Thoughts on the brotherhood?

[Yossarrion]

I have seen the BoS grow from what they were in the first fallout to fallout 4 and I am curious what do you guys think about them. I find it hard to discuss with people as if you ask the questions there is a large amount of people who call them bigoted fascists which I find a bit silly. I don't think they are looking to be in charge but being in charge in fallout generally happens if you have trained men in power armor with high powered weaponry. I know the NCR sent them packing out of the west coast, but everywhere else they seem to do fine.

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

I find it hard to discuss with people as if you ask the questions there is a large amount of people who call them bigoted fascists which I find a bit silly.

Sounds like Redditors.

I think the brotherhood has been seriously “flanderized”, as they say. In the first game they really aren’t that bad. They don’t seem much more xenophobic than most other groups in the game, they openly trade with other settlements, their front gate guard is very friendly, they don’t go around taking tech from people. But because of their portrayal in 3, I think a lot of fans have overcorrected by claiming that the brotherhood was always this evil, hateful, borderline genocidal faction. Their portrayal in NV and 4 seems to reflect this, though this version of the brotherhood began as early as Van Buren with the NCR war. A lot of the inconsistencies with their portrayal can be chalked up to organizations changing over time, which I feel Van Buren/New Vegas gave reasonable explanations for.

Each game might as well have a different BOS because of how different they act as an organization in each game. Fallout 1 has them as realistically amoral but not outright evil in any way, not even “bad” really. Fallout 2 has them as mysterious good guys that don’t seem to have a huge problem with the technological advances of everyone else, excluding the Enclave. 3 has them as altruistic warriors fighting against the evil super mutants and enclave (again). NV has them as a dying organization like in 2 but more radical and hostile to outsiders. 4 tries to bring them back to their roots by making them expansionist, genocidal mutant haters for some reason.

(accidentally pressed post before I finished)

 

[PaxVenire]

I think since the beginning Fallout devs couldn't separate the BOS from Power Armor, thus if Power Armor needs to be in every entry, so does the Brotherhood. This leads to a problem where you want to add the Brotherhood to every new entry, but don't want them to be exactly the same as the last, so you have a hodgepodge of portrayals that clash with each other in every entry, never consistent.
One game they're a very small cell of techno fetishists and semi-isolationists in the middle of nowhere. Next game they're complete and total isolationists in the middle of everywhere yet on their last legs of relevancy. Then they're all of a sudden powerful and resourceful enough to build an airship and cross the continent. Then they're a military force large enough to trek across the continent to Washington D.C. where they split into two factions where one side wants to be like they were in the first game (which is already 4 layers of backwards) and the other side want to be Power Rangers. But sike, they weren't big enough of a military force to protect themselves from a growing NCR, being beaten back all the way to Las Vegas and forced to hide in a small bunker isolated from the outside world again. But meanwhile on the East Coast, the two splinter groups join to become one weird large group that wants to be like they were in the first game (which is 5 layers of backwards now) while also being okay with outsiders now for some reason and not giving a shit about their suffering brothers on their own homefront. But just when you thought it stopped getting confusing, sike they've always been a powerful and resourceful military force with the ability to send half their ranks across the country only 25 years after the bombs.
The BOS are a mess and need to be dropped already. I think by the second game they should've been history with a new Power Armored faction to take their place (which would have been the Enclave I guess). Then the third game should've had an entirely new faction with Power Armor incorporated into their ranks. Instead, we have multiple layers of inconsistency tied into an undoable knot.
At the very least the West Coast side of the BOS somewhat makes linear sense:
Small sect of techno isolationists help fight off the Unity, saving the wasteland and coming out of their shell > The NCR is formed and is thankful for the Brotherhood's help, allowing them to make multiple bases in their territories > As the NCR grows stronger and more imperialistic, the come to odds with the BOS with war eventually being declared > The BOS was too self absorbed to think of this contingency and as a result were beaten back into isolation.

 

[Yossarrion]

Sounds like Redditors.

Just normies or neurodivergent people on the internet it seems lately, only subreddit I visit now is one for selling/trading miniature wargames stuff for the deals.

I think the brotherhood has been seriously “flanderized”, as they say. In the first game they really aren’t that bad. They don’t seem much more xenophobic than most other groups in the game, they openly trade with other settlements, their front gate guard is very friendly, they don’t go around taking tech from people. But because of their portrayal in 3, I think a lot of fans have overcorrected by claiming that the brotherhood was always this evil, hateful, borderline genocidal faction. Their portrayal in NV and 4 seems to reflect this, though this version of the brotherhood began as early as Van Buren with the NCR war. A lot of the inconsistencies with their portrayal can be chalked up to organizations changing over time, which I feel Van Buren/New Vegas gave reasonable explanations for.

