UBI - Universal Basic Income

[Crni Vuk]

People that work at places like your local gas station? Why would they keep working? They would make more money on UBI than they do working. Instead of working and collecting UBI they would just sit on their ass and draw a paycheck.

Or they would do something else.

I'm tracking that but I am certain some people would quit those jobs because they are shitty jobs. Every person working at those registers wants to die.

And some actually do. I am sure the opioid crisis has some part in to this. Or suicides. Or teenagers which have trouble in school giving a shit about society and blowing everyone's head off. - I am not saying it's the only reason or even the most prominent one but anxiety can really mess with your mind.​

 

[TorontoReign]

Maybe. A lot of maybes.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Maybe. A lot of maybes.

Yes. But I can give that right back to you as well.

I swear why does everyone here think with the UBI all people would just lay back and do nothing all day? And I thought I had a super cynical view on humanity.

*Edit

12th century Toront : Voting their rulers?! Pesants? None of them would work anymore! Freedom isn't for the commoner. This can never work. Humans are not made to step out of their intended roles. ​

 

[TorontoReign]

Yes. But I can give that right back to you as well.

I swear why does everyone here think with the UBI all people would just lay back and do nothing all day? And I thought I had a super cynical view on humanity.​

Because a lot of the people that would benefit from this are losers. I see a lot of people that skate by with the bare minimum because they have 0 ambition. Drug addicts usually. They have promise as human beings but they are mostly concerned with getting high. So add up how many crack and heroin addicts would be getting more money to fund their habits. That would be something easy to tally up. Take the estimated amount of druggies that steal copper just to get high, tally up the monthly payments they would get, then shoot me a number and I will let you know if it is still a good idea.

Let us go with the 21 million from 2015. Just since I pulled it up and know that the number exists. So how much a month are we thinking here? Do the math for me Crni.

 

[DarkCorp]

The math simply won't add up. This is why any UBI would have to be activated as a temporary, disaster response measure, much like Crnis 100 percent automation hypothesis or COVID19.

By itself, human nature makes it practically impossible as those who can abuse it, WILL abuse it. UBI is too oversimplified and only really caters to those who have absolutely nothing. Those with absolutely nothing, and who do not fall into the category below, are by very definition lazy bums.

As others have brought up, there are other solutions that can help people get better and be productive again. The vets Crni speaks of with PTSD, we can have less expensive social programs to help them, like mental health. We can have rehab for the addicts. Job training schools for the less skilled.

Not everything has to be handled with a UBI club when a scalpel can do the trick.

 

[Hassknecht]

The math can add up, but so far even the most honest and realistic approaches still leave 320 billion dollars unaccounted for (in the US). And that's after massive revenue increases and budget cuts in other departments and factoring in economic growth from the very thing they're proposing.
It's gonna be tough to make it work, and the economy better be in full bull-mode swing to pull it off for a longer period of time.

 

[DarkCorp]

The math can add up, but so far even the most honest and realistic approaches still leave 320 billion dollars unaccounted for (in the US). And that's after massive revenue increases and budget cuts in other departments and factoring in economic growth from the very thing they're proposing.
It's gonna be tough to make it work, and the economy better be in full bull-mode swing to pull it off for a longer period of time.

But this what I am saying. How can 320 billion unaccounted for still be considered 'adding up'? Same with cutting a massive amount of other programs to finance it. Even liberal California couldn't pull their statewide universal healthcare off as it would cost the ENTIRETY of the state's yearly budget.

There is a reason why the Coronavirus Relief bill is getting tacked onto the national debt. We will figure it out how to pay it off later as we are in an emergency situation here.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Some say that a large number of the people that lost their job now, might not get them back when this crisis is over due to the fact that many companies will now use the situation to either automatize their work process or cut it in some other way as cost reduction by upgrading their systems in an effort to increase efficiency. So there is that I guess. I think it was Yang which said we might eventually see some changes which could have taken years done in a few months now. The Corona virus could be an accelerator in the automatization process putting a huge strain on the employment market.

Edit :

Many Americans will not have jobs to return to after the coronavirus pandemic ends, according to former US presidential candidate Andrew Yang

Yang : I heard from CEOs of major companies who've been saying not super loudly, but saying privately that many of the people that are on furloughed or are being sent home may not have jobs to come back to.

The fact is a lot of those companies are already automating many of their processes and a lot of the public facing businesses like Mac's and the amusement parks and the restaurants and concerts aren't going to come back in full steam.

So there is that.

And it's not even a full blown recession right now which everyone is saying will come in the next few months.

 

[Hassknecht]

No I didn't. That's your interpretation of it. And you're using engineers as example. I am not disputing that certain professions, particularly in the tech business come with an immense amount of pressure and work load hence why quite a lot of engineers have high wages.

Having to be on the edge in your profession because of rapid changes in technology and standards is something entirely different from being forced in to every job opportunity even if the wage you receive is barely enough to cover the absolute basics of living - in some cases it's not even here enough, as many jobs are subsidized in Germany (Aufstocker).

