to resist the injury another seeks to inflict upon it, and to use force against the aggressor. It may even anticipate the other's design.” But, he goes on, the pre-emptor must “be careful not to act upon vague and doubtful suspicions, lest it should run the risk of becoming itself the aggressor.”

The classic formulation of the right of pre-emptive attack was given in the mid-19th century by Daniel Webster, then America's secretary of state, over the Caroline incident. In 1837, British troops attacked an American ship, the Caroline, which was being used to ferry supplies to anti-British rebels in Canada. The vessel, at the time, was in American waters; American public opinion was outraged. The British claimed legitimate self-defence, but Webster argued later that anticipatory action was justified as self-defence only where “the necessity of that self-defence is instant, overwhelming, and leaving no choice of means and no moment for deliberation.” In addition, he said, the force used had to be proportionate to the threat. A third justification is now usually added—clear evidence of an intent to attack.

The UN has, in fact, been fiddling with the notion of pre-emption ever since its foundation. Article 51, in particular, has been subjected to much “creative re-interpretation” to allow the extension of the right of self-defence to cover an ever greater array of situations: retaliation against terrorist attacks; armed intervention to protect or rescue citizens living abroad; anticipatory action against an imminent and overwhelming armed attack; and “robust” humanitarian or peacekeeping operations. All this is in apparent breach of the UN's bedrock principle of national sovereignty. But it is understood that necessity demands it.

During the cold war, states sometimes resorted to pre-emptive force under the supposed cover of Article 51. Israel did so in the six-day war against Egypt and other Arab states in 1967. Both George Bush senior and Bill Clinton supported pre-emption in principle against Iraq and North Korea, if they showed signs of using their chemical or nuclear arsenals.

Now President George Bush junior, along with some others, wants to extend Article 51 to cover—as a last resort—strikes against dangerous regimes before they become imminent threats, and even without clear evidence of an intent to attack. “If we wait for threats to materialise,” he says, “we will have waited too long.”

Such a re-interpretation of Article 51 may not be as outlandish as it seems. Once a rogue state or terrorist group has acquired nuclear weapons, it becomes virtually impossible to contain. Furthermore, the threat of pre-emption could be seen, and used, as a form of deterrence. As the Bush administration's National Security Strategy puts it, “Our forces will be strong enough to dissuade potential adversaries from pursuing a military build-up in hopes of surpassing, or equalling, the power of the United States.” This new reality is one to which the UN is going to have to adapt.

The fight for seats
Few, however, want to see a world in which the strongest decide when and against whom to use unilateral pre-emptive force—tempting others to follow suit. An agreed set of guidelines is evidently needed. And the difficulty is not only how to set clear rules, but how to bolster the legitimacy of the body that enforces them.

The United States has long been tempted to see itself as the enforcer of the rules. As Strobe Talbott, a deputy secretary of state in the Clinton years, once said, “The sheer pre-eminence of American power could, in itself, be the ordering and taming principle of a disorderly and dangerous world.” This is not simply hubris: Americans have always tended to assume, rightly or wrongly, that what is good for them is also good for the rest of humanity.

They have also felt frustrated, most keenly in the case of Iraq, that the multi-voiced UN is so slow to move in the direction they desire. In his speech in London on November 19th, Mr Bush said both the credibility of the UN, and its relevance, depended on “a willingness to keep its word and to act when action is required.” Richard Perle, a leading neo-conservative and adviser to the Pentagon, has questioned whether a “coalition of liberal democracies” would not be better able to confer legitimacy on military action than the UN.

The principal object of everyone's criticism is the Security Council, the 15-member body responsible for taking the key decisions over war and peace. Composed of five powerful permanent members with veto rights—the United States, China, Russia, France and Britain—and ten elected rotating members without a veto, it is widely seen as anachronistic and woefully unrepresentative of today's geopolitical realities. Why, for example, should Russia, with a GDP smaller than the Netherlands', have a permanent seat, rather than Japan, the world's second-biggest economy? Why not give India a seat, or Brazil?

