Ukraine's Yushchenko Declares Victory

[pipboy-x11]

Yes please understand the fact that the hope i`m talking about concerns the Ukrainians in the first place, not the Western World. Their hopes are the important thing here, and the hability of them getting the future they want, and that they deserve after fighting the powerfull and the corrupt on the streets. Now the pro Russian westerners need their fair end of the bargain too, but with diferent rules, not the Donetsk Clan rules.

Do you understand that those "clans" and "the powerful and the corrupt " have gained their power during exactly the same show which took place in Ukraine about 13 years ago? I understand why it was so many young people on the streets this time - they don't seem to remember not so distant past of their country. Same slogans, same rhetorics, just different colors.

And Russia had just the same story about the same time - tanks on the streets, barricades, "a great victory for democracy" - which turned out to be a great victory for Yeltsin and his clan. But even then, when a tight clan controlled the whole TV and newspapers, the western countries praised Yeltsin government as "democrats", while Russia slowly stagnated and starved to death. Now, when the situation here is much better in all aspects (I don't need a TV to see that), Russia is viewed as "totalitarian" and whatever else. Kind of sickening, but I'm not surprised.

 

[The Commissar]

I understand why it was so many young people on the streets this time - they don't seem to remember not so distant past of their country. Same slogans, same rhetorics, just different colors.

Very well said! It is impossible to truly say things wont be different this time, but wishing wont make it so. Too many people have started believing their own propaganda. The differences are, like you said, just superficial. A change of colors, a change of faces (for some, literally) and people just assume its going to be different then before. Again, thats not to say it wont be different, but don't just blindly believe it will be.

Now, when the situation here is much better in all aspects (I don't need a TV to see that), Russia is viewed as "totalitarian" and whatever else. Kind of sickening, but I'm not surprised.

Its better in some ways, worse in others. I would not say its "totalitarian" (yet) but the practice of true democratic change is not done with the kind regularity I would be happy with. The West has always had a skewed image of Russia though, we are one of their convenient boogiemen.

However, even if the Western views are mostly wrong, they arn't Entirely wrong. Putin has been having his way with the constitution for a long while now. I don't think hes going to get tired anytime soon either. Even his statement that he would not run for a 3rd term made it sound more like he was doing everyone a favor because he's a nice guy, instead of following the law (which limits him to two terms) Alot of places have been pretty well cowed by him and his politics.

Luckily there are many examples of People not submitting to pressure and government strong arm tactics. Things like the demonstrations in Cherkessk show that many people will not just sit by and wait for the Government to fix something it wanted broken in the first place. It is ironic indeed that the Northern Caucases are such a bastion of "Democracy" while places more north tend to give simple lip service to the ideas of Freedom and Democratic change.

**Edit**

Merry Christmas

 

[Briosafreak]

Do you understand that those "clans" and "the powerful and the corrupt " have gained their power during exactly the same show which took place in Ukraine about 13 years ago? I understand why it was so many young people on the streets this time - they don't seem to remember not so distant past of their country. Same slogans, same rhetorics, just different colors.

I saw young and old people, socialist and liberals, the poor and the get-by on the streets actually. And whenever mass demonstrations and peacefull revolutions occurr there is always the possibility of an "Animal Farm" result, that´s why i placed my thoughts on the field of hope; just because the Russians are failing to achieve a full edge democracy doesn`t mean others can`t get there.

And Russia had just the same story about the same time - tanks on the streets, barricades, "a great victory for democracy" - which turned out to be a great victory for Yeltsin and his clan.

Yeah, there wasn`t enough democratic culture, too many old aparatchycks and KGB members got hold of the state and the economy, i agree. Still the dices were rolling, anything could happen at the time.

But even then, when a tight clan controlled the whole TV and newspapers, the western countries praised Yeltsin government as "democrats", while Russia slowly stagnated and starved to death.

Wait a second, either you´re too young to remeber or you got a bit confused, but in the Yeltsin years there were privately owned and independent TVs and a fair amount of freedom of the press, wich has been declining in the Putin years. Yeltsin was a drunk and a scoundrel but let`s not go over the top with selective memories.

Now, when the situation here is much better in all aspects (I don't need a TV to see that), Russia is viewed as "totalitarian" and whatever else. Kind of sickening, but I'm not surprised.