You're comparing two completely different worlds here. Like do you really want to compare the job situation of people working below the poverty lines with engineers that earn 5 or 6 000 a dollars month? Again the point is not which job is more difficult or requires more skills there are managers out there with 10-12 hour days and high burn out rates.

With an UBI an engineer who's not willing to keep up it anymore could decide to say, you know what I want a different live I am going to change my profession and do something less stressful even if it means a lower income. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people would like to make that choice exactly because they know this kind of stress is making them depressed or leading to burn out or simply not their cup of tea. I know people that have done this. The guy who's leading the charity organisation I am working with pretty much gave up everything in his old job and he made a hell of a lot of money. Thankfully he had many people that supported him trough the rough times, he was at some point even on well fare. With an UBI it would be easier to make that choice - I guess I can only speculate.

Again the point is not remove "consequences" it's about giving more options in your choices. Try to think a bit outside your box here and consider that there are many different ideas and insights to something. There isn't just one route or definition here just because we think there is.

So the freedom of those UBI bohemians is bought with the lack of freedom of those who are stupid enough to work productively.
Engineers can already change their profession, UBI won't change any of that. And with or without UBI, if you go out, you probably won't come back that easily. That's the consequence. Now you'd say, that's not a bad consequence, your life won't be ruined because with the UBI you'll never be poor, but some people actually have ambitions, want to start families and maybe live in a house and not a cramped apartment. So those don't really get to just quit their jobs every once in a while.
And you know what? That's fine, it's their choice. I know it's mine. But don't give me this "ultimate freedom for all" bullshit. That's impossible. Someone has to pay for your freedom.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Engineers can already change their profession, UBI won't change any of that. And with or without UBI,

Exactly. And yet you bring it up as a reason against it ... even though not much would be really changed ... by it ...for the engineer ... But because engineers have to stay on the edge in their profession the UBI is bad for them because someone who's working bellow the minimum wage in his profession now has the option to say "No, I am not going to work under those conditions" ? I am really trying to understand your position here.

Why should anyone be forced in a situation where they have to take every job no matter the conditions? Regardless who it is. Where do we draw the line between work and exploitation? We do we have a minimum wage in Germany but in many low wage professions, like catering, room services, harvest hand the like, the real wage is closer to 3-5 euros per hour?

It's really difficult to understand or follow some arguments in that sense. On one side we all recognize the need of certain work, we recognize that someone has to do them. But at the same time we're also not making sure people are paid a decent wage in some of those jobs. So we recognize the need but we don't argue for higher wages.

I feel this whole discussion has actually less to do with the UBI, particularly as it's not really new.

What it comes down to is what we see as decent living.

 

[Hassknecht]

I'm not really bringing it up as a reason against UBI, I'm bringing it up against your notion of UBI bringing "ultimate freedom". How often do I have to spell it out? I can't make it any more explicit. Your ULTIMATE FREEDOM is bought by the expense of other people's freedom. Those still working in productive fields, aka those actually propping up the entire system, can never be as free as your bohemian dream.
Whatever, it's not like you're actually reading what I write.

 

[Gizmojunk]

[perplexed]... the UBI is bad for them because someone who's working bellow the minimum wage in his profession now has the option to say "No, I am not going to work under those conditions" ?

That option comes in the form of a perpetual free gift; made by permanently shaving off a bit from everyone else (who are likely themselves ineligible). If you try standing in line at the store behind someone who is spending their cash on vice, and using welfare to get their food for free, then you might understand.

Why should anyone be forced in a situation where they have to take every job no matter the conditions?

When an animal is hungry, they eat what food they can find. When a person needs money, they take whatever job they can get; it's temporary. Not every employer can afford (nor finds it worth) paying above a certain amount for specific work. For ANY job, it is the employer who must find it worth paying; else there is no job.

*Why is this part always so hard for non-employers to understand? Employers don't exist to employ, they employ because it's the path of least resistance, and when it becomes too much of a hassle to employ, it stops being worth the trouble, and the job goes away.

...in many low wage professions, like catering, room services, harvest hand the like, the real wage is closer to 3-5 euros per hour?

Many jobs are simply not worth that much. Many of these jobs are part time, and some people work more than one of these jobs for a combined income.

Service industry is a special case. Consider the bellhop. The job is to carry a bag upstairs. Consider the valet; the job is to park a guest's car. Consider the job of taking a drink order.

These jobs pay low wages, but come with the benefit gratuity/tips; this makes the job more valuable than the wage, because the person might make double/triple/quadruple the wage in tips. Some waitstaff might make $300 a night, above their wage,. This isn't random; it depends on the person, their skill, and demeanor. Every customer can leave a tip. If all of the waitstaff suddenly had their official wage doubled, then many of them would lose their opportunity to do the job, because many of those jobs (or their number of hours) would vanish.

 

[TorontoReign]

Btw Biden name dropped this last night. Never let a good crisis go to waste...again.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I'm not really bringing it up as a reason against UBI, I'm bringing it up against your notion of UBI bringing "ultimate freedom". How often do I have to spell it out? I can't make it any more explicit. Your ULTIMATE FREEDOM is bought by the expense of other people's freedom. Those still working in productive fields, aka those actually propping up the entire system, can never be as free as your bohemian dream.
Whatever, it's not like you're actually reading what I write.

