Todd Howard Q&A on Gamespot
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SimpleMinded
Vault Fossil
... I don't think Rosh is the one doing it when its on various sites...
laggerific
First time out of the vault
There is a place for consoles...a very fun and enjoyable place....but then there is a place for Fallout 3, and it is not on a console!!!
bastards
bastards
laggerific
First time out of the vault
Also...we expect that Peter Jackson needs to make some concessions in his trilogy...sure some can't handle it, but he hardly sacrificed quality. I expect Bethesda too, TES is a dry series with no life...sure they may be neat games, but Fallout is genious. I hope they know how to bridge that gap.
NCR_Ranger
It Wandered In From the Wastes
That whole "vocal minority" bullshit really pissed me off. Obviously we're not a minority. NMA is THE Fallout site, obviously it's representative of the fan base. Fuckin' moronic whore's. There are so many fans that don't bother to register (due to no hotmail accounts allowed here... 
) who feel the same way I do. The foundation of Fallout is probably going to be changed and we get hit for being too "fundamentalist" and not "open minded" enough! Go to hell! I can't speak for everyone here but I have no problem with changing things. I LOVED most of the stuff they were doing with Van Buren. Balancing the SPECIAL system = Brilliant, the 3D engine was actually REALLY nice! It WAS Fallout from what we gathered. The fan were really looking forward to it.
Sigh...
Does anyone know what the Van Buren devs are saying about this? I'd like to hear what Tim, JE, Puuk, MCA and all the others think about this.
) who feel the same way I do. The foundation of Fallout is probably going to be changed and we get hit for being too "fundamentalist" and not "open minded" enough! Go to hell! I can't speak for everyone here but I have no problem with changing things. I LOVED most of the stuff they were doing with Van Buren. Balancing the SPECIAL system = Brilliant, the 3D engine was actually REALLY nice! It WAS Fallout from what we gathered. The fan were really looking forward to it. Sigh...
Does anyone know what the Van Buren devs are saying about this? I'd like to hear what Tim, JE, Puuk, MCA and all the others think about this.
Business Venture
Business Venture
G-V.:
G-V. . thanks for volunteering your time and bandwidth, thanks for being the focal point, the center of attention, and remember, I will always respect you in the morning, no matter how poorly I convey
my best intensions.
Now.
What ""creative world"" are you referring to?
I can only "guess" at the nature of economic commerce, being a lowly wage slave for most of my IRS declarations. And over the years a lot of my unrealized "creative" potential has been exercised in playing games.
So, I merely 'guess' ...
the game industry is a business venture. The net result of the development must be a GAME, that will SELL, not some snotty little student art project that pisses on the whole world because it's the only ego satisfying action the ""artist"" has discovered for their private parts.
Crafting a game based on an existing (although dormant) franchise, on an EXISTING realm of expectations has liabilities. This persistence of vision, these existing images, these half filled, or half empty, canvases must eventually CONFORM to a minimum number of expectations if the designers wish to convince ALL gamers that this is a FO RPG game world worth playing, and , more importantly to the consumer, worth buying. Fallout, alone, on the box will not "sell", FO:BOS proved that.
There must be a game in the box, and it must appeal to gamers of all persuasions.
We are not ""fans"" to be milked by the merchandising of FO. We do not, as a whole 100%, as a marketing niche, run out and buy t-shirts we will never wear so we can swap them for action figures at the annual "Trek Fest". Although there are those who would, could, and can. They too have that right to live their lives, and seek their personal pleasures, along with the other fans tarred by your NMA_FO_Fan brush.
The ultimate goal is the mass market. Mass appeal implies a multitude of resonant "hooks" that COULD transcend the marketing cliches of fantasy game producers. And damn it, if they get it 'right' their intellectual property could expand into the sit down cinema and spin off TV residuals.
Bethesda has opted, paid for the privilege, to step out of their "safe"
known territory and take on a creative VENTURE with substantial financial risks. In their AD-VENTURE if they avoid the pitfalls of all the other smart market'eers, and succeed in getting a - game - in the box, then those - game - sales will vindicate their "'creative"" decisions.