This is not sickening, it`s quite logic. Europeans, mainly the Germans paid for your democratization process, kept silent for years and years in and forgave the corruption, the nepotism, and just asked that some democracy and the baltic states to be left in peace in exchange. But that is tiresome and finally in Europe the leaders are understanding that Russia is heading for an authoritarian state with a president that wants to persue a neo colonial policy in the region thinking that it´s his backyard and he doesn´t have to keep at least the apearances of having a liberal democratic regime, poisoning the adversaries or sending them to jail while taking over the media with totalitarian policies (i didn`t thought one could be worse than Berlusconi on that but Putin showed how wrong i was) and have finally decided that there are some limits. Seems logical enough, a shame that they still aren´t ready to go on Uzbekhistan and Turkemenistan as they are with Ukraine and Georgia, hope that changes in time, the americans are the most to blame for about that though.

And for the Russian victimization, both of you seriously give me a brake here. The French are trying to make a strategic triangle with the Russian and the Chinese for years , trhe Germans comited their diplomacy in helping out Russia since the beggining, the EU has helped in whatever they can, the OSCE has been more than leniant with Russia. Victimization is always a good way of not seeing the problems head to head and having to be forced to deal with them.

And yeah the urban Russia is living better, but so the Chileans over Pinochet or the Chinese midlle-class in China, but if that´s everything you aspire than you really deserve an FSB rule regime.

I kind of prefer to live with more money than what i had during the totalitarian regime in my country AND more democracy and rule of law, but hey, if you`re happy with the status quo that´s ok, it`s your future and you decide what to do with it (or maybe you are happy others are deciding it for you) but don´t get surprised if people goes against it when you try to export the model to your neighbours and rig elections just because it´s better for Putins neo-colonial stance.

Again things can go wrong of course, but it´s always worth to fight for ones future, for democracy and self ruling, even if that goes against the short term interests of a powerfull neighbour.

 

[PsychoSniper]

I wish the Ukranians luck in getting their country set up well.

Ive led a very lucky life here in the heart of freedom, and reading threds such as these make me realize just how lucky I am.

 

[The Commissar]

I didn't say Russia was a victem of anyone. I said the views are skewed. You can't deny that alot (I won't say most because I can't prove it, but ALOT) of people do not have accurate or informed views about Russia in the west. Their views are based on old feelings of fear and hate (Especially in the United States) Obviously not EVERYONE is stuck with this bias, but too many people arn't interested in educating themselves. So don't say "Give me a break". There is a delberate ignorance by the Western world with regards to Russia.

No one (I don't think any Russian) if they could, would say that Putin has been good for the Federation. Many would even agree he has been bad for it! Of course, you can point to the good things, but almost every leader will have good things happen when they are in control. The exchanges of some level of prosperity (And even that is a hoax, it really isn't more prosperous) for the natural freedoms (Like freedom of speech, the press, many others) is not a good one! But too many people sit by, only making a little bit of noise but not doing anything.

Like the examples I gave before, the Northern Caucases (Is my regional loyalty showing yet?)
have consistantly shown they will not take bullshitting from Putin or anyone he hand picks to control them. Would that the same feelings of anger and determination would be seen on a similierly large scale further north. Places like Moscow and St Petersburg should be the places where political freedom reigns and great minds work towards a brighter future. Instead attempts at true democracy are being practiced on the edge, in its raw and most rough form, and against the wishes of the government. Of course its not always successful, but you can count on people trying and not sitting around, or just pretending to try.

If we could see feelings and actions like that up north, then maybe Russia would be in for a real change for the better. As it is, if no one is willing to risk everything for freedom, then they arn't going to get it.

 

[Briosafreak]

Or just many small risks, let´s see what time brings us.

The skewed vision isn`t just of Russia, and it happens in Russia towards the west too. Actually all the emigration that is still happening in the region to pretty much everywhere, specially Europe can help out a bit, they can discover how bastards the european employers are but how many good things happen in more high intensity democracies. And yes that "they aren´t fair" speech is victimization, and i really think it won`t help, but ok, happy orthodox Christhmas anyway. The christhmas parties they showed on my country TV, from imigrants mainly from the Ukraine and Russia were really nice, the amount of hot women that came from the region is wonderfull and the kids are unbeatable in maths, they are so much better in anything with numbers that is almost scary (my kid is good too, so he`s not worried with the competition )

 

[pipboy-x11]

Yeah, there wasn`t enough democratic culture, too many old aparatchycks and KGB members got hold of the state and the economy, i agree. Still the dices were rolling, anything could happen at the time.

You think that a couple of former heads of the same "corrupted government" you're fighting now are any different from "aparatchycks and KGB members"? Get real.

