US plans to attack Iran?

welsh

Junkmaster
So the next war in the Gulf?

Looks like a big hit!

US Plans Envision Broad Attack on Iran: Analyst
Reuters

Friday 19 January 2007

Washington - U.S. contingency planning for military action against Iran's nuclear program goes beyond limited strikes and would effectively unleash a war against the country, a former U.S. intelligence analyst said on Friday.

"I've seen some of the planning ... You're not talking about a surgical strike," said Wayne White, who was a top Middle East analyst for the State Department's bureau of intelligence and research until March 2005.

"You're talking about a war against Iran" that likely would destabilize the Middle East for years, White told the Middle East Policy Council, a Washington think tank.

When a former US intelligence analysts says, "big war coming" best to consider this realistically.

"We're not talking about just surgical strikes against an array of targets inside Iran. We're talking about clearing a path to the targets" by taking out much of the Iranian Air Force, Kilo submarines, anti-ship missiles that could target commerce or U.S. warships in the Gulf, and maybe even Iran's ballistic missile capability, White said.

So destroy the nukes and Iran's military capacity?
Serves them right for supporting the insurgents?

"I'm much more worried about the consequences of a U.S. or Israeli attack against Iran's nuclear infrastructure," which would prompt vigorous Iranian retaliation, he said, than civil war in Iraq, which could be confined to that country.

President George W. Bush has stressed he is seeking a diplomatic solution to the dispute over Iran's nuclear program.

But he has not taken the military option off the table and his recent rhetoric, plus tougher financial sanctions and actions against Iranian involvement in Iraq, has revived talk in Washington about a possible U.S. attack on Iran.

The Bush administration and many of its Gulf allies have expressed growing concern about Iran's rising influence in the region and the prospect of it acquiring a nuclear weapon.

hasn't Jordan started talking about nuclear power?

Middle East expert Kenneth Katzman argued "Iran's ascendancy is not only manageable but reversible" if one understands the Islamic republic's many vulnerabilities.

Tehran's leaders have convinced many experts Iran is a great nation verging on "superpower" status, but the country is "very weak ... (and) meets almost no known criteria to be considered a great nation," said Katzman of the Library of Congress' Congressional Research Service.

The economy is mismanaged and "quite primitive," exporting almost nothing except oil, he said.

And maybe not much longer. Iran apparently has some oil problems of its own.

Also, Iran's oil production capacity is fast declining and in terms of conventional military power, "Iran is a virtual non-entity," Katzman added.

The administration, therefore, should not go out of its way to accommodate Iran because the country is in no position to hurt the United States, and at some point "it might be useful to call that bluff," he said.

But Katzman cautioned against early confrontation with Iran and said if there is a "grand bargain" that meets both countries' interests, that should be pursued.

So this could be a move to give Iran the slap down and remind it that its still, in terms of global power, a light weight?
 
welsh said:
So this could be a move to give Iran the slap down and remind it that its still, in terms of global power, a light weight?

Heh, hello overstretch!

The US is in the middle of crisis management and you want to attack someone? Don't make me laugh.
 
Well W says he's going with diplomacy... yeah.

The plan seems to call for a big attack, but not a long-term war. And considering W's habit of unrealistic planning based on "best case" calculations... he just might go for it.
 
The US military is overstretched and under-equipped as it is, has proven itself to suck Godzilla balls at urban warfare, not to mention the nifty reputation of warmongering amidst, well, pretty much everyone on the planet dubyah has managed to create, alienating every possible middle eastern ally, including *Turkey*, which is a feat in itself. Dick Cheney's being cockslapped around for providing bogus information, and nazi Rumsfeld is out of the game.

Can't see it happening.
 
- Two more years of a lame duck with nothing to lose,

- fears that his vision of a middle east policy will not be followed by successors, and,

- fear of being disgraced for being the Worst President Ever, who enacted the "Biggest Fuck Up in Diplomacy Ever."

Might just drive W to try this stunt.

As for the military being overstretched, yeah. That hasn't stopped a president before.

Bad intelligence, bad planning, poor foresight, lack of realism.... yeah... So in otherwords this is more typical Bush policy making?