It's as Pax said a very odd flanderization since they went backwards and forwards with it. FO1 they were largely a good force that were there, they existed as an endgame faction to help you out vs the higher end mutants. In 2 they could've just been replaced with terminals for all it mattered. 3 you had the BoS split and I find the FO3 characterization of them to be the most different. They were very hostile and dismissive of the wastelanders (which is fair, they are wearing power armor and have big guns) and they split into two groups due to internal strife. NV we have a dieing BoS chapter that's been sent to exile an elder who further screwed the chapter over. Then in 4 we have a massive super power of the wasteland that is probably on par with the Enclave at its height which feels the most out of place, (not how the faction operates, but rather the size of it)

But just when you thought it stopped getting confusing, sike they've always been a powerful and resourceful military force with the ability to send half their ranks across the country only 25 years after the bombs.

I really dislike that 76 had west coast brotherhood. I was fine with Maxson just radioing over to Taggerty, but Bethesdas retarded decision to have no NPCs really screwed the story of that game at the start for the BoS.

I think since the beginning Fallout devs couldn't separate the BOS from Power Armor,

I feel like they did this in FO2. The first time you really do anything with them is in SF and you get sent to Navarro where the Enclave hands you a plasma rifle and APA. You return to the BoS bunker and can get some t-51 at that point but outside of followers theres no point.

Small sect of techno isolationists help fight off the Unity, saving the wasteland and coming out of their shell > The NCR is formed and is thankful for the Brotherhood's help, allowing them to make multiple bases in their territories > As the NCR grows stronger and more imperialistic, the come to odds with the BOS with war eventually being declared > The BOS was too self absorbed to think of this contingency and as a result were beaten back into isolation.

This timeline is pretty much the only thing I'm looking forward to being explained in the TV show. I have a feeling the canon in the show (and now the universe I guess) will be Ulysses nuking the NCR and sending it back to the stone age. Then we can see how the BoS interacts as they come from the East Coast I assume.

 

[PaxVenire]

I really dislike that 76 had west coast brotherhood. I was fine with Maxson just radioing over to Taggerty, but Bethesdas retarded decision to have no NPCs really screwed the story of that game at the start for the BoS.

What pisses me off even more about this is the fact that there was no reason to just resurrect the Appalachian BOS like they did with the Responders. Settlers of Shady Sands from 2102 didn't come restart the Responders, Appalachian survivors did. They could've easily added lore about the 76ers resurrecting the Appalachian BOS, but chose this cheap shit.

I have a feeling the canon in the show (and now the universe I guess) will be Ulysses nuking the NCR and sending it back to the stone age. Then we can see how the BoS interacts as they come from the East Coast I assume.

To be honest, from the way Johnathan Nolan talks about Fallout, it seems he's only played Fallout 3. I doubt the showrunners even knew about Fallout New Vegas, much less the Divide choices for the Lonesome Road DLC. I think what will happen is they'd just say the NCR has crumbled, handwave it forcing fans to just draw their own conclusions and fight over whether it makes sense or not on Reddit, then just have the BOS take over (which they also won't explain how the West Coast BOS got so big).

 

[Yossarrion]

What pisses me off even more about this is the fact that there was no reason to just resurrect the Appalachian BOS like they did with the Responders. Settlers of Shady Sands from 2102 didn't come restart the Responders, Appalachian survivors did. They could've easily added lore about the 76ers resurrecting the Appalachian BOS, but chose this cheap shit.

Yeah, they could've had some remnants of the bos hiding out in a bunker and integrating with the rest of the NPCs but using the tried and true classic was too much for befesda.

To be honest, from the way Johnathan Nolan talks about Fallout, it seems he's only played Fallout 3. I doubt the showrunners even knew about Fallout New Vegas, much less the Divide choices for the Lonesome Road DLC. I think what will happen is they'd just say the NCR has crumbled, handwave it forcing fans to just draw their own conclusions and fight over whether it makes sense or not on Reddit, then just have the BOS take over (which they also won't explain how the West Coast BOS got so big).

Yeah but Mr House has a speaking credit so I'm gonna assume something from New Vegas will end up in it.

 

[PaxVenire]

Yeah, they could've had some remnants of the bos hiding out in a bunker and integrating with the rest of the NPCs but using the tried and true classic was too much for befesda.


Yeah but Mr House has a speaking credit so I'm gonna assume something from New Vegas will end up in it.

Hm, I wonder if pre-war flashback or monitor Mr. House.

 

[Yossarrion]

Hm, I wonder if pre-war flashback or monitor Mr. House.

