Van Buren's Plot and Setting

Atomic Postman

Atomic Postman

Vault Archives Overseer
I've been re-reading all of the information we have on Van Buren, and I've been thinking a lot about it.

Did anyone else dislike the plot? Or the tone that came across? I don't know, I just didn't get a very "Fallout" feeling from it. I mean sure I liked a lot of the concepts and the designs, but there was something that felt "off" about it.

Presper came across like a bit of a joke and his evil plot was basically a rehash of the Enclave's, but with a space station. Obviously I understand that Van Buren was in very early development and the plot could have been heavily changed by the time of release, but I wonder how much of it would have been really different.

If I'm honest, I prefer Fallout: NV as a sequel to Fallout 2 than the hypothetical Van Buren.

Anyway, let's have a general discussion on the Fallout 3 that could have been.
 
I like the stuff I've read about The Hanged Man and his role in the game. I kinda wish a character like that had made its way into New Vegas somehow but at least we got some of it in Honest Hearts.
 
It is true that Van Buren's plot repeats many of the plot points of Fallout 2, but Presper's motives shifted from 'pure humans' (pre war human stock not affected by mutagens) to what Presper considered to be 'true humanity', those he felt were focused on rebuilding civilization and society.
Like Ulysses Presper (pre war version and NCR version) he felt that civilization had be 'recovering' in a wrong way; NCR which once was founded on the ideals and values of America having grown sick and weak because of internal corruption and outside war (the BOS, the Legion).

We did not hear him on the Legion but he probably would consider them another backwards group that is failing to learn from history and move on on it, rebuilding slaver empires and being backwards and superstitious.

As for Ghouls and Super Mutants. I don't think Presper hated them but he certain didn't like the prospect of these sub species of humanity rising up and replacing regular humanity with their own civilization. And seeing as both sub species are sterile and can not reproduce in a natural way Presper probably thinks he would simply be accelerating their eventual extinction. A couple of eggs that need to be broken.

So I do think Presper was different enough from President Richardson, not so much as genetic pure humans but rather 'pure' humans who aren't thoroughly corrupted, obsessed by greed, and backwards in some way, and of course who will follow his leadership in the new world he wants to create.

I do like Fallout New Vegas' plot but I found it rather low key compared to the events of Fallout 1 and 2 in which the player's actions affected more than just California and the people living in it. This just felt like a more regular chapter of Fallout history.
This is why I would have liked it if Lonesome Road had been the official ending of Fallout New Vegas. That after the Second Battle of Hoover Dam has taken place the Player is contacted by Ulysses who has made his decision on how to restart the world by nuking which government or groups.
 
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The Dutch Ghost said:
I do like Fallout New Vegas' plot but I found it rather low key compared to the events of Fallout 1 and 2 in which the player's actions affected more than just California and the people living in it. This just felt like a more regular chapter of Fallout history.
This is why I would have liked it if Lonesome Road had been the official ending of Fallout New Vegas. That after the Second Battle of Hoover Dam has taken place the Player is contacted by Ulysses who has made his decision on how to restart the world by nuking which government or groups.
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God, a thousand times this. I always felt like New Vegas' main quest was pretty much a glorified side quest once you killed Benny. There wasn't any real narrative connection between the Dam and "They Went That-Away!" unless you sided with House.
 
Dutch >
Isn't Father Elijah supposed to be Vesper equivalent for FoNV ?

Child >
Well, on your way to Vegas, you spend much more time being acquainted with the NCR, the powder Ganger, the legion and the Chip, than learning anything worthwhile about Benny... (until you meet the guy, but even there, he is a lot connected with House/Yes Man/Caesar)
 
Oh, they're definitely connected, but it's more by a coincidence (or contrivance) of the setting than by it actually following a logical sequence of events. The Dam is only really linked in that kind of way to the first part of the main quest if you decide to side with House or Yes Man. That's partially why I think if Obsidian makes another Fallout game that House or Yes Man might end up being the canon ending.

It'd be like if Fallout 1 told me that I had to go to Necropolis for the water chip right at the start, but had some elaborate contrivance in it that forced me to visit all of the other towns first.
 
Most of Van Buren's ideas seem to have been reused throughout the New Vegas DLC

I think they did a great job with its resources

Save Van Buren for a later game; perhaps as some kind of DLC for Fallout 4
 
I think I'm a little late for this thread :P
I like to think that as a finished product it would have worked as a sequel better than FONV and (waaaaay) better than FO3. And the concept/idea wasn't bad. The "atmosphere" that it transmited, what was playable, wasn't very Fallout-ish to me: it felt more like a Post-Apocalypse Dota 2 than a FO, but that's just me. And IMO that the plot, as a draft, it was OK.
I'd love to see if FO4 has anything to say about Van Buren, even if it's unlikely to happen.
 
The plot it seemed a bit convoluted, to be honest. And too much borrowing from FO1 and 2: another plot to save the world by destroying it/"purifying" it through means of a virus? Seriously? How many times is that going to happen?

I think they took a most of the more promising elements and incorporated them into New Vegas. In spite of New Vegas' flaws, I think it's a worthy successor in terms of tone and content to the originals.
 
Kilgore Trout said:
The plot it seemed a bit convoluted, to be honest. And too much borrowing from FO1 and 2: another plot to save the world by destroying it/"purifying" it through means of a virus? Seriously? How many times is that going to happen?
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I remember Victor Presper wants to use nuclear missiles on B.O.M.B.-001 to purify the world. Releasing Limit 115 is only for gaining control of the missiles.
But yeah, another bad guy wants to destroy the world, and our hero has to save (part of) it.
 