Democracy is not made in elections. When people stand up for their rights on their own - it's a democracy. When they are guided by two groups of politicians in a fight "Gazprom vs Timoshenko - who will control the gas pipe", it's a manipulation. Why do you think Chernomyrdin, the former Gazprom head, is an embassador in Ukraine for many years? It's that simple. But the problem is not that - most of powerful clans in any country are criminal in their deep roots (take a look at the history of Kennedy family for example). The big difference is how people of the country defend their rights in their everyday life. Both Ukraine and Russia have small, subtle changes here - but still too small. But if you think that you can live with corrupted government and devastated economy one day and the next day after elections you wake up in a free prospering country, you need to put down your crack pipe. Ukraine will have a better life than it currently does, I hope so - but don't let yourself be fooled, those elections had nothing to do with that.

Wait a second, either you´re too young to remeber or you got a bit confused, but in the Yeltsin years there were privately owned and independent TVs and a fair amount of freedom of the press, wich has been declining in the Putin years. Yeltsin was a drunk and a scoundrel but let`s not go over the top with selective memories.

Those "independent TVs" were owned by Gusinsky and Berezovsky - the same persons who "privately owned" the Yeltsin government. Do you remember how many well-known journalists were simply killed at that time without an investigation? Do you remember tanks and troops storming the Parliament building? Oh, something is wrong with the freedom of press now? I mean, with the freedom of press which cries out loud that they have no freedom for at least 4 years already? What exactly they are not allowed to talk about?

And for the Russian victimization, both of you seriously give me a brake here.

You don't need an additional brake, all you need is to wipe you windscreen The West itself was fooled by "democratic" rhetorics of some of our leaders first and then, when they lost their positions, they've started to repeat the same mantra about being suppressed by evil totalitarian regime There are quite a lot of newspapers here which are just suspicious to any government action (which is a good thing), but many (if not most of) "interviews from Russia" reprinted in the western press just seem to be from the horror stories book by Berezovsky, who promised in 2000 that Putin will not keep his place for more than a couple of years and seems to be behind of the schedule. Look, horror stories sale quite well. Why do you think every second Hollywood action movie features "Russian mafia"?

Again things can go wrong of course, but it´s always worth to fight for ones future, for democracy and self ruling, even if that goes against the short term interests of a powerfull neighbour.

Trust me, this is not the first time I hear this story about "going against the powerful neighbor" from the Ukraine First time it was in 1991 - Ukraine then was a better place for living compared to Russia, I even considered moving there. You probably know the rest of the story.

Political elections do not choose leaders of society. Rather, they are an exercise in which groups of people choose individuals who will assist them in looting other groups of individuals.
William Anderson

 

[pipboy-x11]

Ive led a very lucky life here in the heart of freedom, and reading threds such as these make me realize just how lucky I am.

I had to travel a lot and live in different places before I realized that my country is the best for me, so you are also lucky since you've saved quite a handful of money before making the same conclusion

 

[Briosafreak]

You think that a couple of former heads of the same "corrupted government" you're fighting now are any different from "aparatchycks and KGB members"? Get real.

Democracy is not made in elections. When people stand up for their rights on their own - it's a democracy. When they are guided by two groups of politicians in a fight "Gazprom vs Timoshenko - who will control the gas pipe", it's a manipulation. Why do you think Chernomyrdin, the former Gazprom head, is an embassador in Ukraine for many years? It's that simple. But the problem is not that - most of powerful clans in any country are criminal in their deep roots (take a look at the history of Kennedy family for example). The big difference is how people of the country defend their rights in their everyday life.

One doesn´t take a single example and makes generalizations to try to force a point. If the father of Kennedy had long time ties with the mob, the sons fought the mob, so that example doesn´t work, and to talk about powerfull clans taking over power everywhere you need to find many examples, and you won`t find them except for Italy. This is a good example on the twisted views that occur from Russia regarding the West, as it happens in the West when looking at East as i was saying to Lauren.

So even disregarding your lack of empirical support i still say that if you think that Europe lost the paciente with Putin right now because of the gas pipe think again, it could gain in a much more cheaper way by just accepting the status quo. The resource wars in all of the region and particularly in the Caspian Sea are fundamental to understand everything that occurs in the entire region, but in this case we´re dealing in pure politics, and Europe chose to support those that on the side of" When people stand up for their rights on their own - it's a democracy" stance that you too seem to accept. Call it a deterrent for future plans, mix it with a genuine feeling of caring about what happens about democracy in europe in our times, join some pressure from the public opinion, wich is important in more democratic countries, and you´ll see that for Europe this isn`t about Clan fights, but about saying this is too much for the FSB and their Ukrainian lackeys.

For a group to rig an election and to wait that everyone stays put when their own people are on the streets was a bit too much. Ukraine is still Europe, as Russia is in the maps, i wish it could be more in the soul of their leaders.

Both Ukraine and Russia have small, subtle changes here - but still too small. But if you think that you can live with corrupted government and devastated economy one day and the next day after elections you wake up in a free prospering country, you need to put down your crack pipe. Ukraine will have a better life than it currently does, I hope so - but don't let yourself be fooled, those elections had nothing to do with that.