You guys are suggesting calmer, more rational heads might prevail?

Are you kidding? Why would you expect a revolutionary change at this late date?
 
I can't imagine them realistically doing this.

I really can't, not with them already caught up in Iraq. The USA doesn't have the manpower right now to do anything about it, nor does Bush have the political support to do this.

It might become a election stunt in 2008, though.
 
"Calmer, more rational heads" have prevailed both in NK's nuke test, and Ahmadinedjad's trolling. Last I checked, Congress is ruled by the Democrats, and you need Congress to declare war, it isn't as if W's got half the support he had whilst starting Operation Civil War.

Also, the US is incapable of delivering an attack of the scale of "Operation Iraqui Freedom" at the moment.

What are you going to do? Bleed on them? Nuke them? Puh-lease.

Two more years of a lame duck with nothing to lose,

And risk starting another war, which might last God-knows-how many years, and cost God-knows-how much money? Not likely.

fears that his vision of a middle east policy will not be followed by successors

What "policy"?

fear of being disgraced for being the Worst President Ever, who enacted the "Biggest Fuck Up in Diplomacy Ever."

As if he isn't already?

Attacking Iran will make it look *better*? What is it, the more countries you attack, the more points you get on the PresiScore 2000 game?
 
Would Bush do this? Yes. Would congress let him? No. I doubt even a Republican congress would let him go on another adventure, the US military is stretched in terms of manpower. Still if it was declared i believe they could muster a sufficient force, provided it did not have intentions of cleaning up after the war. There in lies the two problems, firstly the US can hardly just walk in, flatten the Iranian military, terminate their nuclear project and walk out and it certainly cannot secure and occupy the country. Secondly even if the military was strong enough the cost would be insane.

So no war, extensive strike maybe but no war.
 
Wooz said:
"Calmer, more rational heads" have prevailed both in NK's nuke test, and Ahmadinedjad's trolling. Last I checked, Congress is ruled by the Democrats, and you need Congress to declare war, it isn't as if W's got half the support he had whilst starting Operation Civil War.
Yeah, you need congress to declare war.
Then you realise that Iraq and Afghanistan weren't official wars either. Military actions do not require senate support, what with the President being supreme commander.
However, the consequence of Bush bypassing the senate would be him being unable to get *anything* done from the senate for the next years, losing a lot of popular support and pretty much dooming the Republican Party for the next presidential election, guaranteeing a Democratic two-year 'dictatorship'.

Wooz said:
fear of being disgraced for being the Worst President Ever, who enacted the "Biggest Fuck Up in Diplomacy Ever."

As if he isn't already?
If many people can name Reagan as the best president ever, I doubt he'll be considered a bad one, especially because he'll get the 9/11 sympathy vote.
 
I think an Israeli surgical strike against Iran's nuclear facilities is more likely. They’ve done it before and I think they'd have the most to lose if Iran developed a nuclear weapon.
 
Yeah- with Reagan love among the Republicans (Never mind how fucked up the Grenada Invasion was, or how he fucked up in Lebanon, or how he made big big debt), realism has nothing to do with this.

And yes, the President does need Congress to Declare War. Except...
Under War Powers, the President can put soldiers in harms way for 60 days before he has to pull them out.

In Bush's imagination, this is enough time for a punitive air and naval strike.

War? I don't think the administration wants a war. Not when it can send a A-130 gunship to hose down terrorists in Somalia or shoot cruise missiles from naval vessels at terrorist camps in Afghanistan and military targets in Serbia or send bombers to blow up targets in Libya.

To the administration, a military strike does not necessarily equal war.

But what if the Iranians decide to declare war on the US and begin to launch strikes on US targets in Iraq? Then you have a war no matter what Congress wishes for. The Power of Commander-in-Chief can force a nation to war regardless of a declaration.

This goes back to the Cold War- Vietnam started because the US lured North Korea into an attack. The US tried the same game in Nicaragua not so long ago under Reagan.

Yes, I agree an Israeli surgical strike on Iran is more likely, with the US (and others) clapping their hands.

That said, would W like to do a smack down on Iran? The US sank the Iranian fleet back in the 1990s during that reflag the Kuwaiti tanker thing. This could be seen as more of the same with more drama.

