Vault-Tec experiments dumbest plot line ever

the Vault experiments make perfect since, as they theoretically provide the prefect experimental conditions for any social experiment being able to play with the independent variables in almost perfectly controlled enviroment. Heck you could even tie the tactics storyline here Vault 0 being the control center, but in the same time they being also part of the experiment. And for the motif for somebody doing such a thing well we don't have to go that far history being full of people who tried to make it happen ,trying to make utopian societies. The war could have presented the perfect opportunity, and the social experiment of the vaults being the experiment that will provide the know how the missing links which are then added to the existing data provided by social science.
So what if in the process couple of thousands of people died they did it for the greater good of a perverted concept of humanity, There were vaults that actually functioned, which can provide the raw material to repopulate the earth, artificial insemination being able to enormously speed up the process (who knows maybe they had a couple of large sperm banks with pree war material :mrgreen: ).
And if we put all this in the context of the 50's i's not that impossible, just remember the prank of 38' by Orson Wells wich caused nationwide panic in the US was still fresh
 
And maybe the enclave is an experiment itself from another secret secret government, deeper in the dark bad government conspiracy? So there would be an experiment inside the experiment, but inside the experiment?
Maybe they wasn't any spaceship, but it was just to see how the enclave would adapt to the situation?
Afterall, it makes perfect sense, if you look at it the right way. it is just a 200 years experiment. But the results you can get from it are so obvious. Lets destroy the earth, so we can finaly conduct experiment with 1 male and 1000 female subjects.
And anyway, people in the 50's, they were different from people nowodays. They all had hats. And they looks tv in black and white.
So this is proof! Everything is possible with THAT sort of people.

I mean, when you think at it 2 sec, it all makes sense! Instead of trying to preserve a maximum of your manpower and culture to survive as a society in the aftermath of a Nuclear War, with possibly a lot of other remnants of nations pissed off at you, let's make some "social experiments" and have tea!
Afterall, this is all what Nixon is about, right?
 
Ok so i seance a little bit of irony there but nomather......first if we think in the parameters of a world war 1 general, where everything was measured in resources and man power, then yeah experimenting with large number of people that could actually give you an edge in a future combat, you are right, experimenting for 200 years it just doesn't make sense. But if we modify the parameters with a more radical mindset, blowing up the world first and then experimenting with the ones you stashed away makes perfect sense, the motif itself being almost as old as human culture, being exploited by Hollywood(ex Sky Captain and the world of tomorrow where doc Totenkopf, wants to destroy the whole world with his Ark spaceship, as the world is corrupt and needs a fresh start, also if i heard right even Watchmen plays on the same motif,) or by religion like Christianity, especially the more radically thinking ones where only a few thousand are saved and the rest perish.
Now you could argue that maybe i demonstrated that they would blow up the world but not that they would experiment on those that they stashed away in the arks a.k.a vaults. especially for 200 years. First let's address the first part with the time frame. Asimov in the foundation saga actually conceived an experiment that lasted for much more than 200 years. I the real world there are social experiments that were started in the 70 and still continue, (these are of course experiments on a much smaller scale, but still I just want to prove that if the goal is considered "noble" enough there will to complete it will also be there). For the first part, actually the scientist who would have come up with the experiment would have been truly an evil genius as he would have recognized that it's not enough to cleanse the world and start over, as you could do the same mistakes over and over, so you had to have the answers for some vital social questions, for which the vaults, as I stated in my previous post, were the perfect ground for, then using the data you collected and building the perfect society (which is of course an imposibility but that doesn't mean that people will stop trying, as you will start to make new mistakes)

Now for the wacky things that the designers thought of like, only children in a vault, or 1000 women and 1 man and vice versa, make since in a game world that has a 50's aura, as in the 50's social scientist came up with a bunch of wacky ideas that actually were carried out(the prison experiments, Skinners behavioral experiments, just to name a few) as they were in the stage much similar to the physicists or chemist in the 30's (like mix that shit with that shit and let's see if it blows, or o jeesh let's see what an A bomb explosion looks like).