The arguments have been around for years, but nothing has been done. Now, in Mr Annan's view, the need for reform is urgent. “Unless the Security Council regains the confidence of states and world public opinion,” he said in September, “individual states will increasingly resort exclusively to their own national perceptions of emerging threats and how best to deal with them.”

None of the big five is about to relinquish its privileges. But Mr Annan has called for an enlargement of the council to make it more representative. Under one proposal, five more countries—probably Brazil, India, Germany, Japan, and one African country—would get permanent seats on the council, though with no veto, along with four more rotating members elected on a regional basis every two years.

But an enlarged Security Council is likely to produce even greater discordance, not less. To make agreement easier, some have proposed abolishing the whole veto system. But without the veto, many of the big members—especially the United States—would be even more tempted to work outside the UN.

A UN working group has been studying these and other proposals for Security Council reform for the past ten years, without result. This is why Mr Annan, in setting up his new reform panel, has decided to concentrate on policy issues rather than structural ones. These will include not only “hard” threats, such as terrorism and WMD, which worry the rich world most, but also the “soft” threats of much greater concern to the rest of humanity, such as famine, poverty and disease, as well as civil war and brutal regimes (see article).

Needing each other
As Mr Annan points out, all these struggles are linked. Not least, the UN's usefulness in other areas wins it respect from America, which otherwise it might not have. Despite complaints about bloated bureaucracy, the Bush administration admires the huge amount of work the organisation does through its various humanitarian, social and economic agencies. American officials applaud the UN peacekeeping operations in East Timor, Sierra Leone and Liberia. And they value the UN's role as an influence-multiplier, a burden-sharer and a provider of expertise they themselves do not possess in areas such as peacekeeping and nation-building.

In many ways, therefore, the UN is a means to America's ends. “I believe profoundly that the US and UN need one another,” Mr Annan declared last month. However “flawed” the UN may be, says Richard Holbrooke, America's ambassador to the UN under Mr Clinton, “it is indispensable to American national interests”. Mr Bush, too, who enjoys warm personal relations with Mr Annan, accepts that the UN has its uses. Publicly, the United States is giving its full backing to Mr Annan's reform efforts. Indeed, an American, Steven Stedman, is heading the reform panel's secretariat, which is expected to do most of the leg-work.

This support clearly has its limits, particularly where pre-emption is concerned. American officials admit privately that the United States does not want any “iron-clad rules” which might cramp its style. But since the rules have already been stretched to accommodate a certain amount of pre-emption, agreement on a new set of principles may not, in practice, be impossible. Besides, the UN can still act as a restraining influence and a valuable sounding board for world opinion; and America, no matter how powerful, would prefer to have the world on its side.
 
What I find interesting, mainly, about this article, is the fact that Bush Jr. seems to think that "both the credibility of the UN, and its relevance, depended on “a willingness to keep its word and to act when action is required.”", and that the time when action is required is when the US seems to think it is time.

Also I feel that the necessity that is given to pre-emptive stikes is bad. Pre-emptive strikes should be avoided as much as possible, and should certainly not be undertaken on the basis of mere suspicion, vague "proof", or by a single country. Hrmph.
 
So if we knew of Germany's or Japan's plan earlier, we should've let them attack right? Sander, your country has been happy and peaceful for about fifty years right? If you don't count the tensions of the Cold War. So, Iraq had no power to hit us, but they did have plenty of space and resources to support terror and hide our enemies. You would be singing a different tune if your country was attacked by terrorists in which Sadam supports and harbors. And I chose that the UN should be reformed. I think the idea of a veto being turned over is a good idea. But these days, when the only super power around is not sadistically bent on communizing the world, the only need for the UN is a humanitarian alliance of nations for humanitarian purposes. But their purpose can be changed in times of devastating wars on a scale with Vietnam or WW2. I don't think they should be dissolved altogether yet.
 