Drama sells popularity.

So-
- dismiss realism from this calculation.

+ Assume that W is willing to launch a strike- because realistically no one in the Pentagon will say no.

+ Consider that the administration likes to play a "best results" game in its expectations.

- And dismiss any project of boot on the ground in Iran- that won't happen.

= could be an attack is coming.

But if the US launches this won't be a quick surgical strike against a limited target, but a big hit against many targets, destroying other associated targets- radar instillations, SAM sites, airfields, anything remotely valuable between the airflield or aircraft carrier and targets.

And lets not forget, he's just sent another carrier battle group to that part of the world.

Of course this could all be bluff. One compels an enemy the same way you deter- by promising massive pain as a consequence of their failure to act.

In the game of chicken two cars race at each other at high speed just to see which of the two swerves. The ideal result is that the other guy swerves first- you become the hero and the other guys is the chicken.
The worst result is that no one swerves and both crash and burn.

But the goal is prestige- to force the other guy to swerve by showing either resolve or madness. How do you win? By throwing the steering wheel out the window so the other guy knows you're going all the way.

Bush may be playing on the madness-" I am going unilateral and all the way. This isn't rational, but I will do it anyway."

In fact the high political costs of this might actually convince the Iranians that he's sincere in his commitment to attack. This is called "costly moves"- costly moves signals one's seriousness of intention and reduces the probability of backing off.

So W might be playing a very dangerous game here.

The closer you edge to war, the more likely the war will happen because the costs of edging up are often irretreavible. Each move forces the edger to manifest greater sincerity of conviction. Like in a game of Chicken, if the other side doesn't swerve and you turn first- you're the pussy. I don't think W want's to go out with people thinking he's a pussy. Furthermore, if you turn pussy in one game, what's to say you won't in the next- with North Korea.

That's bad.

But what's really bad though is that Iran might be committed to this for its own reasons.

We often think the idea of Iran going nuclear for energy reasons as utter bullshit. Why go nuclear when you have so much fucking oil under your ground?

Well- two things-

(1) Opportunity cost- considering the high price of oil, Iran might be thinking this is a good chance to diversify- to get a better piece of the global oil revenue move itself from the poor house.

or

(2) it might be suffering from its oil addiction in other ways. By getting oil for cheap, it might have over-exploited its oil supplies, creating an internal dependence on oil it can't escape from.

Iran may need nuclear power: study By Jim Wolf
Tue Dec 26, 10:48 AM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -
Iran's claim to need nuclear power may be genuine, given that it could run out of oil to export as soon as eight years from now, according to an analysis published on Tuesday by the National Academy of Sciences.

The study's author, Roger Stern, a researcher at Johns Hopkins University in Maryland, said investment in Iranian oil production had been inadequate to offset oil field declines and the explosive growth in domestic demand.

"I'm not saying that Iran will have no oil in eight years," Stern said in a telephone interview. "I'm saying that they will be using all of it for themselves."

The analysis, published in the latest issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, said the Iranian government could become "politically vulnerable" from declining exports.

Oil exports account for about 70 percent of Iranian government revenue, said Stern, of the university's department of geography and environmental engineering.

He projected that in five years, Iranian oil exports may be less than half their present level, and could drop to zero by 2015.

"It therefore seems possible that Iran's claim to need nuclear power might be genuine, an indicator of distress from anticipated export revenue shortfalls," he wrote. "If so, the Iranian regime may be more vulnerable than is presently understood."

Iran has vowed to boost its uranium enrichment drive despite new U.N. sanctions approved on Saturday aimed at rolling back a nuclear program that the West fears is a prelude to atomic weapons.

Under Secretary of State Nicholas Burns called on Japan, Europe, Russia and China to stop "business as usual" with Iran "to drive up the cost to the Iranians of essentially doing what they're doing" with uranium enrichment.

So given this, Iran might be looking at economic ruin in a few years if it doesn't develop nuclear power.

Returning to the game of chicken- the Iranians don't have a steering wheel at all. For them it could be either we go nuclear or we get overthrown.
 
