Turkey is not European! Is too! Is not! Is too!

[Mani]

I'm shocked countries like Germany, France and the Netherlands, all of which a large number of Turkish immigrants, gave 12 points to Turkey.
Really, the Turkish "artist" could just be some guy taking a dump on the main stage and these countries would still give him full points. Yay for SMS voting.
It's extra funny because Turkey is just a Middle Eastern country trying to belong to Europe. Sure a spec of their land is on European soil but the big turd shaped rest of it is all rotting in the Middle East like it should. (go Kurds!)

Also good to see the Eastern European circle jerk is still going strong. Maybe next time you invade each other the genocide will be limited because hey, at least they voted for you in the last Euroretarded song festival!

And thank you Finland for showing the world a weak GWAR ripoff can win on comedy value alone, making sure everyone knows this retarded contest is the biggest, lamest and longest running joke, ever.

 

[Sander]

I'm shocked countries like Germany, France and the Netherlands, all of which a large number of Turkish immigrants, gave 12 points to Turkey.
Really, the Turkish "artist" could just be some guy taking a dump on the main stage and these countries would still give him full points. Yay for SMS voting.
It's extra funny because Turkey is just a Middle Eastern country trying to belong to Europe. Sure a spec of their land is on European soil but the big turd shaped rest of it is all rotting in the Middle East like it should. (go Kurds!)

Shocked? Why shocked? Looking at the rest of the countries' voting behaviour, this is quite simply to be expected.

Also, the Turkey situation isn't near anywhere that simple. The boundaries of Europe are not set in stone like that, the perception of those boundaries generally changes with the times and political situation. Viewing Istanbul as the boundary of Europe may seem sensible now, but looking back on history it was part of the European culture for quite a while, including large parts of Turkey. The Iberian peninsula is in the opposite situation.

PS: I agree-eth with Malky.

 

[Mani]

I'm shocked countries like Germany, France and the Netherlands, all of which a large number of Turkish immigrants, gave 12 points to Turkey.
Really, the Turkish "artist" could just be some guy taking a dump on the main stage and these countries would still give him full points. Yay for SMS voting.
It's extra funny because Turkey is just a Middle Eastern country trying to belong to Europe. Sure a spec of their land is on European soil but the big turd shaped rest of it is all rotting in the Middle East like it should. (go Kurds!)

Shocked? Why shocked? Looking at the rest of the countries' voting behaviour, this is quite simply to be expected.

Also, the Turkey situation isn't near anywhere that simple. The boundaries of Europe are not set in stone like that, the perception of those boundaries generally changes with the times and political situation. Viewing Istanbul as the boundary of Europe may seem sensible now, but looking back on history it was part of the European culture for quite a while, including large parts of Turkey. The Iberian peninsula is in the opposite situation.

PS: I agree-eth with Malky.

I was sarcastic about being shocked...
And maybe from a cultural/political point of view the borders of Europe shifted throughout history, from a geographical point of view they don't, and those clearly indicate Turkey is not part of Europe.

It doesnt really make sense to define borders on culture, American culture is so similar to European now that using that argument would mean the US and Canada are part of Europe now (well more likely it's vice versa now, heh)

 

[Brother None]

And maybe from a cultural/political point of view the borders of Europe shifted throughout history, from a geographical point of view they don't, and those clearly indicate Turkey is not part of Europe.

You mean Turkey is geographical entity?

Because saying a political entity is not a part of a geographic entity is kind of...silly.

 

[Sander]

I was sarcastic about being shocked...
And maybe from a cultural/political point of view the borders of Europe shifted throughout history, from a geographical point of view they don't, and those clearly indicate Turkey is not part of Europe.

As I've said, there is no clear, agreed-upon geographical boundary of Europe (even the mediterranean boundary had shifted during Roman times, for instance).

It doesnt really make sense to define borders on culture, American culture is so similar to European now that using that argument would mean the US and Canada are part of Europe now (well more likely it's vice versa now, heh)

American culture in part, American mentality is a different story.
The problem is that countries are defined by their cultural identities, especially in Europe when the League of Nations and later the Allies enforced that.
But regarding Europe, how would you define the boundaries then? Is Russia a part of Europe, if yes, then what about the Asian part of Russia, if no, what geographical boundary could you possibly use?

 

[Mani]

You mean Turkey is geographical entity?

Because saying a political entity is not a part of a geographic entity is kind of...silly.

Currently Turkey is not part of Europe, should they move their political entity into Europe's geographical entity then they would be part of Europe. (say invade Greece, let the Kurds have old Turkey)

But regarding Europe, how would you define the boundaries then? Is Russia a part of Europe, if yes, then what about the Asian part of Russia, if no, what geographical boundary could you possibly use?

To the east the borders of Europe are the Ural Mountains, south of Russia the borders are the Caucasus mountains.