I do, so I am asking are those people you're talking about not working right now as well? How is the situation you're describing any different to what we have now?

 

[Hassknecht]

I do, so I am asking are those people you're talking about not working right now as well? How is the situation you're describing any different to what we have now?

... It's not. That's the point. Again. Very. Slowly.
Your "ultimate freedom" only brings freedom to SOME people. It's YOUR freedom, not MINE. You specifically want OTHERS to pay for YOUR ability to live your dreams without any worries. Anyone who wants to have more things in life than a small apartment and the most basic necessities does not have freedom. And that's fine, that's how it is, but don't try to sell this as some sort of universal noble goal that will benefit everyone. It benefits YOU.

 

[Crni Vuk]

... It's not. That's the point. Again. Very. Slowly.
Your "ultimate freedom" only brings freedom to SOME people. It's YOUR freedom, not MINE. You specifically want OTHERS to pay for YOUR ability to live your dreams without any worries. Anyone who wants to have more things in life than a small apartment and the most basic necessities does not have freedom. And that's fine, that's how it is, but don't try to sell this as some sort of universal noble goal that will benefit everyone. It benefits YOU.

Yeah. Sure. You're absolutely right.

I just thought that was so evident that I understood it as some kind of argument or attack - it's not that I don't understand your point it's basically how our current well fare state works anyway so I was simply confused. But engineers are just a minority compared to the overwhelmingly number of non-academic employees. While people with higher income fall in to higher tax brackets, the number of engineers is according to ingenieur.de somewhere between 1,2 and 1,6 million. Statista says the total work force in Germany are 45 million.

And with saying that. We're all part of this society and I think the largest number of people in the work force are not academics even though the numbers are growing. And since not everyone can realistically speaking become an engineer and it will always remain a position that's achievable only for a fraction of the working population the UBI or at the very least a something similar system could benefit the low wage sector. Particularly since unions are loosing more and more ground and leverage. And most jobs are not merely "entry level" jobs, like Nurses, Educators, Vendors, Postman, Construction work all sorts of delivery services, like druck drivers and the like, I know many people which managed to have a comfortable income till their pensions from those occupations in the past but those people are past their 70s. Many of those Jobs saw deteriorating conditions over the last few decades. A higher work load with decreasing wages and cost cutting.

Again, what is the underlying issue we're talking about?

A disappearing middle class, stagnation of wages and increasing costs in living and increase in inequality. We have in Germany a low wage sectors and completely new groups becoming predominant in the population, Aufstocker [working poor receiving top-up benefit in Germany], dispatched labour and yes more people on well fare. Social mobility is becoming an increasingly serious issue in our society and I see not how that problem is actually addressed by any of the political parties right now.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Your "ultimate freedom" only brings freedom to SOME people. It's YOUR freedom, not MINE. You specifically want OTHERS to pay for YOUR ability to live your dreams without any worries. Anyone who wants to have more things in life than a small apartment and the most basic necessities does not have freedom. And that's fine, that's how it is, but don't try to sell this as some sort of universal noble goal that will benefit everyone. It benefits YOU.

Wait, we have to leave the island of Never-neverland and man the fuck up?

Bruh, I haven't had a day off since Jan 1st. Wife got furloughed. Living in tri-state area, so we're going to be fucked for many, many months - thanks NYC! Mortgage, kids, bills yadda yadda woe is poor widdle me. Think I wouldn't rather be at home right now, free to pursue my life-long passion of ripping bong hits and watching Tom & Jerry all day?

Incidentally, did get $3,400 stimulus two days ago.
Direct Deposit.
Mainline that stimulus. aw yeah.
Already put that in a biotech index and it's up 10% already, gonna blow when that vax comes.
It's really not that hard people.

If you try standing in line at the store behind someone who is spending their cash on vice, and using welfare to get their food for free, then you might understand.

Bruh, don't go to my BJs on the first of the month. Ever seen a flatbed full of nothing but processed corn syrup, carbs and food coloring?

 

[TorontoReign]

Wait, we have to leave the island of Never-neverland and man the fuck up?

Bruh, I haven't had a day off since Jan 1st. Wife got furloughed. Living in tri-state area, so we're going to be fucked for many, many months - thanks NYC! Mortgage, kids, bills yadda yadda woe is poor widdle me. Think I wouldn't rather be at home right now, free to pursue my life-long passion of ripping bong hits and watching Tom & Jerry all day?

Incidentally, did get $3,400 stimulus two days ago.
Direct Deposit.
Mainline that stimulus. aw yeah.
Already put that in a biotech index and it's up 10% already, gonna blow when that vax comes.
It's really not that hard people.


Bruh, don't go to my BJs on the first of the month. Ever seen a flatbed full of nothing but processed corn syrup, carbs and food coloring?

I don't know what the fuck a biotech index is besides it being some sort of stock thing or something. Can I mail you large bags of money so you can make me more money?

 

[Crni Vuk]

Bruh, I haven't had a day off since Jan 1st.

May I ask you god sir, what your job is? Just curious.

 

[TorontoReign]

He is a god. The god of Cimmeria.