There would be no way the US would attack Iran the country doesn't want to be in Iraq now. It would cause riots for sure if they did go to Iran.
An anyway the war in Iraq has cost over a trilion dollars so far, I could not seem them being able to afford the war.
 
If U.S. involvement continues on the current scale, the funding for the Iraq war — combined with the conflict in Afghanistan and other foreign fronts in the war on terrorism — is projected to surpass this country's Vietnam spending next year.

wow!

They managed to spend as mutch ás they did in ~16 years in something lik ~6-7 years (if you take 9/11 as the starting point).

Not bad i must say.

What is it that has changed so mutch in those past years then?

Why have the pricetag on war gone up so mutch? Is it over twice as expensive to fight a war today compared to 40-50 years ago?

Might it be all those mercenaries corporations that boost the expenses?
 
Correct me if im wrong but by what ive heard on the news the USA army is serously overstreched, so doesnt that mean even if bush woud want to atack someone he coudnt couse there aint no free troops and furthermore woud the democratic congres pass such a bill or whatever you need before going to war?
 
Did you even read this thread? 'Cause everything you just said has already been adressed in this thread.
 
keyser Soeze said:
wow!

They managed to spend as mutch ás they did in ~16 years in something lik ~6-7 years (if you take 9/11 as the starting point).

Not bad i must say.

What is it that has changed so mutch in those past years then?

Why have the pricetag on war gone up so mutch? Is it over twice as expensive to fight a war today compared to 40-50 years ago?

Might it be all those mercenaries corporations that boost the expenses?
1) inflation (has it been calculated to compensate for it?)
2) mercs cost a hell of a lot more than conscripts (although i doubt this has already been calculated to it's true costs)
3) provisions: a can of crapass coke (produced locally) costs the army 50 dollars a piece. you do the math. thank god for open spending contracts, huh?
4) 'advanced' military tech: smart bombs, night vision, aimpoint scopes on all rifles (or equivalent), bodyarmor etc. that costs a lot more than sending rookies into the bushes with a totally standard plastic gun and the most basic kit you can find.
i'm guessing 1 Harpoon cruise missile costs more than 1 B-52 planeload of 'stupid' bombs.
 
SuAside said:
keyser Soeze said:
wow!

They managed to spend as mutch ás they did in ~16 years in something lik ~6-7 years (if you take 9/11 as the starting point).

Not bad i must say.

What is it that has changed so mutch in those past years then?

Why have the pricetag on war gone up so mutch? Is it over twice as expensive to fight a war today compared to 40-50 years ago?

Might it be all those mercenaries corporations that boost the expenses?
1) inflation (has it been calculated to compensate for it?)
2) mercs cost a hell of a lot more than conscripts (although i doubt this has already been calculated to it's true costs)
3) provisions: a can of crapass coke (produced locally) costs the army 50 dollars a piece. you do the math. thank god for open spending contracts, huh?
4) 'advanced' military tech: smart bombs, night vision, aimpoint scopes on all rifles (or equivalent), bodyarmor etc. that costs a lot more than sending rookies into the bushes with a totally standard plastic gun and the most basic kit you can find.
i'm guessing 1 Harpoon cruise missile costs more than 1 B-52 planeload of 'stupid' bombs.

Yea inflation was compensated.

Yea i was thinking about the food issue. But i though it might be even cheaper today when its a whole industry around warfare. Something like - lots of competition = cheaper prices. But it might not work that way, maybe its more lobbying and connections that decides who get what contract.

The new weapons cost more true, but they had allot more men in Vietnam. Wiki states that the lagrestforce in Vietnam was 543 400 soldiers. In Iraq its was ~300 000 in the invasion force and now its around 150 000 +~50 000 contractors so around 200 000.

The safety of every individual soldier is probably USAs biggest weakness today. Its extrenely important for them to keep their loses to a minimum because if they lose to many the general opinion at home will soon turn on them.

But this safety as you said cost allot of $. So they have to keep their force allot smaller nowadays and that might be one of the reasons they cant make it work. A bigger force will not solve everything i know but the fact that they cant choose to have it, is a big draw back i would say.
 
After the semi-intelligent debate, the zerg rush of ill-formulated, tedious, newbie cerebral diahrrea.

Sigh.
 
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