 

[Brother None]

Currently Turkey is not part of Europe, should they move their political entity into Europe's geographical entity then they would be part of Europe. (say invade Greece, let the Kurds have old Turkey)

Dude, Turkey as a country is already partially inside the geographical entity of Europe. However, two things:

1. AGAIN, saying a political entity is "inside" a geographical entity is retarded. Split the two. Either something as a geographical entity is part of another geo entity or something as a political entity is part of another poli entity, don't mix the two up.

2. "Europe" as a geographical entity does not exist. The Ural borders are arbitrary, Europe is a part of the Eurasian geographical entity (or continent, if you will).

 

[Sander]

To the east the borders of Europe are the Ural Mountains, south of Russia the borders are the Caucasus mountains.

As I've said before, completely arbitrary *and not set in stone*. The reason you think those are set in stone is because of political connotations and mentality. People have used rivers to denote the borders of Europe over the ages as well, at times the Wall was used even. Completely and utterly arbitrary.

 

[Mani]

Dude, Turkey as a country is already partially inside the geographical entity of Europe.

Denmark is partially in America, France is partially in the Pacific ocean, the UK is in the South Atlantic, Holland is in the Caribbean. Does that make those countries part of that geographical entity?

1. AGAIN, saying a political entity is "inside" a geographical entity is retarded. Split the two. Either something as a geographical entity is part of another geo entity or something as a political entity is part of another poli entity, don't mix the two up.

Again, political entities are inside of geographical entities. If not the US, Canada and even Australia/NZ would be part of Europe. Differences in mentality set aside, all of these geographical entities are the same politically. By your reasoning those countries should be allowed to enter in the Eurovision song contest. (though I doubt they'd want to)

2. "Europe" as a geographical entity does not exist.

Dude, Turkey as a country is already partially inside the geographical entity of Europe.

Contradict much?

As I've said before, completely arbitrary *and not set in stone*. The reason you think those are set in stone is because of political connotations and mentality. People have used rivers to denote the borders of Europe over the ages as well, at times the Wall was used even. Completely and utterly arbitrary

They are the accepted borders of Europe, what political shifts happened at the Ural Mountains since Genghis Khan to dispute that?
Also the Wall was never user for that, remember Evil Communist Eastern Europe?

 

[Wooz]

 

[Pajari]

:words:

This is by far the most pointless and unimportant debate of all the trite disagreements I've ever seen. Who the hell cares?

 

[Malky]

:words:

This is by far the most pointless and unimportant debate of all the trite disagreements I've ever seen. Who the hell cares?

Nerds like Kharn and Sander.

 

[Sander]

Denmark is partially in America, France is partially in the Pacific ocean, the UK is in the South Atlantic, Holland is in the Caribbean. Does that make those countries part of that geographical entity?

*blinks*
Well, if they actually were in those geographical entities then yes, duh.

Again, political entities are inside of geographical entities. If not the US, Canada and even Australia/NZ would be part of Europe. Differences in mentality set aside, all of these geographical entities are the same politically. By your reasoning those countries should be allowed to enter in the Eurovision song contest. (though I doubt they'd want to)

*blinks again*
That's not at all what is being said. Kharn is saying that a geographical entity is not the same as a political entity, not that all countries are somehow inside the same geographical entity.
It's more or less like saying that the physical land of America is part of the UN, while it's only the political entity that is part of the UN. Suppose Texas seceded and decided to not join the UN because they're all a bunch of hippies, then the geographical entity has changed, but the political entity has not.

They are the accepted borders of Europe, what political shifts happened at the Ural Mountains since Genghis Khan to dispute that?

No, they're not accepted borders.
And what political shifts sicne Genghis Khan? Man, you're really pushing it. What with Poland, Lithuania, Russia and what happened in Western Europe there have been plenty of times when some river delta was seen as the border of Europe, because Russia was, of course, not really Europe. Which is exactly what you're doing with Turkey. In a few years Turkey will eventually enter the EU, as a consequence Turkey will be seen as part of the political European entity, and the geographical entity of Europe, it's really that simple.

Also the Wall was never user for that, remember Evil Communist Eastern Europe?

Yes it was. A lot of people did not view 'Eastern Europe' as part of Europe. They really didn't.

 

[Mani]

*blinks*
Well, if they actually were in those geographical entities then yes, duh.

Well they are:
Denmark - Greenland
France - French Polynesia (of nuclear bomb testing fame)
UK - Falklands
Holland - Netherlands Antilles

*blinks again*
That's not at all what is being said. Kharn is saying that a geographical entity is not the same as a political entity, not that all countries are somehow inside the same geographical entity.

Of course they are not the same, and political entities can be spread over multiple geographic ones. The old British empire was a political entity that was present on all continents, however the British Isles were the only part of it that was in Europe.

It's more or less like saying that the physical land of America is part of the UN, while it's only the political entity that is part of the UN. Suppose Texas seceded and decided to not join the UN because they're all a bunch of hippies, then the geographical entity has changed, but the political entity has not.