And you should put away your bottle of Vodka because i never said it would be easy, it`s never easy, but seeing how Bielorus and the Donetsk Clan regime Ukrain are now, you bet this election is important to at least give some hope and to see if new doors are open and new opportunities explored. My country got out of a 40 years old non democratic regime and things went sour for quite some time, but it proved that democratization is possible and works. Now if you on the other hand think that things could go better with rigged elections and criminal control of the state and the media than you´re bound to have some surprises in the future.

Those "independent TVs" were owned by Gusinsky and Berezovsky - the same persons who "privately owned" the Yeltsin government. Do you remember how many well-known journalists were simply killed at that time without an investigation?

Very true, and that`s why the way the international correspondents that went back last year to Russia and came to talk in a meeting i once went gave me the creeps, they really thought things couldn`t get worse and were appaled how in the TV and Radio particularly, but also in many incidents in the writing press things were worse now. Nothing Mitrokhin hadn´t warned a few years ago, come to think about it.

Do you remember tanks and troops storming the Parliament building? Oh, something is wrong with the freedom of press now? I mean, with the freedom of press which cries out loud that they have no freedom for at least 4 years already? What exactly they are not allowed to talk about?

Hmmmm try this for a more balanced perspective than of the several sources i have, and then tell me everything is a bed of roses again
http://www.freemedia.at/wpfr/Europe/russia.htm
http://www.freemedia.at/r_wl_russia.htm

And for more interesting views on media, Europe and Russia
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/24/russia9705.htm

How many are starting to see what is really going on
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0921/p01s03-woeu.html

And how is the freedom of the press in Russia ranked in comparision with other countries
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715

You don't need an additional brake, all you need is to wipe you windscreen The West itself was fooled by "democratic" rhetorics of some of our leaders first and then, when they lost their positions, they've started to repeat the same mantra about being suppressed by evil totalitarian regime There are quite a lot of newspapers here which are just suspicious to any government action (which is a good thing), but many (if not most of) "interviews from Russia" reprinted in the western press just seem to be from the horror stories book by Berezovsky, who promised in 2000 that Putin will not keep his place for more than a couple of years and seems to be behind of the schedule. Look, horror stories sale quite well. Why do you think every second Hollywood action movie features "Russian mafia"?

Oh yeah, the Russian Mafia is a Hollywood invenction, and all that comes from Russia in the press i read are horror stories made by creative writers. Or maybe you do have those problems that are portrayed in the western media at the same time of some economic recovery? What do you think it is? Are the western media outlets just anti russian propaganda machines? Or maybe that´s the paranoia Lauren was talking about?

Trust me, this is not the first time I hear this story about "going against the powerful neighbor" from the Ukraine First time it was in 1991 - Ukraine then was a better place for living compared to Russia, I even considered moving there. You probably know the rest of the story.

Yeah and you´ll hear that story many times, in other places too, since Putin doesn´t do a thing to reassure Russia neighbours of his "good intentions" . And thanks for agreeing that the Ukrainians couldn´t go worse than they are now with the Donetsk Clan, since Ukrain is as bad as it is some changes can only be welcomed right?

Political elections do not choose leaders of society. Rather, they are an exercise in which groups of people choose individuals who will assist them in looting other groups of individuals.
William Anderson

Ok then i like this game

"We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution"
-- Abraham Lincoln (debating Stephen Douglas), 1858

"If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect wood and assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea."
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary."
Niebuhr, Reinhold

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Winston Churchill quotes

"Each time a person stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, these ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance." Robert F. Kennedy

"...we must think and act not only for the moment but for our time. I am reminded of the story of the great French Marshal Lyautey, who once asked his gardener to plant a tree. The gardener objected that the tree was slow-growing and would not reach maturity for a hundred years. The Marshal replied, 'In that case, there is no time to lose, plant it this afternoon.'"
President Kennedy

And so on

 

[pipboy-x11]

Hmmmm try this for a more balanced perspective than of the several sources i have, and then tell me everything is a bed of roses again

You could probably try watching our TV, reading various russian newspapers and internet sites instead of reading "reviews". Do you read reviews *instead* of playing games too? You can find a lot of opinions on any subject, and everything you can find in the links you've given me was already discussed in the local media. So what? What are we talking about, after all?

Now if you on the other hand think that things could go better with rigged elections and criminal control of the state and the media than you´re bound to have some surprises in the future.

Where did I say THAT? I've said that the childish ecstasy over the "great victory for democracy" shows that those experiencing it need a serious reality check. But you probably won't understand anyway.