King said:
You would be singing a different tune if your country was attacked by terrorists in which Sadam supports and harbors.

So, King, are you saying that the Dutch would have unilaterally bombed and invaded Iraq and Afghanistan?

--Boner
 
You would be singing a different tune if your country was attacked by terrorists in which Sadam supports and harbors.
How about: No I wouldn't.
And to say this again: I Still haven't seen any evidence of those WMD OR terrorist connections AT ALL.

scale with Vietnam or WW2
How could you even begin to compare the two? *sigh*

So if we knew of Germany's or Japan's plan earlier, we should've let them attack right?
You did. The US only got involved AFTER war had been declared on it.

As well as that, there was no UN or great alliance involving the USA< so the USA couldn't be called upon on that basis for help by invaded countries.
 
Tromboner999 said:
King said:
You would be singing a different tune if your country was attacked by terrorists in which Sadam supports and harbors.

So, King, are you saying that the Dutch would have unilaterally bombed and invaded Iraq and Afghanistan?

Holland did in fact send the taskforce to run Afghanistan for half a year, together with Germany. They just left a few months back.

And we helped with Iraq, somehow, we're still there. Voting on whether or not we'll stay is up soon.
 
*sigh* Sander, I didn't compare the two. I was saying on a scale as big As Vietnam, or WW2. And where is the proof that we knew Sander? I never said anything about WMD's, so I don't know where you see me saying that, as for them harboring terrorists, that kind of evidence it just plain obvious.

Here is the harboring terror proof:

http://wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_terroristsandwmd42203.html

Here is that little thing about the alliance between Osama and Saddam by the way.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/378fmxyz.asp

PS: That Israel thing someone mentioned earlier. They are doing what they are doing and the UN isnt interfering due to the desperatness of the situation. The Israelis are actually fighting for their rights and freedoms. But then again, they did take away Palestinian liberties and some freedoms. So the situation there is more of a holy war and no one really wants to get involved including the US due to the feriousity of the situations.
 
I didn't compare the two. I was saying on a scale as big As Vietnam, or WW2.
And how is that not comparing them?
Okay, so you're not comparing them, you're just implying(borderline saying) that they were of the same scale. Riiiiight.

The harboring terror proof, is actually no proof at all, since it's just a bunch of statements without sources made by some guy. It talks about ONE(disregarding Saddam himself) whole terrorist being harbored. Wow, what a harboring of terrorists that is.
The weekly standard evidence is more convincing, although the article is obviously biased, and I haven't read it anywhere else in a month(Which is very surprising if it is all true, seeing as how I try not to miss a thing about this thingie).

Also, the ISraelis aren't fighting for their rights and freedoms, they are fighting for land where the Palestinians were living until they just took it. They are also not doing much for the road to peace, and even sabotaging it in a way. Not that the Palestinians are much better.
 
Ok Sander, I can't put this any more clearly. I wasn't comparing them, I was saying on a scale AS big as Vietnam OR WW2. That means if a war is that violent. And if you ever do find proof that we knew of what Japan had planned, then please inform us so we are a little wiser.
 
You mean the simple fact that there were negotiations between the USA and Japan upto the start of the war between the two, and that there were some very obvious signals towards the USA that this would end in a war(And yes, they did pick that up). Not to mention the fact that there is a valid theory that to a certain extent president Roosevelt may even have made preparations to lure the Japanese into Pearl Harbor to get into war(Although this remains speculation).
Well, except for those things, you have me there.

And about Vietnam and WW2, I heavily object to putting them in the same sentence, even in terms of violence. Vietnam was on a smaller scale(Which is, by the way, badly phrased by you), and it was absolutely different. Where Vieetnam was jungle and tunnel fights, and napalm bombing, WW2 was paradrops, trenches, city bombing(not napalm) and other such things. Even on a scale of violence I can't see how you can compare the two. The casuality numbers are completely different, the way of fighting is different. The only real valid comparison is that they were both wars.
 
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