Thrown Weapons Remade: an overdue issue

The skill isn't broken, it's not implemented much in game. Which is fine, because no-one is going to go through a whole fight using grenades and rocks. Nothing to change here, really.
 
Kharn said:
No doubt it was a very neat discussion, but the conclusion seems a bit lacking.

If all skills need to be equally balanced you need to either unbalance the gameplay badly to open up different, totally illogical paths or cut dead weight skills, which has no benefit over keeping the skills there as little used skills.

Why should all skills be of equal importance and why should we care if people never tag certain skills? It's not important, they're secondary skills, just like there are secondary skills in real life. You're not forced to put points into them, but you can experiment with them and while they will not majorly effect gameplay, being secondary skills, they will give you some small sidepaths to follow.

Problems; none. Cutting them away has no benifit. Balancing the game back to rebalance skills to the extreme means one fucked up game. Saying "balance!" doesn't mean shit when the endresult is heavily unbalanced gameplay.
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Very true, but in this way, throwing points into throwing is more or less the same as throwing the points away, which makes the entire skill largely pointless. The same goes to a lesser extent for some other skills, like doctor and first aid, or gambling. Sure, one can say 'secondary skills', but somehow it doesn't feel very balanced that some skills are much more important than others. Things must remain logical, though, but I don't see why putting throwing and, say, unarmed together can be a really bad plan, although it would feel a bit artificial.

As for the discussion, I think both Ratty and I agreed that balance meant that most paths must be viable, albeit that Ratty took the view that every possible path must be viable.
 
Sander said:
Very true, but in this way, throwing points into throwing is more or less the same as throwing the points away, which makes the entire skill largely pointless. The same goes to a lesser extent for some other skills, like doctor and first aid, or gambling. Sure, one can say 'secondary skills', but somehow it doesn't feel very balanced that some skills are much more important than others. Things must remain logical, though, but I don't see why putting throwing and, say, unarmed together can be a really bad plan, although it would feel a bit artificial.
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Putting throwing and unarmed would be a really bad plan because that makes no sense. At all. Ever.

Have you ever tried investing a few points in throwing before going to the Glow with some EMP grenades (also found there)? No? Try it, robots die in mini-seconds.

Sander said:
As for the discussion, I think both Ratty and I agreed that balance meant that most paths must be viable, albeit that Ratty took the view that every possible path must be viable.
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Most paths, yes. But I don't want to have an easy game with a Jinxed 1-luck tagged throwing, doctor and first aid skills...

The skill system did need some tweaking. Some of JE Sawyer's suggestions were good. Just have a game that accomodates the four major paths (fighting, thieving, sciencing and talking) and sometimes allows for sub-quests or extra solutions based on the secondaries. Fallout 1 and 2 worked a lot like that. Some issues here and there, but mostly it was fine.
 
Kharn said:
Putting throwing and unarmed would be a really bad plan because that makes no sense. At all. Ever.

Have you ever tried investing a few points in throwing before going to the Glow with some EMP grenades (also found there)? No? Try it, robots die in mini-seconds.
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That works without even investing one point in throwing as well, though, and it's just one possibility.
Frankly, if I look at SPECIAL and haven't played the game before, I'd think that there's probably a progression from small guns to big guns and then energy weapons, because it doesn't really make sense to start out with energy weapons or big guns, but I'd also think that unarmed, melee and throwing would be of equal worth in combat. Which would mean that players could be tempted to use a throwing-based character on their first run, and then realise that it doesn't work. At all.

Kharn said:
Most paths, yes. But I don't want to have an easy game with a Jinxed 1-luck tagged throwing, doctor and first aid skills...

The skill system did need some tweaking. Some of JE Sawyer's suggestions were good. Just have a game that accomodates the four major paths (fighting, thieving, sciencing and talking) and sometimes allows for sub-quests or extra solutions based on the secondaries. Fallout 1 and 2 worked a lot like that. Some issues here and there, but mostly it was fine.
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Let's not forget the stupid path. ;)
 
If you ask me, the main problem with throwing in Fallout was lack of good thrown weapons and lack of diversity. On one hand, you had spears and throwing knives which sucked, on the other hand you had plasma grenades which were extremely rare and thus not really feasible for day-to-day combat.