Oh, another one.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.
Winston Churchill

I probably need to save myself from such a bad influence

 

[The Commissar]

Oh the Paranoid biases exist on BOTH sides, make no mistake. Sorry if I made it sound like just the West demonizes things in Russia. Putin has really enjoyed cultivating the image of Russia against the world. It keeps people on edge and that helps him get away with alot.

Also, I'm not sure if Pip here is just a little excited (It is New Years break still, he may be a little drunk by now) or what, but I think his idea of political freedom is a bit off. The control over the media is very good and thats just the begining. Hes been kicking various political parties around, arresting members and giving them outrageous prison sentences. Not to mention removing the elections of Governors so he can hand pick who he wants. Do you really believe the bullshitting about that being a way to protect the people from terrorism?

I'm sorry if you are a Putin supporter, I don't want to offend you, but you have to be blind not to see how he has been ravaging the country and isolating it from the rest of the world. Some things are better then they were before, some are much much worse. Of course, I don't know where you are coming from, but I am assuming its not near the Caucases like me. Just from living there I have a whole other set of complaints against the Russian leadership and the Western world who watches in willful silence as we bleed and die, then has the gall to say nothing is wrong, if they even acknowledge the question at all. It took hundreds of children being murdered in their own school to make anyone look twice, but the attention that brought has all but faded and the daily bloodshed is ignored at large by everyone. Little wonder people there are paranoid and feel like its them against the world.

That the Western world points to places like Georgia as shining examples of Democracy is just insult added to injury. Of course democratic change is good, but the "neo colonialsim" of Georgia seems to go unchallenged by the West (I could be wrong, and I hope Briosa will show me if I am, but I havn't seen it). I thought with the election of Saakashvili things would get better. Then I saw what he did to Ajara and how the horrors on the border with North Ossetia continue, only slowing down a little. Things arn't really different, but no one seems to notice.

 

[Briosafreak]

I won`t try to convince you of anything regarding Georgia Lauren, my stand about what is going on is quite limited in sources, mostly the raports from International Organizations and think tanks like these
and without a large number of sources, with the ever so important ones from the ground i can`t say your view is wrong or not.

And pipboy-x11 if you think that all it takes is to read russian media to have an idea of what is going on there you`re a lot more naive than i thought. If all we needed was the perception of what is in front of our eyes without a critical view and the understanding of diferent standpoints we would still be thinking the earth is flat...

For a more interesting and rigorous view on the process that lead Putin from turning a courageous move against the oligarchs and the greedy foreigners to a cruzade against democracy and how the rise of the siloviky friendly authoritarian regime occured i strongly suggest "Putin`s Power Grab" by Marshall Goldman from the November/December 2004 Issue of Foreign affairs.

 

[pipboy-x11]

And pipboy-x11 if you think that all it takes is to read russian media to have an idea of what is going on there you`re a lot more naive than i thought.

If you understand my words "you need to read the russian media to get an idea what that media really is" in the way you've described, you are, sorry, more stupid than I thought. Just like FOX News and CNN are not the only source of wisdom in the US, a couple of government TV channels here is not the only source of information either.

For a more interesting and rigorous view on the process that lead Putin from turning a courageous move against the oligarchs and the greedy foreigners to a cruzade against democracy and how the rise of the siloviky friendly authoritarian regime occured i strongly suggest "Putin`s Power Grab" by Marshall Goldman from the November/December 2004 Issue of Foreign affairs.

Gosh, now that Khodorkovsky case... Look, this whole business stinks a lot, and it's just hard to get a clear picture, which side of it stinks more. I personally, don't trust ANYONE in this affair, so I didn't make any judgement - from my POV they all are lying more or less. But if you're going to make your judgement based only on articles that spread crap like this:

virtually every Russian was issued a voucher good for shares in a soon-to-be-private enterprise

...you're - guess what? - "a lot more naive than i thought". The author either doesn't have a slightest idea of what was going on during early 1990s, or just tries to show how "democratic" and "progressive" Russia was during that time and how bad that it's turning away from the Great Road to Democracy now. lol. There is a lawsuit pending in the Texas court "Yukos vs. Russian government", it's much easier to win if the defendant is a "bad guy" in the press. And that:

After all, did the United States not once have its own robber barons, who, despite early roughhouse tactics, became the leaders of some of the country's most prominent corporations and the benefactors of its most respected charities and foundations?

Oh, wait - it all took place in those times when US economics was on raising during early years. Those barons didn't become leaders of "most prominent corporations", foundations and so on during years of economical depression. One should better look at years of the Great Depression - how FDR acted then. He didn't put oligarchs to jail but still the resistance was pretty tough - look at 1933, check what Du Pont and J.P. Morgan did at this time. And most importantly - why they did it.