AlphaPromethean said:
I've been re-reading all of the information we have on Van Buren, and I've been thinking a lot about it.

Did anyone else dislike the plot? Or the tone that came across? I don't know, I just didn't get a very "Fallout" feeling from it. I mean sure I liked a lot of the concepts and the designs, but there was something that felt "off" about it.

Presper came across like a bit of a joke and his evil plot was basically a rehash of the Enclave's, but with a space station. Obviously I understand that Van Buren was in very early development and the plot could have been heavily changed by the time of release, but I wonder how much of it would have been really different.

If I'm honest, I prefer Fallout: NV as a sequel to Fallout 2 than the hypothetical Van Buren.

Anyway, let's have a general discussion on the Fallout 3 that could have been.
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I'm really no expert in the subject, but I'd take everything from the tech demo with a grain of salt. If I understood the Fallout 1's post-mortem correctly, they tinkered with the idea of it being about "dinosaurs in space" until relatively late in development. Script writing is an iterative process, and you write lots of BS until you get to a convincing definitive version.

The Dutch Ghost said:
And seeing as both sub species are sterile and can not reproduce in a natural way Presper probably thinks he would simply be accelerating their eventual extinction. A couple of eggs that need to be broken.
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Well, in Van Buren ghouls aren't actually sterile, they just have absurdly low fertility rates (~1-2% compared to normal humans, IIRC).


On the criticism to both FO3, FONV and VB's plot, though, they do seem like a common rehash. That doesn't mean they aren't good quality expressions of a typical hero's journey narrative by itself.
 
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I gotta say I liked more the individual places and characters more than the main plot, I liked the idea that you being a carrier for the virus would mean places could get different endings because you were there too long too often. The Hanged man was col but I much prefer Joshua Graham as he appears in Honest hearts.
 
Well, in Van Buren ghouls aren't actually sterile, they just have absurdly low fertility rates (~1-2% compared to normal humans, IIRC).
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Actually all regular Ghouls are sterile, you must be confused with the 'born ghouls' that were created in the Reservation.


I remember Victor Presper wants to use nuclear missiles on B.O.M.B.-001 to purify the world. Releasing Limit 115 is only for gaining control of the missiles.
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Presper wanted ODYSSEUS to send the missile warm up codes to BOMB 001 and other nuclear missile launch sites, but the only way to make ODYSSEUS do so was to make it determine that LIMIT115 had spread beyond any regular containment method.
 
The Dutch Ghost said:
Well, in Van Buren ghouls aren't actually sterile, they just have absurdly low fertility rates (~1-2% compared to normal humans, IIRC).
Click to expand...

Actually all regular Ghouls are sterile, you must be confused with the 'born ghouls' that were created in the Reservation.
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My answer to this is "kind of". I was aware that I was thinking about born ghouls, but I thought they were the natural offspring of ghouls. I'll probably check that later, since it seems I recalled it wrongly.
 
Born Ghouls were an experiment by Dr. Sebastian in the reservation. There was a 1%-2% of a succesful Born Ghoul birth, and they were birthed from Humans, so I assume it's probably ghoulifying a fetus in development so they develop around the mutantions or something. But they also seemed to be fertile themselves as you were supposed to be able to impregnate a female Born Ghoul.
 
I'd love to see properly developed Legion, including conquered lands and communities. Perhaps with less Roman and more post-apo vibe instead. You know, there's empire led by [strike]Caesar[/strike] Emperor in Frank Herbert's Dune too, without resorting to any Roman references. It's focused on the imperial structure itself instead, using new futuristic elements as sardaukars; that makes it very interesting, creative, and much more original.

There's this imperial idea developed in Fallout 1.5 Resurrection mod too, with city of Albuquerque ruled by Caesar, yet you won't find any Roman cliche there. Only true fallout-y proprieties as a Mutant Hunters faction, or imperial guards wearing nomex-kevlar combat armor. That fit my taste much better than Roman requisities from Van Buren/FNV, escpecially when combined with that aesthetically perfect and original art from first Fallout designed by Leonard Boyarsky.
 
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I thought the plot was pretty clever. See what the Dutch Ghost wrote, everything Presper did was not for lolz but to get him closer to his true goal. If Bethesda or BioWare would have done the story, it would be "Presper is a mad scientist and look how he destroys the world for fun! HAHAHAHA"

Same with to the "prison-mechanic" with robots hunting down the player to bring him back into his cell... which had a huge hole (more or less accidentally created by Presper), which the player can use to get out into the wild again... just to get hunted by robots who want to bring him back into his cell. To me this idea feels 100% Fallout, because it's kinda lolzy but still serious and believable. Also it's a good mechanic to get some additional pressure on the player, without being so serious that failing here would mean the game ends (you always just return "back to start").

Same#2 with the player actually being the source of spreading the virus around the world, which in the first place makes it possible for Presper to get the bomb codes from ODYSSEUS.

The ultimate reason for Presper to do what he does might be a little meh, but for me everything else in this construct weights a lot heavier than this one element.

All in all I think it sounds awesome. But always keep in mind- this is out of the design documents. Usually this stuff changes heavily over time, things are getting removed due to time constraits or whatever. I am very sure that the final game would be quite different from what we could read in the documents.


PS: The little stuff we know about Baldur's Gate 3 - The Black Hound felt really awesome to me as well.
 
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If only inXile could gather some old Fallout designers in case they'll decide to resurrect Van buren.. Since Mr. Anderson has left inXile, I was wondering where's Scott Campbell now, because this article has convinced me that he can be trusted him in terms of proper Fallout sequel design:
http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=60785
 
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