The issue could be easily resolved by introducing some abundant, easy-to-craft, non-sucky thrown weapons, such as sticks of dynamite or improvised frag and incendiary grenades; weapons you can stock up on and use in every battle to thin the enemy ranks a bit. Non-lethal weapons such as smoke grenades and stun grenades would also be a welcome addition and potentially of great use to any player, not just the Indigo Thrower.
 
The issue could be easily resolved by introducing some abundant, easy-to-craft, non-sucky thrown weapons, such as sticks of dynamite or improvised frag and incendiary grenades; weapons you can stock up on and use in every battle to thin the enemy ranks a bit
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Damn right! I remember the disbelief: "What! I cant throw a stick of dynamite! What the hell!" Use of dynamite and plastic charge depend on trap skill while use them to throw is not (I think) so why cant I throw then?

Actually, most people dont use throw in FO2 mainly because: 1>not much easy, cheap, effective weapon 2>not many perks. So the reasons are because Game dont have it, not because the concept is silly. Which is why I recommend more weapons and more Perks in FO3 (read my first post).

We can get HEave Ho really early, so If Heave Ho is more powerful for throwing--->there you have it. Silent Death is like late game Perk, os if it's applied to throwing also, more people will choose it. Especially HtH crowds. As it should be.
 
At one point in the game, I tried to make use of plasma grenades (wander around San Fran enough and you get enough encounters with Hubs to stock up) and all I got was grief. Even with a quite high skill, the damn things just didn't have a range that was worthwhile, not to mention all the accidents with teammates and such.

No, I think throwing is an ancillary talent that is properly represented: As a skill that is rarely-used and of bygone days. Invest points in it if you wish. I'd rather be able to put a sniper bullet through someone's eye, or knock him out cold with one punch.
 
Naaah

If you consider the game, without mega powerfist or ripper/super sledgehammer, Unarmed and Melee is not that great. If there are no 3-6 unarmed teachers in the game, Unarmed Fighter will eat dust. Melee got about 3-4 teachers. Throw got none :shock: .

In terms of Fallout reality, throw weapons play a very important role. To pirmitive tribal villages or trapper towns, without access to gunpowder or energy weaponry, throwing spears/knife or, at worst fighting with they (melee) are better options than bare hands. Man, look at the bloody geckos in HUnting grounds when you are at level 3-, not a knife or spear in hand, and tell me you dont have a sliver of fear in your guts. Haah. Replay the first twenty minutes of FO2 and tell me that.

The undevelopment of Throw weapon lie in the basis of Fallout . Fallout 1-2 are not totally combat game and not all aspect of combat was introduced fully and equally. If the team got more time, maybe. But real life pressure is real life pressure :evil: . I accept that. FT: BOS, on other hand, is a combat game. And you can see some improvement in throw weapons. They are not perfect which is why I request more in Fallout 3.

EDIT: And after reread ten post previously, It seems people assume I encourage playing thrower in Fallout 1-2. I didnot. I merely point out that throwing is an undeveloped skill need to be develop in the next Fallout game. It fit the reality of the game, It has potential in gameplay, more room for improvment, provide more flavour. It only need more perks, or the currrent perk system pay more attention to it, or something...

Like I said, give throwing a chance to grow, that's all.
 
The only real useful way to impliment throwing in FO3 would be to have a different slot solely for throwing weapons. As in real life you'd only have a couple of grenades or knives at your belt, it seems foolish for a tertiary weapon to have to take up one inventory slot which forces you to go to inventory during combat.
Whether this is a totally different discusion altogether, (which may or may not have already been discussed) but what about having slots for different types of weapons. Surely it has occured to some people that it isn't normal to carry a flamer in one hand and a rifle in the other.

Slot 1 - rifle, smg, spear or sledgehammer
Slot 2 - Handgun/side arm (ie club)
Slot 3 - Grenade, throwing knives, rocks

In the case of big guns such as flamers or gattling guns then maybe you should skip the second slot altogether - being so heavy and cumbersome.
 