Could be, it's one of the only things to be curious about

 

[Hardboiled Android]

What pisses me off even more about this is the fact that there was no reason to just resurrect the Appalachian BOS like they did with the Responders. Settlers of Shady Sands from 2102 didn't come restart the Responders, Appalachian survivors did. They could've easily added lore about the 76ers resurrecting the Appalachian BOS, but chose this cheap shit.

Well to be fair it gets to be a little silly if EVERY SINGLE FACTION ends up getting resurrected by people who were just out of frame. They probably figured since they already used that trick for the Responders, they should do a different one for the Brotherhood, and the Brotherhood coming from Lost Hills is POSSIBLE, even if it's not ideal.

Hm, I wonder if pre-war flashback or monitor Mr. House.

My guess is pre-War flashback. Since Walton Goggin's character was a major Vault-Tec spokesman before the War I'm betting he's going to meet Mr. House at some flashback cocktail party and we'll all get to enjoy an Epic Gamer Moment.

 

[PaxVenire]

My guess is pre-War flashback. Since Walton Goggin's character was a major Vault-Tec spokesman before the War I'm betting he's going to meet Mr. House at some flashback cocktail party and we'll all get to enjoy an Epic Gamer Moment.

Fallout Mad Men starring Goggins and Mr. House

 

[The_Proletarian]

The BoS should probably just keep to themselves and only get involved in world events when they themselves feel threatened by something in the outside world. Like the Master, the Enclave and eventually the NCR (which was their downfall). It's difficult to see a future for them in a changing wasteland. Unless they do as in Fallout: Tactics and decide to evolve into something different.

 

[Baron of Arizona]

I love my techno-cultists, strong contrasts always attracted me so naturaly I really love the fact that most advanced faction is a religious medieval order. I think main reason why BoS is hated on reddit or anywhere else really is New Vegas, there we see them beaten, broken and almost dead, many charismatic characters like Mr. House and Caesar hate them. Most players take their words as objective truth. Also in NV BoS goes on crusades to take hightech from others? There is nothing like it mentioned in F1 and F2, in fact they sell their hightech guns for food and share their tech with San-Fran and NCR according to the Bible. I actually like NV change, used it to justify BoS-villians in my Fallout-PnP with friends, but I wish NV bothered to explain when or why they turned from monks into crusaders.
Also none of those Fallout fans actually played Fallout 1 and 2 where we could see BoS in all it's glory and see why some liked them originally and people often get a lot of things from those games wrong. When Fallout 4 just came out and I've been saying that Bethesda turned BoS into Enclave Light, people on reddit were arguing that BoS always was like that and in Fallout 1 it was all about hunting down supermutants. I think I damaged my brain when I met the guy who was shiting on BoS because it was trading slaves with New Reno and he got a lot of upvotes. Any person who played F1 and F2 know that it's bullshit and I have seen more and more lies and missinformation spread about BoS (and not only them) amoung the people who don't care to even check the wiki.

 

[The_Proletarian]

There is nothing like it meantioned in F1 and F2, in fact they sell their hightech guns for food

That was one of my biggest amazements when I replayed Fallout 1 back in 2022. The BoS gives away advanced guns for food? Why not produce food themselves and keep the guns? That fact tells you a lot of what kind of organisation they are. They are not expansionists.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

I love my techno-cultists, strong contrasts always attracted me so naturaly I really love the fact that most advanced faction is a religious medieval order. I think main reason why BoS is hated on reddit or anywhere else really is New Vegas, there we see them beaten, broken and almost dead, many charismatic characters like Mr. House and Caesar hate them. Most players take their words as objective truth. Also in NV BoS goes on crusades to take hightech from others? There is nothing like it mentioned in F1 and F2, in fact they sell their hightech guns for food and share their tech with San-Fran and NCR according to the Bible. I actually like NV change, used it to justify BoS-villians in my Fallout-PnP with friends, but I wish NV bothered to explain when or why they turned from monks into crusaders.
Also none of those Fallout fans actually played Fallout 1 and 2 where we could see BoS in all it's glory and see why some liked them originally and people often get a lot of things from those games wrong. When Fallout 4 just came out and I've been saying that Bethesda turned BoS into Enclave Light, people on reddit were arguing that BoS always was like that and in Fallout 1 it was all about hunting down supermutants. I think I damaged my brain when I met the guy who was shiting on BoS because it was trading slaves with New Reno and he got a lot of upvotes. Any person who played F1 and F2 know that it's bullshit and I have seen more and more lies and missinformation spread about BoS (and not only them) amoung the people who don't care to even check the wiki.

To be fair to New Vegas, or rather to flesh it out since you - it's following a trajectory from Fallout 1 to Fallout 2. In Fallout 1, the Brotherhood has closed it's ranks for some decades after fighting with the Vipers proved too costly, and when the player actually meets them in Fallout 1 they're split between more inward-looking members and more outward-looking members, with a general skepticism and closed-offedness. The more outward members do win out in Fallout 1, and for a time their contact blooms with California. They help to build up the NCR, and seem to expand.