How is it that you represent Bethesda? Is it some hypothetical, philosophical, political "bonding" of "dev's", that stereotypes, profiles, NMA and any "fan" that looks like NMA as a "class enemy" hostile to your unique "creative' vision. A Romaneo vision that proclaims all gamers as "your bitch". Then, when you line us up against the wall, for our expectations of what a post apocolytic game world might envision, then, you might as well blow away, the gamers that expect a "western" in ""Red Dead Revolver"" (westerns: another time and space neglected because it's got no fairies). Or blow off, the gamers that
paid for a presumed 'new' game and got a thread bare retread pumped
up on hype and "artistic" "creative" attitude.
What ""creative world"", what fascist-manifesto, are you advocating that apologizes for the corporate market'eers that have exploited the 'faith' of the consumer, and failed. Interplay has turned out a succession of mediocre, and worse, games, and lost millions following this go to hell attitude that fans, and ultimately ALL GAMERS, ... BE DAMNED. Why 'should' the people of this planet reward bad business decisions? Why coddle the corporate socialists with protected markets?
Remember, Interplay held FO3 hostage, we were instructed to BUY
FO:BOS if there ever was to be another FO. That "creative' bit of market'eering failed.
It might follow that disrespect for one might become disrespect for ALL. Especially as the dead lines loom, and rent and workman's comp and quarterly tax withholdings must be paid, unless one's eco-political entity is above all that like Mr. Heave Inc..
Holding the FO license as hostage to cover for a shoddy product, will fail. Interplay's bait and switch, failed.
If this is the start of the machinations , the "Big Lie" that the nasty FO fans are "'stabbing them in the back", then how can any company do 'better' then Interplay.
Bethesda can play it any way they want. They've paid for that privilege. At this early stage, when they are trying out templates, working out "their game face" they might consider a shining moment, a bright spark in the FO3 Saga when JE, et al, successfully sold the 'concept' of "'Van Buren"" to the FO community at large, by offering us the prospect of a GAME that would challenge, not our credulity, but our playing styles and gaming abilities.
They offered, not a label and an attitude, but a - game - in the box.
G-V., thanks again for providing the ""creative"" impulse of this discourse.
4too
Business Venture
G-V.:
G-V. . thanks for volunteering your time and bandwidth, thanks for being the focal point, the center of attention, and remember, I will always respect you in the morning, no matter how poorly I convey
my best intensions.
Now.
What ""creative world"" are you referring to?
I can only "guess" at the nature of economic commerce, being a lowly wage slave for most of my IRS declarations. And over the years a lot of my unrealized "creative" potential has been exercised in playing games.
So, I merely 'guess' ...
the game industry is a business venture. The net result of the development must be a GAME, that will SELL, not some snotty little student art project that pisses on the whole world because it's the only ego satisfying action the ""artist"" has discovered for their private parts.
Crafting a game based on an existing (although dormant) franchise, on an EXISTING realm of expectations has liabilities. This persistence of vision, these existing images, these half filled, or half empty, canvases must eventually CONFORM to a minimum number of expectations if the designers wish to convince ALL gamers that this is a FO RPG game world worth playing, and , more importantly to the consumer, worth buying. Fallout, alone, on the box will not "sell", FO:BOS proved that.
There must be a game in the box, and it must appeal to gamers of all persuasions.
We are not ""fans"" to be milked by the merchandising of FO. We do not, as a whole 100%, as a marketing niche, run out and buy t-shirts we will never wear so we can swap them for action figures at the annual "Trek Fest". Although there are those who would, could, and can. They too have that right to live their lives, and seek their personal pleasures, along with the other fans tarred by your NMA_FO_Fan brush.
The ultimate goal is the mass market. Mass appeal implies a multitude of resonant "hooks" that COULD transcend the marketing cliches of fantasy game producers. And damn it, if they get it 'right' their intellectual property could expand into the sit down cinema and spin off TV residuals.
Bethesda has opted, paid for the privilege, to step out of their "safe"
known territory and take on a creative VENTURE with substantial financial risks. In their AD-VENTURE if they avoid the pitfalls of all the other smart market'eers, and succeed in getting a - game - in the box, then those - game - sales will vindicate their "'creative"" decisions.
