U.S. veterans ask Bush to halt B.C.'s 'tribute to cowards'

[The Commissar]

Well I dont know about your personal experiences with those who fled to Canada, but knowing several who did I can say with absolute certainty they were not moral objectors to attrocities, but rather guys who would have simply prefered to go on doing nothing (I mean in general, they didn't really want to DO anything). That has perhaps tainted my perception of others who fled and I am willing to accept that the majority were not this way.


I fought the Rosh and the... Rosh won
I fought the Rosh and the... Rosh won

 

[Roshambo]

Well I dont know about your personal experiences with those who fled to Canada, but knowing several who did I can say with absolute certainty they were not moral objectors to attrocities, but rather guys who would have simply prefered to go on doing nothing (I mean in general, they didn't really want to DO anything). That has perhaps tainted my perception of others who fled and I am willing to accept that the majority were not this way if someone will say so.

And maybe all of those that were in Nam didn't have to kill innocents. I don't know. But I do know that some soldiers did get beaten and in some cases thrown through plate-glass windows when they returned from active duty in Nam, because they had to commit the atrocities. Yet, and get this part, the govt. at that time would often blame those who had to carry out the orders, but the massacres became known of.

The protesting previous to this had little to no effect and seemed to only fuel the administration's determination on pushing that down and enforcing the draft. I find it funny that of all wars, that "war" was the one in which a large amount of people not only protested, but also tried to evade because the war didn't fit along with national pride. Too bad some protesters vilified the wrong people, but you can blame the govt. controlled media for that, as usual.

Sept. 7 in Nelson. The proposed monument will be a bronze statue showing Canadians helping U.S. war resisters.

Not just those dodging the draft, those who were against the war but were also afraid of what their own govt. would do to them. Remember, some protesters were SHOT.

Of course, then it could be easy to say that people should martyr themselves for their cause, but that's usually only those who wouldn't take a bullet for what they believe in. It's also hard to protest when you're dead. So, in short, a little short list of options available at that time:

1. Enlist to avoid the draft and hope you get a job away from the killing. Not very likely at all. Also, this would have likely have gotten you beaten by angry protesters if they saw it.
2. Be drafted and go through the same, except the protesters don't care if you would be shot in the head if you disobeyed orders. You are obviously there in Nam and doing a soldier's duty, and soldiers were the ones blame was placed upon for the atrocities most of the time. This is the double-fuck most drafted Nam vets remember, triple if they got beaten by protesters when they got back home.
3. Ignored the draft. Federal prison.
4. Come up with some excuse to evade the draft, which might land you in prison, especially if you are arrested protesting and they do a background check on you.
5. Flee to Canada and stay out of the way.

Hmmm, which sounds the least likely to cause problems for onesself and others? No innocents are being killed by them.

So, instead of being with those that turned to violence in protesting the war and those who were killing innocents, people went to Canada and stayed out of the way; while the US was doing an about face from being the savior from WWII, and Feurer Nixon was busy giving orders for decimating parts of Cambodia and Nam ("Operation Breakfast", and more).

Tell me, does the phrase "Charlie Company" ring a bell at all? It only caused a huge protest in Washington once it was known to the public, and just like with the number of other villages besides My Lai that became public, the troops had the buck placed on them by both media and the govt. Given that the media wasn't as widespread as today with the presence of the internet, you can easily bet the govt. had a good thumb on the media. "Blame the troops, not the ones who are telling them to secure locations" seemed to be the message, and that was what turned protestors against the troops themselves.

Veterans Stage Anti-War Rally: Veterans from World Wars I and II, along with veterans from the Korean war stage a protest rally in New York City. Discharge and separation papers are burned in protest of US involvement in Vietnam.

I think the real problem some Nam vets have with this memorial is that the govt. really gave them no choice but to serve, and be the scapegoat, or be a criminal and risk prison by abandoning everyone and everything you have in order for the sake of your morals and saving lives - not just your own. They are angered at what they view as a celebration towards what could be seen as the easy way out (when in fact those people were leaving with nothing but their lives and to a foreign country to escape what their own country was doing), while those who died in Nam were remembered in the token memorial wall to say "Okay...maybe we DID fuck up."

Where's the memorial for the survivers who had to deal with the hell of the draft, the war, and then being the target of protester's hatred once they got back home? They need one, too. Those that were against the war deserve one as well, because it was a fucked up war. They need to be remembered as not just a conscience, but those who were trying to make sure the US still stood for what it says it does, even though the US govt. seems to have forgotten. Again, now.

 

[Macaco]

I agree with the people saying that, no matter the reason for the war, draft dodging is far from honorable, and building a monument to people who do it is simply ridiculous.

 

[The Vault Dweller]

I think the Canadians are doing it simply as an anti-war gesture to the US...not really cause they support them.

Ive always felt that America was established on a set of values and ideas...not on politicians and power. If the people disagree with what the powers that be tell them to do...well its only American that the people have the final say, for without the American people there is no government or institutions to make them do otherwise. Remember...by, for, and of the people!