Man, your "anti-totalitarian" position makes you think that you're cool and you "know the truth". Oh, it's so easy to look like a democrat by bashing "totalitarian regime of Putin", comparing him to Hitler, Saddam or whoever else (like some newspapers both here and in the West). Do you seriously consider that I didn't read the sources you've proudly quoted here a long time ago, and that my english is reserved for the Fallout and NMA only? A possible difference between us is that I'm trying to *analyze* everything I read, not just taking the position I consider democratic, choosing the sources I consider democratic and blindly believing them after that. Check, for instance, that "Press Freedom Index" you seem to like so much - Estonia is on the 11th place, rated 10 positions higher than the USA. Now, recently estonian government has closed the Orsent channel - they used more than 10% of their air time for russian language (the point itself is quite funny, but it's their country). But according to the Orsent's director, the reasons were purely political - the company opposed neo-nazi movements, they got their share of phone threats after some of their broadcasts. Go figure. Now, is the case about 4 CBS employees getting fired over a faulty story about G.W.Bush is a sign of a "totalitarism" in the US? Get real.

Well, let's get back to Russia. I have strong reasons to believe that the current situation with TV has mostly economical, not political, roots. TV business in Russia now is simply not profitable enough to have really *independent* TV companies. Gusinsky used NTV as a tool to extort money from Yeltsin government, now the government uses TV as a propaganda tool. Until one can just make an investment in a TV company and get a profit, the whole system will *not* work. There are some things in the current situation I strongly dislike, but I can't diagnose the current trend as being "totalitarian". Even if some people have a headache before the death doesn't mean that if you have a headache, you gonna die soon. Things are still pretty tough here, but not in the way western media is trying to describe. Weak economics, an insane level of corruption - those are the real problems of todays Russia. But I don't buy the stories about Russia moving to a totalitarian state - it's always possible, in any country, and we should be aware of it. There is just no reason to panic and spread a biased unchecked information.

 

[Briosafreak]

If you understand my words "you need to read the russian media to get an idea what that media really is" in the way you've described, you are, sorry, more stupid than I thought. Just like FOX News and CNN are not the only source of wisdom in the US, a couple of government TV channels here is not the only source of information either.

Oh i see, didn`t you write this previously?

You could probably try watching our TV, reading various russian newspapers and internet sites instead of reading "reviews".

Yep you did. So who`s stupid now?

...you're - guess what? - "a lot more naive than i thought". The author either

Oh so i`m naive for NOT writing what is on that article, i see. My idea of giving diferent views on the issues at hand is indeed a bit complicated for you, but not all of us were blessed with a functioning brain, i can see you`re "special", ok then,

Man, your "anti-totalitarian" position makes you think that you're cool and you "know the truth". Oh, it's so easy to look like a democrat by bashing "totalitarian regime of Putin", comparing him to Hitler, Saddam or whoever else (like some newspapers both here and in the West).

Oh yeah, it`s much cooler to scrap any source that shows scepticism about Putin because it doesn´t reenforce your views. It`s much cooler to scrap democracy altogether , it`s really a pain having to deal with people that diferent views isn`t it? And it´s much easier to put comparisisons in my mouth that i never did because of you not wanting to hear what i`me saying. What a dumbfuck you are.

Do you seriously consider that I didn't read the sources you've proudly quoted here a long time ago, and that my english is reserved for the Fallout and NMA only?

Yes given the fact you wrote this:

You could probably try watching our TV, reading various russian newspapers and internet sites instead of reading "reviews". Do you read reviews *instead* of playing games too? You can find a lot of opinions on any subject, and everything you can find in the links you've given me was already discussed in the local media.

After i`ve showed you how local media alone isn`t enough you now decide to backtrack, that`s intelectually dishonest but who cares as long as you feel your precious pro Putin dogmas reinforced right? The problem here is how many of the current Russian politics use and abuse of straw man arguments and attempts to dilute any view contrary to their interests in the same way you`re trying to do, wich by the "quality" of your posts really shows how much better any neighbouring country will be away from Russia and their poor attempts of propaganda. Poor for those with a critical eye and the need to formulate some critical reasoning of the events of course, not for those with a Putin shaped dick inside their mouths. You`re still a pathetic dumbfuck by the way.

A possible difference between us is that I'm trying to *analyze* everything I read, not just taking the position I consider democratic, choosing the sources I consider democratic and blindly believing them after that. Check, for instance, that "Press Freedom Index" you seem to like so much - Estonia is on the 11th place, rated 10 positions higher than the USA. Now, recently estonian government has closed the Orsent channel - they used more than 10% of their air time for russian language (the point itself is quite funny, but it's their country). But according to the Orsent's director, the reasons were purely political - the company opposed neo-nazi movements, they got their share of phone threats after some of their broadcasts. Go figure. Now, is the case about 4 CBS employees getting fired over a faulty story about G.W.Bush is a sign of a "totalitarism" in the US? Get real.