How is it that you represent Bethesda? Is it some hypothetical, philosophical, political "bonding" of "dev's", that stereotypes, profiles, NMA and any "fan" that looks like NMA as a "class enemy" hostile to your unique "creative' vision. A Romaneo vision that proclaims all gamers as "your bitch". Then, when you line us up against the wall, for our expectations of what a post apocolytic game world might envision, then, you might as well blow away, the gamers that expect a "western" in ""Red Dead Revolver"" (westerns: another time and space neglected because it's got no fairies). Or blow off, the gamers that
paid for a presumed 'new' game and got a thread bare retread pumped
up on hype and "artistic" "creative" attitude.
What ""creative world"", what fascist-manifesto, are you advocating that apologizes for the corporate market'eers that have exploited the 'faith' of the consumer, and failed. Interplay has turned out a succession of mediocre, and worse, games, and lost millions following this go to hell attitude that fans, and ultimately ALL GAMERS, ... BE DAMNED. Why 'should' the people of this planet reward bad business decisions? Why coddle the corporate socialists with protected markets?
Remember, Interplay held FO3 hostage, we were instructed to BUY
FO:BOS if there ever was to be another FO. That "creative' bit of market'eering failed.
It might follow that disrespect for one might become disrespect for ALL. Especially as the dead lines loom, and rent and workman's comp and quarterly tax withholdings must be paid, unless one's eco-political entity is above all that like Mr. Heave Inc..
Holding the FO license as hostage to cover for a shoddy product, will fail. Interplay's bait and switch, failed.
If this is the start of the machinations , the "Big Lie" that the nasty FO fans are "'stabbing them in the back", then how can any company do 'better' then Interplay.
Bethesda can play it any way they want. They've paid for that privilege. At this early stage, when they are trying out templates, working out "their game face" they might consider a shining moment, a bright spark in the FO3 Saga when JE, et al, successfully sold the 'concept' of "'Van Buren"" to the FO community at large, by offering us the prospect of a GAME that would challenge, not our credulity, but our playing styles and gaming abilities.
They offered, not a label and an attitude, but a - game - in the box.
G-V., thanks again for providing the ""creative"" impulse of this discourse.
4too
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
<quote>That whole "vocal minority" bullshit really pissed me off. Obviously we're not a minority. NMA is THE Fallout site, obviously it's representative of the fan base.</quote>
Don't be so full of yourself to assume that NMA represents even a majority of the Fallout fanbase. I myself think that Fallout and Fallout 2 are the best PC RPGs ever made, but I don't necessarily agree with several assertions embraced by NMA hotheads. The only thing I think everybody absolutely agrees on was that Brotherhood of Steel was a giant shit taken on Fallout and Fallout fans, as well as a commercial and entertainment travesty.
Also, anybody who thinks console games can't be deep haven't played games like Disgaea or Front Mission 4.
Games don't have to be "dumbed down" in order to be succesful on multiple platforms. Ghost Recon was a prime example of this. The tactical aspect of the Ghost Recon gameplay was a refreshing change for Xbox owners that had no other FPS to play other than Halo and it's clones. Ghost Recon was a success on the Xbox because of its unique design features, not in spite of them. This is a fallacy that's unfortunately been embraced by Red Storm, as they're planning the next Ghost Recon to have only one perspective as opposed to being able to switch control between different teams.
Morrowind didn't need to be dumbed down for the Xbox. Have you ever played Daggerfall? It was never released on a console, but it's control and interface isn't that much different from Morrowind.
A Fallout game being on the Console wouldn't be that hard to do. All the interface control needed was the use of a pointer which moves horizontally and vertically, and two buttons. Every console since the NES has had at least both of those.
The only problem is whether or not Bethesda commits itself to the same bullshit that you fellas have.
Don't be so full of yourself to assume that NMA represents even a majority of the Fallout fanbase. I myself think that Fallout and Fallout 2 are the best PC RPGs ever made, but I don't necessarily agree with several assertions embraced by NMA hotheads. The only thing I think everybody absolutely agrees on was that Brotherhood of Steel was a giant shit taken on Fallout and Fallout fans, as well as a commercial and entertainment travesty.