Eh no, if Texas seceded the geographical entity would stay identical. It would mean a change in the political entity but only a minor one since Texas and the rest of the US would still be compatible political entities.

No, they're not accepted borders.
And what political shifts sicne Genghis Khan? Man, you're really pushing it. What with Poland, Lithuania, Russia and what happened in Western Europe there have been plenty of times when some river delta was seen as the border of Europe, because Russia was, of course, not really Europe. Which is exactly what you're doing with Turkey. In a few years Turkey will eventually enter the EU, as a consequence Turkey will be seen as part of the political European entity, and the geographical entity of Europe, it's really that simple.

Genghis Khan's expansion of the Mongolian EMpire was the first and last time anything politically interesting happened over the Ural Mountains since the Migration Period, Napoleon and Hitler didnt even come close.
The western part of Russia is of course part of Europe.
I'm sure Turkey will weasel their way into the EU eventually, and they might even join the political entity of Europe, I doubt they will ever join the cultural entity of Europe, but I know they cannot ever join the geographical entity of Europe while their homeland lies in the middle East.

Yes it was. A lot of people did not view 'Eastern Europe' as part of Europe. They really didn't.

Well then those people are idiots who need to buy a globe and get some basic education.

 

[Sander]

Well they are:
Denmark - Greenland
France - French Polynesia (of nuclear bomb testing fame)
UK - Falklands
Holland - Netherlands Antilles

And this is approximately the same as Istanbul being a part of Turkey why?

Eh no, if Texas seceded the geographical entity would stay identical. It would mean a change in the political entity but only a minor one since Texas and the rest of the US would still be compatible political entities.

Ugh, that's what I meant.
And if Texas seceded, they'd be different political entities, so 'compatible' is a pretty weird word to use.

Genghis Khan's expansion of the Mongolian EMpire was the first and last time anything politically interesting happened over the Ural Mountains since the Migration Period, Napoleon and Hitler didnt even come close.
The western part of Russia is of course part of Europe.

And this illustrates my point brilliantly. There's no of course in that, because that's just the *current* point of view, which has been very, very different over the course of years.

I'm sure Turkey will weasel their way into the EU eventually, and they might even join the political entity of Europe, I doubt they will ever join the cultural entity of Europe, but I know they cannot ever join the geographical entity of Europe while their homeland lies in the middle East.

They can't join the geographical entity *as you have defined it*, no. The problem is that that definition has been shaped over the years (and changed) purely because of political and cultural points of view.

Well then those people are idiots who need to buy a globe and get some basic education.

Then I suppose the whole of the world was idiotic in centuries before because they didn't view the Urals as the geographic border either, but a river Delta in, I believe, Poland.

 

[Duckman]

Hahaha, this is getting good...

I just thought it was part of Europe, even though it seems an Asian country... Oh well, what does it matter?

 

[Malky]

Where is this "Europe" place, anyway? I can't find it on my map of the US. =\

 

[Duckman]

Where is this "Europe" place, anyway? I can't find it on my map of the US. =\

Jeez man, look harder.

Look for the funny accents.

 

[Jebus]

Someone call Fas Ist.

 

[Mani]

And this is approximately the same as Istanbul being a part of Turkey why?

First, only half of Instanbul is on European soil, the other half and I believe the greater part of the Istanbul metropolitan area is on Western Asian soil.
Second, the territories I mentioned are parts of those respective countries, people in the Netherlands Antilles have Dutch passports so they are by definition just as Dutch as the rest, politically speaking.
Third, the city was called Constantinopel until the Ottomans conquered it in 1453, destroying the last remainder of the Roman Empire in the process. Now I'm not saying I still see it as occupied territory, but the city has had many names and even more owners since it was founded, so who is to say the city won't change hands again.

Ugh, that's what I meant.
And if Texas seceded, they'd be different political entities, so 'compatible' is a pretty weird word to use.

Well assuming Texas would become it's own democracy, and seeing how culturally they would be very similar I think compatible is the best word to use.

And this illustrates my point brilliantly. There's no of course in that, because that's just the *current* point of view, which has been very, very different over the course of years.

Well either western Russia is part of Europe or it's part of Asia, so are you saying that during the cold war Russia and there by Eastern Europe were in fact part of Asia?

They can't join the geographical entity *as you have defined it*, no. The problem is that that definition has been shaped over the years (and changed) purely because of political and cultural points of view.

You have to cut the EUrasian continent in half somewhere, everywhere else oceans and seas are used, so the best place to cut is where two bodies of water are relatively close. These bodies of water are the Black Sea and the Arctic ocean. Next best thing to use as geographical indicators are mountain ranges, here the Caucasus and Ural Mountains come into play, neatly cutting the Eurasian continent at the most logical place.

Then I suppose the whole of the world was idiotic in centuries before because they didn't view the Urals as the geographic border either, but a river Delta in, I believe, Poland.

If you're going to use Poland as the border of Europe, you might as well forget about Europe alltogether and refer to it as that thing that hangs of the west end of Asia.