You`re just trying to reinforce your views, not analysing the events kid, that´s what i do for a living. For any analysis to be rigoreous you need to compare the empirical data, and comparing the list of deaths, kidnapings and state intervenction against free press in Russia that i gave you, wich even tries to show the positive moves too, and put it against a couple of exceptions to the rule isn`t analysis, but stupidity. And i never freaking said everything was rosy in the west, we have our problems as i many times have discussed in the past here, but it really is pathetic that to try to divert the attention from the Russian problems, wich were in the core of this discussion, you make such a feeble attempt to wrongly compare data that is so much against your argument. You are the one that chose to blindly believe whatever propaganda crap you hear from the Kremlin, so get down from your high horse and if you can´t take a mature discussion go and play games instead.

Or light some candles to your beloved aprentice of Andropov, i don`t care, in here you won´t be able to get away with the tradicional victimization speech, now the blame of everything is on foreign media for you, in the past others blamed the Jews or the capitalists, it´s a Russian obcession, from the less intelectually gifted Russians or the oportunists from the past and present of course, i just feel bad for those that aren`t like that . Just don´t try to say it`s unbiased analysis. The first step to deal with a problem is to face it, if you don´t think you`re in trouble than do nothing, just don`t expect the others to act like sheep too if that`s what you expect from people used to say what`s in their minds after analysing the available data and all of the sources, not just the ones that are simpathetic to ones standpoint.

You`re still dumb by the way.

 

[The Commissar]

in here you won´t be able to get away with the tradicional victimization speech, now the blame of everything is on foreign media for you, in the past others blamed the Jews or the capitalists, it´s a Russian obcession, from the less intelectually gifted Russians or the oportunists from the past and present of course, i just feel bad for those that aren`t like that .

Everyone has always had someone else to lay blame on, if you think thats a uniquely Russian occurence you are sadly mistaken. However, just because the end result is blameshifting, does not mean there isn't truth in the complaints. I'm sorry, but I've lived in the United States for nearly half a decade (which isn't that long, compared to others I'm sure) There really is a bias. I would not say it just to validate my own thoughts, because I didn't always realize (or care) what people thought about Russia when I was growing up. I was busy with more important things, like throwing rocks at my older brothers.

When I first moved here I noticed right away that people looked at me funny when they found out where I was from. Lots of people didn't care, or were actually interested or excited about it, but just as many felt suspicion. A suspicion they didn't even know they had, and it tainted their attitude towards me. Some will say "Well that is just stupid Americans, they hate everyone" but its not really true.

I watch and read the news all the time, and from all over the world. I've found usually its just plain wrong (or horribly biased) when it comes to giving information about Russia (and other countries in the area). Not always, but often. Usually it skips the details that form the core of the information for me. I only know this because of personal experience and actually knowing people who know whats going on, otherwise I wouldn't really notice. I have to assume that because the media I see is so wrong on issues I know about, they are biased on other things too (That I don't know enough about to see they are). Russian news services are not blameless in this either! There will always be some places that provide good news and information (on both 'sides'), but I think they are very rare indeed. Pipboy talks about a skeptisism for everything, and I agree with that.

The problem comes when people look at the bias as the ONLY thing wrong, or use it to divert attention away from bigger problems. Thats when it becomes victemization, and thats when its not acceptable. I've said it before, many times, I'm saying it again. There is a clear slanting against Russia by alot of Western sources (again, NOT all). HOWEVER, There is an equal slanting in Russia also. Maybe even greater, because Putin needs people to feel that way. Also, just like with proof of the biases being there in the West, those biases are not totally unfounded. Many of the things they say (although biased and often wrong, with missing facts) still manage to make a point that could have been made WITHOUT the biasing and missing facts (although slightly harder).

I don't know what kind of information is available to you Briosa, and I can only speak from my own experiences, but I've found hardly any one, two, or even three sources can present an accurate picture of whats going on, about anything. I don't work analyzing data (which you do? I'm not 100% sure but I think thats what you said) So you probably have more experience with this then me. I just know that, of all the sources I have access to, both direct, and secondary, all of them have their biases and its very easy to fall into the trap of just following along with them.

So please remember, while alot of Russians will claim "Western bias" as a sort of explanation for everything bad going on in Russia (And pipboy listed two of the huge things, massive corruption, on so many levels, and the economy) there are plenty who will point and say "Western Bias, yes, but here also." Its a problem that goes both ways, and pointing it out is not victemization.