Also, anybody who thinks console games can't be deep haven't played games like Disgaea or Front Mission 4.
Games don't have to be "dumbed down" in order to be succesful on multiple platforms. Ghost Recon was a prime example of this. The tactical aspect of the Ghost Recon gameplay was a refreshing change for Xbox owners that had no other FPS to play other than Halo and it's clones. Ghost Recon was a success on the Xbox because of its unique design features, not in spite of them. This is a fallacy that's unfortunately been embraced by Red Storm, as they're planning the next Ghost Recon to have only one perspective as opposed to being able to switch control between different teams.
Morrowind didn't need to be dumbed down for the Xbox. Have you ever played Daggerfall? It was never released on a console, but it's control and interface isn't that much different from Morrowind.
A Fallout game being on the Console wouldn't be that hard to do. All the interface control needed was the use of a pointer which moves horizontally and vertically, and two buttons. Every console since the NES has had at least both of those.
The only problem is whether or not Bethesda commits itself to the same bullshit that you fellas have.
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Its funny you should say that about the new thief, because most of what I've read from fans claim that the game is a worthy successor to the first two.
The biggest design inconvenience from the cross-platform release I've heard of is the sectored loading zones in the City.
The biggest design inconvenience from the cross-platform release I've heard of is the sectored loading zones in the City.
NCR_Ranger
It Wandered In From the Wastes
It's a fan site. Fans come here. For every one of us, i'd say there is 100+ people who feel the same way. Its statistics. If there were others who felt differently they would be here, voicing there opinions. And yes, there are a few, but THEIR the minority.
Was the rest of your rant directed toward me; because I said nothing about consols.
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
No, it was a general address towards opinions in the rest of the thread.
I wasn't even aware this sight existed until half a year ago. I doubt the thousands of other fans that bought the games do either.
I wasn't even aware this sight existed until half a year ago. I doubt the thousands of other fans that bought the games do either.
Well, it's funny that you should mention that, because a number of other sites get their news from us, which spreads along, with comments, and it generally spreads what the more aware in the industry call "Word of Mouth". It's a very powerful force, and one that has worked in many situations.
It is the real reason why game series die or fail. Apparently, people are too busy reading the hype and not at what matters. The first thing on any fan's mind when they buy a sequel is "Is this game like the ones I've bought and played already." Changes from the established formula lead to further doubts of the game, as "If they changed the view, what else have they changed? Hell, for that matter, is it still Fallout? I'd better go ask my friends or take a quick look at a Fallout fan site and see what they think."
That's what happened to FOT, F
OS, and a number of other series I've mentioned in regards to corresponding fan sites and mailing lists, BBSs of old, etc. Except for some of the examples, they're best found on Usenet archives.
It is the real reason why game series die or fail. Apparently, people are too busy reading the hype and not at what matters. The first thing on any fan's mind when they buy a sequel is "Is this game like the ones I've bought and played already." Changes from the established formula lead to further doubts of the game, as "If they changed the view, what else have they changed? Hell, for that matter, is it still Fallout? I'd better go ask my friends or take a quick look at a Fallout fan site and see what they think."
That's what happened to FOT, F
OS, and a number of other series I've mentioned in regards to corresponding fan sites and mailing lists, BBSs of old, etc. Except for some of the examples, they're best found on Usenet archives.NCR_Ranger
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Rosh, do you know if JE, Tim, MCA or any of the other crew has commented as of late?
Well if everyone's opinion here basically represents 100 other people then I think at this point BethSoft should just give up and cancel the game, get their money back, and give the rights back to Interplay.
Ok that was melodramatic but I still think you guys need to calm the fuck down. Like I said before, we're not getting another X-Com but you're getting FO3. At least give it a chance because you're pretty lucky to be getting anything after the fucking up that Interplay did.
Ok that was melodramatic but I still think you guys need to calm the fuck down. Like I said before, we're not getting another X-Com but you're getting FO3. At least give it a chance because you're pretty lucky to be getting anything after the fucking up that Interplay did.