Hotel California said:
Whether this is a totally different discusion altogether, (which may or may not have already been discussed) but what about having slots for different types of weapons. Surely it has occured to some people that it isn't normal to carry a flamer in one hand and a rifle in the other.
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The two item slots did not represent hands. They represented a weapon in your hand or hands and one at your belt or slung over your back (in the case of spears, hammer and big weapons).

The reason it was limited to two was gameplay balance, not directly logic. I think adding another would disrupt that balance, indeed. It would be hard to balance in-game combat to protect one from gamers that tag three combat skills and have a weapon for each skill in every slot.
 
AP cost for switching slots would work surely?
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I think its not necessary. Any greedy fighter like that will pay heavily already : his SPs used to improve 1/2 combat skill now spent on 3rd skill--> not good. If he want to spend his hard earned SP on so many combat skills like that, I think there's no need for P penalty when switching slot

3rd slot idea is intriguing I admit. Hmmmm...
 
Realistically it seems to me that changing weapons should take up an AP. I mean with rifles you have to sling it all the way over your back and then unlimber the other (which also isn't that great - two rifles/big guns; no way could you carry that AND 200lbs of other stuff on your back).
 
If switching weapons between left-right cost AP then I demand :evil: the introduction of dual pistols, dual shotguns (STR required) and dual assault rifles.

Just kidding :roll:
 
Don't forget the dual Specnaz Throwing Axes of Sentry Slaying +5, +7 against sentries.
 
Roddy Piper probably said it best when he said "Listen, you don't throw rocks at a guy that's got a machine gun." :D

A question though, does the perks Bonus Ranged Damage apply to the throwing skill? The game description states that "Your training in firearms and other ranged weapons has made you more deadly in ranged combat." Does "other ranged weapons" there apply to thrown ones?

If I remember correctly the Fast Shot Trait applies to Throwing in Fallout Tactics. Bonus Rate of Fire... I'm not sure but probably not because of "...pulling the trigger" description.

Maybe aside from better thrown weapons, Fallout needs more and better throwing-specific perks?
 
Maybe nobody is interested but I thought I'd chip in.

Kharn said:
If you mean "it wasn't effective to kill deathclaws/supermutants/enclave". No, no it wasn't,
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In terms of deathclaws, they could be one of the easier enemies to go up against with unarmed, they run to you and then you simply have to target the legs, the deathclaw goes down crippled and when it gets back up it tries to run away from you but can't make more than four hex.

Supermutants are only a problem when they carry heavy weaponry, if you start close they still have weak eyes.

The last part of the collapsed and buried vats turned out to be a *very* satisfying punch up.

Sander said:
Very true, but in this way, throwing points into throwing is more or less the same as throwing the points away, which makes the entire skill largely pointless. The same goes to a lesser extent for some other skills, like doctor and first aid, or gambling
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To be fair doctor had a fairly large impact on the game in fallout 2. It opened up more dialogue options, it gave you an extra party member, you could get more experience points with certain places and events and I believe it helped you get phoenix and dermal armour implants.

I don't think first aid was anywhere near as useful but I saw doctor as effectively being a different version of science, it just happened to let you heal yourself and gave you an extra damage perk aswell.
 
I have to disagree with most of the above, throwing in itself can be a viable attack pattern but not so for the item pickup, there simply are not enough of each genre of thrown item to justify undeviating convention
 
Thrown would have greater significance if you could perform a silent kill with knives - if you have corresponding stealth skill and maybe some other skills.
I liked to throw different stuff around, mostly grenades and they worked fine for my style of playing sometimes.
There is a difference in precision when you throw with small skill or above 100.
I used it allot i know.
Throwing molotov cocktails good at the beginning of the game can be useful and satisfying.

...all those roasted RodScorpions....yummy... and a few Raiders for desert.

The thing is, we have to have that option because it will always be enough of us that use it.
It should be only made more useful so that the rest of you go: mmmm.....
 
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