 

[pipboy-x11]

It`s much cooler to scrap democracy altogether , it`s really a pain having to deal with people that diferent views isn`t it?

Oh, and I hear that from *your* mouth, right?

And it´s much easier to put comparisisons in my mouth that i never did because of you not wanting to hear what i`me saying. What a dumbfuck you are.
...
You`re still dumb by the way.

Oh my GAWD! What a pain!!!

(Yawns)

 

[Briosafreak]

Everyone has always had someone else to lay blame on, if you think thats a uniquely Russian occurence you are sadly mistaken.

Wait just a second , i was stating that the pipboy imbecile was trying to blame foreign media following something that has historically happened a lot in the Czar Russia, the soviet Union and The Federation now, wich is to find escape goats for every problem that happens, particularly foreigners, but that could happen against Jews or people from the North, or whatever, since he`s Russian and we were talking about Russia. The pass the blame game and distortion of what is going on isn`t something i like a lot, but i never said that it´s a unique trait of Russia, i don`t understand why you are actually asking that, it´s not like i ever said those things weren´t universal, just that there is a quite efective Russian way to do it, with many historical examples, as pipboy was ilustrating in his own "special" way. Context Comissar lauren, context is important ok?

The rest of the post was well written, but showed that you reached that point when the patriotic sentiments start to cloud things a bit, because i really can`t see why you think for a second that i said that just the Russian media is biased or distorts things:

The skewed vision isn`t just of Russia, and it happens in Russia towards the west too.

The keyword here is TOO. See why you`re replying as i am thinking things that weren`t in my mind at all? I can only see that post as somesolidarity with the countryman thing, or else you`re not reading my posts. If i ever said that only western media counts as source i wouldn`t have said

I won`t try to convince you of anything regarding Georgia Lauren, my stand about what is going on is quite limited in sources, mostly the raports from International Organizations and think tanks like these
and without a large number of sources, with the ever so important ones from the ground i can`t say your view is wrong or not.

or

Hmmmm try this for a more balanced perspective than of the several sources i have, and then tell me everything is a bed of roses again
http://www.freemedia.at/wpfr/Europe/russia.htm
http://www.freemedia.at/r_wl_russia.htm

And for more interesting views on media, Europe and Russia
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/24/russia9705.htm

How many are starting to see what is really going on
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0921/p01s03-woeu.html

And how is the freedom of the press in Russia ranked in comparision with other countries
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715

These were examples of several types of sources, and to get to those results on the studies there`s a need for Russian help too. And we´ve debated media in America and Europe before, was i some naive idealist then? So since it was the imbecile that started to confuse everything, i`ll take that either you just read his posts, wich wouldn´t be nice, or had that nacional solidarity thing i`ve talked before, and that`s excusable, many of us have those episodes sometimes, no biggie.

Edit: forgot about this too

And i never freaking said everything was rosy in the west,

Is it more clear to you now what i really think Lauren?

 

[The Commissar]

you reached that point when the patriotic sentiments start to cloud things a bit

Surprise surprise! You know what a commissar's job is, right?

But I think you are right, I read your post just twice, and the second time I was too agitated to understand it. I don't like being called anyones victem and you had made that reference more then twice. Sorry about that, I failed to step back and see things in context.
My apologies.

 

[pipboy-x11]

Wait just a second , i was stating that the pipboy imbecile was trying to blame foreign media following something that has historically happened a lot in the Czar Russia, the soviet Union and The Federation now, wich is to find escape goats for every problem that happens, particularly foreigners, but that could happen against Jews or people from the North, or whatever, since he`s Russian and we were talking about Russia.

No, Einstein, we were talking about Ukraine and a completely unfounded ecstasy about "democratic" elections, high hopes etc - something that has happened several times already in Russia, Georgia, Ukraine (Kuchma had been posed as a "great savior" just several years ago) and then *someone* has changed topics and started blaming russian media and calling a person with different views "imbecile", "dumbfuck" and whatever.

But I don't blame you, dude - what else should I expect from an orange fanboy?

 

[Briosafreak]

Actually you started with the crack jokes and the "you`re stupid" remarks, therefore becoming a target . You started with the arguments about the media and the simplification on how Ukraine and Russia are seen in the west also, so i really don´t see why you are complaining now. If you can´t take the heat don´t post, and if you do post don`t whine. I`m not an orange fanboy, but it´s easy to label everyone that has a diferent aproach to these issues like that, in an attempt to get the higher ground again. It`s so intelectually dishonest as to say that you were trying to do any kind of rigoreous analisys, but it`s a patern you just can`t avoid, that`s ok.