We're not giving up on this game, Cutedge, but this Fallout community has gone through enough Fallout announcements, cancellations and mishaps to have become so cynical and paranoiac that any game which is going to be made by any people other than the people who made Fallout 1 (or Troika, which has a lot of those people) is going to be criticised even before a single decision is being made about it. This is fear, paranoia and experience speaking. There have been previous announcements, but after Fallout 2, which was a good five or six years ago, nothing decent has happened. There was Fallout: Tactics, which may have been a decent game in its own right, but was a really crappy Fallout game. And then there was Fallout: BOS. Oh yeah, that wasn't long ago, and everyone remembers. man oh man what a piece of crap.
And then there were the numerous announcements, non-announcements and cancellations of Fallout games to make us even more paranoiac. Experience has made this community into what it is, and experience has also given us all the right to complain and be extremely critical. We all want another Fallout 3, but we do want it to be done well. So we're already criticising everything to do with Bethesda, but in this form, we are actually giving advice to Bethesda. If Bethesda manages to listen to the fans and make a good Fallout-worthy game, then they will be heralded as heroes. But if they fail, they will be stomped upon and ruthlessly destroyed by practically every Fallout fan on this forum. This community has gone through a lot of dissappointments, and as a consequence it merely expects another one.
And then there were the numerous announcements, non-announcements and cancellations of Fallout games to make us even more paranoiac. Experience has made this community into what it is, and experience has also given us all the right to complain and be extremely critical. We all want another Fallout 3, but we do want it to be done well. So we're already criticising everything to do with Bethesda, but in this form, we are actually giving advice to Bethesda. If Bethesda manages to listen to the fans and make a good Fallout-worthy game, then they will be heralded as heroes. But if they fail, they will be stomped upon and ruthlessly destroyed by practically every Fallout fan on this forum. This community has gone through a lot of dissappointments, and as a consequence it merely expects another one.
Cutedge said:
Maybe you need to educate yourself, first.
In name, or in design? If it's to be expected that we accept it in name only, go blow your brains out for having jack shit for integrity. Maybe a little X-Acto action on the wrists. Whatever floats your boat, or body, as the case may be.
Are you familiar with a game called Fountain of Dreams? I'm just curious.
Well let's just hope that Bethesda just says "ok, they're just upset" and wades through the screaming and doesn't just tune out the entire input.
I feel pretty educated about this issue. Hearing about a new game coming that will be amazing and then having it cancelled is the worst (see also: X-Com Genesis). However, I still think you guys are overreacting when it comes to this issue because they haven't said much except for "well, we don't know". I can understand why, but calling for BethSoft's heads at this point isn't going to do much.
We'll see, but it's what, day 3? Again, I don't think they know what they're doing with it. However, when people are already saying they won't buy it, there's a possiblity that they'll say "fuck it, then we'll just ignore them" instead of listening and seeing that people, say, want turn-based and a fallout-style camera (ie, not connected to player's location).
I wasn't aware someone tried to sequel Wasteland, but I can see why i didn't hear about it.
But here's one: I'm aware of the game "Dreamland Cronocles" [sic]. It was being made by Mythos Games, makers of X-Com, which was sold after the funding was cut by BethSoft's parent company (Virgin Interactive for this, i think). The license was sold to a company called Altar who threw away what was already done and made their own engine and design choices and renamed to UFO:Aftermath. The game came out. It wasn't as good as some would have liked but it was pretty decent. The design followed the same ideals as what Mythos would made, it's just that it had some serious gameplay issues.
Worse case scenario*: you end up with something like that. Different, but kinda the same and just not as good as the original. Luckily UFO:A wasn't as bad as it could have been because they listened to the fans. BethSoft says they'll do that so hopefully they'll do better than ALTAR did in terms of coming up with a game that is what the fans want. (Although part of the problem with UFO:A was that it was limited by funding, and some serious balance issues).
Like I said, I keep bringing up X-Com because it damn near parallels the Fallout series in how much bullshit it's fans have had to go with.
* ( actually your worst case scenario could be worse but for the argument here, i'll call that the worst case scenario: a game that almost thought about pulling it off but instead falls pretty short )