Besides you people seem to forget God is often the sole-leadership in many people's lives. Choosing to die as a traitor to your country to obey God is somehow always left out of these debates...

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller

 

[CannibalKid]

For the most part, I believe the draft dodgers did the Army a service. Say all those draft dodgers didn't go to Canada and instead were shipped off to Vietnam, but maintained their mindset. Would these guys actually be useful in a combat situation vs the guy that tries to be the best soldier they possibly can? So what if a bunch of guys left for Canada. They'd probably just be replacements in Army units and would slow them down, give away the units position, or find another way to increase the risk to soldiers who are much more experianced.

Secondly, who cares what other people did. If you don't the concept of draft dodging, then don't do it. Or better yet, enlist.

 

[Wooz]

I agree with the people saying that, no matter the reason for the war, draft dodging is far from honorable, and building a monument to people who do it is simply ridiculous.

*Slaps Macaco*

Did you bother to read the whole discussion?

*Slaps Macaco again*

 

[Roshambo]

They'd probably just be replacements in Army units and would slow them down, give away the units position, or find another way to increase the risk to soldiers who are much more experianced.

I doubt this, given that the worst done by those who were drafted and still didn't want to go until they were faced with prison was maybe a bit of hesitation, or they were given the equipment pack and/or radio and guarded. That is how the reluctants were often treated.

Those who fled to Canada just seemed to just want to take themselves out of a really fucked up equasion.

Secondly, who cares what other people did. If you don't the concept of draft dodging, then don't do it. Or better yet, enlist.

Then be ordered to commit atrocities, which the new administration probably brought to light to make the old administration look bad and also take attention from the underhanded things the new administration was doing. Remember, the American people were pissed off at the atrocities of My Lai, therefore Operation Breakfast wasn't in the public eye just yet. Or you could have your ass beaten by angry protestors before you get into the recruiting office.

That is why the Vietnam memorial is a slap in the face to many vets who were in such a position and are still alive today. They weren't "raising freedom" as the memorial was to suggest, they were butchering innocents on orders the govt. would later refuse to admit ever existed, which is what the flag was generally used to symbolize against.

I guess Pol Pot took notes from the US invasion into Cambodia, including the trails of carpet-bombed jungle. When they aren't of any use to you and you want that position, make anyone else not of your force disappear. Or it was "oops, there was a village there? We couldn't tell from carpet-bombing an entire 1/2 mile x 2 miles trail from the B-52"

 

[Tannhauser]

Because Rosh, obviously every soldier in Vietnam was required to kill at least one civilian just because. No matter the reason they ended up in Vietnam. You are making extremely gross generalizations.

A short point because it doesn't need to be a long one.

 

[John Uskglass]

Because Rosh, obviously every soldier in Vietnam was required to kill at least one civilian just because. No matter the reason they ended up in Vietnam. You are making extremely gross generalizations.

A short point because it doesn't need to be a long one.

I hope you liked you're modship, Kotario.

 

[Roshambo]

Because Rosh, obviously every soldier in Vietnam was required to kill at least one civilian just because. No matter the reason they ended up in Vietnam. You are making extremely gross generalizations.

Am I? I only pointed out the atrocities performed under orders, which not only angered Vietnamese that were supposedly on our side, but others that were considered allies. Then add on hushed carpet bombing while atrocities were brought out into public and blamed on the troops who were often ordered to secure areas in such a fashion. I don't claim it to be 100% ordered, but there's obviously a lot more of a massacre of Vietnamese villagers than you realize, and certain kinds of orders do preclude innocent lives. Sometimes entire villages of say...500 people, more or less.

This then brought anger down onto the troops, even those not involved in such actions. Those still at home saw much of this reaction and didn't want to be put in that situation where they would be attacked by their own people for doing something they and others had no legal choice BUT to do.

Hence, some fled to Canada, where they didn't have to fear their own govt. and the rest of their own people. Do you seriously know how hard it is to be a trained killer and have to try to repress instincts and reflexes that were drilled into you, especially in combat situations? Do you know why some Vietnam vet spouses have nearly had their necks broken because of that, and therefore it made continuing with what life the vet could have a living hell, on TOP of injuries they might have sustained? Most of them turned into loners to everyone but other vets from the shit that went on, because they couldn't trust anyone but each other.

I thought we had an intelligent discussion going, but you're the one who had to resort to hyperbole and uh..."gross generalizations".

A short point because it doesn't need to be a long one.

A short point that ignored what I said. I said "many", not "every", although just about "every" soldier had to deal with the dishonesty of the govt through this time even if they weren't involved.

Maybe you need to talk to one of the vets who were beaten when they got back home for being a "baby killer" even though they weren't stationed anywhere near such massacres before you try to dabble in this topic again. I know some who would give you a middle right finger, but it would be metaphorical since they don't HAVE a middle finger on that hand anymore since doctors had to amputate their hand due to the glass from a window they were thrown through. Their job? A yeoman. Someone who shuffled paper. But since he was wearing the uniform...