However, some time in the long expanse between Fallout 1 and Fallout 2, the picture shifts. Of course the Brotherhood are not at all a big part of the game, but what's his name lays it all out pretty clearly -

"At one time we were the sole bastions of technology left on the planet. We set ourselves up as what could best be called 'technology police.' We hoarded the old knowledge and only doled it out in small parcels. Of course, it was only to those who we felt deserved it and had the wisdom to properly use it."

"The Brotherhood of Steel is not the power that we once were. We believed ourselves to be the sole source of technology left to mankind. Secure in this belief we have let our order decline over the years. Now we don't have the resources at our disposal to deal with the Enclave. We need your help."

The Brotherhood rested on its laurels, looked inward, and was controlling over the distribution of technology.

From there, the development postulated first in Van Buren - that the Brotherhood in its jealous control over technology comes to butt heads with NCR, and go to a really brutal war - makes perfect sense, and just as importantly is an interesting development in the narrative. Fallout 3 went in a different direction - one that's not really unjustifiable in the light of Fallout 1 and 2, it just wasn't interesting and done purely for the purpose of boiling the group down and allowing them to play a very particular role in the over-cinematic story contrived by Emil. New Vegas picks up the plot thread where Van Buren would have, making things interesting again - but unfortunately, as most of the fanbase is new and unacquainted with any of the finer details of the originals (and if they are it's filtered through a lens of Fallout 3), the New Vegas depiction ends up being divorced from its context and leaving many with the wrong idea.

 

[Alphons]

I wish Bethesda was brave enough to divorce the Power Armor and US Army remnants from the BoS.
There's so much you could do with these concepts and it's a real shame that they only get explored with Winds of War in Fallout Nevada.

I do like the concept of FO3's conflict between Lyons BOS and Outcasts, but like a lot of stuff it is very underused, without anything but a few mentions on some Citadel terminals, unmarked quest to collect items for Outcasts and 10% of Operation Anchorage.

I do not like the shift in FO4 BOS.
It's not really explained how their ideals shifted aside from "both Lyons died, Maxson is like West Coast BOS".

The same Maxson that worshipped Sarah Lyons and grew up away from the West Coast decided to do a complete 180° on the ideals that allowed them to wipe out the Enclave and secure all of their technology (like the airship and Vertibirds they use).

 

[PsychoSniper]

In 2 I believe they refrence an NCR state named Maxon, one of the 'good' ending slides in FO1 has the BOS becoming friends with the NCR.

My headcanon is some point after Fallout 2 the home bunker had a schism and a decent chunk left to become the mojave brotherhood, these tech gobblins strain ties between the ncr and home bunker, causing the lost hills bunker to if not go on lockdown to greatly pullback from the world...with the NCR leadership happy to leave them alone when not using them for tech assistance.

The midwest brotherhood and DC brotherhood in my headcanon are splinters of the same group, more militant members that left and splintered badly while traveling, possibly having came from what became the mojave chapter

In each case, they have different goals and objectives, which may slowly change over time with subsequent generations.

That said, I think they're being turned into something they're not... the monk with incense in the trailer for the TV show just looks like something that belongs in 40k.

edit:
an extra thought, the way they're devolving as the games progrees, the argument could exist they are becoming techno tribals.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

In 2 I believe they refrence an NCR state named Maxon, one of the 'good' ending slides in FO1 has the BOS becoming friends with the NCR.

Yes there is a state called Maxson, but at least in Chris Avellone's opinion the state is just named after Roger Maxson. Lost Hills and the Brotherhood at the time of Fallout 2 were still very much independent.

That said, I think they're being turned into something they're not... the monk with incense in the trailer for the TV show just looks like something that belongs in 40k.

I think leaning on the religious aspect is not a bad idea, because the fact of the matter is that they are an essentially religious organization. But the incense burning &c looks a little too on the nose.

edit:
an extra thought, the way they're devolving as the games progrees, the argument could exist they are becoming techno tribals.

Not only does such an argument exist - I'd make it, enthusiastically!

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

New Vegas (especially Joshua Graham’s dialogue in Honest Hearts) more or less clarified what exactly it means to be a “tribe” in Fallout, and the Brotherhood is definitely considered one.

 

[PsychoSniper]

I mean tribal in the sense that they are degenerating from an orginization

 

[Vault Dweller Donny]

I like the Brotherhood, but as a side faction or minor part in the game, in 1, 2, and New Vegas they were more off to the side, I really liked the lore New Vegas added with the Brotherhood, Father Elijah, Veronica, Christine, and the NCR VS Brotherhood war is very cool