And as for your statement that people from the 50's were not that different from people from any other time.....well i beg to differ. That is true that people from all periods of history are the same because they are all homo sapiens, and have the same basic needs, but that is the only common thing. I don't want to get into details as it's not the purpose of this post, ill just remind you of the generation conflict between children and parents, as they think differently, or that scientist from the 50's worked with a different paradigm(Modernism), than those from the 80's and 90's. Oh and people from the 50 were very paranoya building bomb shelters in the back yard and so on, things that most of us don't really do today, being much more preocupied by the global warming than atomic war.
And as Vault 0 being part of the experiment is exagerated....well it's not, maybe they tested what the feeling of being in control and almighty does to people(how people drunk with power behave).
 
Grayswandir said:
And maybe the enclave is an experiment itself from another secret secret government, deeper in the dark bad government conspiracy? So there would be an experiment inside the experiment, but inside the experiment?
Maybe they wasn't any spaceship, but it was just to see how the enclave would adapt to the situation?
Afterall, it makes perfect sense, if you look at it the right way. it is just a 200 years experiment. But the results you can get from it are so obvious. Lets destroy the earth, so we can finaly conduct experiment with 1 male and 1000 female subjects.
And anyway, people in the 50's, they were different from people nowodays. They all had hats. And they looks tv in black and white.
So this is proof! Everything is possible with THAT sort of people.

I mean, when you think at it 2 sec, it all makes sense! Instead of trying to preserve a maximum of your manpower and culture to survive as a society in the aftermath of a Nuclear War, with possibly a lot of other remnants of nations pissed off at you, let's make some "social experiments" and have tea!
Afterall, this is all what Nixon is about, right?
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The Enclave was planning to bail on Earth and go to the Moon or Mars. So yeah, it makes sense, since the rocket would be extremely limited and you only can have the strongest specimens on board.
 
Oh wait, was it canon that the Enlcave planed to dich the Earth, or that was deduced only from the ramblings of the Vice President. Then I ask why bother wiping Earth clean with the FEV. Leaving a devastated planet, but which is salvagable for one wich does not even have an breathable atmosphere....well it's not the most intelligent move... unless you would like to travel to another solar system, and then you could fit it in Sid Meier's Alpha Centrauri storyline, which would make more sense then Fallout 3, because it is turn based :mrgreen:
 
Because the plan seemingly failed. I guess either the rocket was inoperable or the Enclave lacked the tech to pull that stunt off. Or the launch base got the nuke.
 
I think it makes sense. You have the Enclave, a bunch of militarist assholes, who know that the world will be destroyed sooner or later. So they need a plan, to save their asses, when the bombs drop. They built a spaceship, to carry all their loyal followers to the Alpha Centauri.

Now, there are a lots of other people, so the need to build shelters for them, is obvious. Otherwise they will complain about the government not caring. So they build lots of Vaults, but knew that it's not possible to build enough, to save everyone. And they don't even want to. Instead, they let their mad scientists take over the vaults, and conduct an extremely large social experiment. Anyway, they would be leaving, so they just don't care.

But when the bombs drop, shit happens - the spaceship is destroyed. So they are left with a destroyed world, and an USA where the populace is the result of their experiment.

But they don't really want to deal with these humans, who they see as lesser people - so they try to wipe them out.
 
Of course it make sense. Did someone ever said it doesn't?
When you mention to the Prez that there isn't any air on mars, he answer you: "well, we are going to put some". It totally make sense!

As much sense as the illuminati and the big corporations regenting the world from the shadow through. Totally true! And Nosferatu had fortold it,
It also make sense that the CIA and the Mossad organised the attentat of the WTC so that the US could attack other countries. You just have to accord the parameters, and ignore the one you don't want to, and it fit totally!
There are even people with enought sense in them, who proved the existence (or inexistence) of God.

But, question : Does that make the plot less stupid?



PS no offense at anyone intended (and especially not at the sensitive illuminati). I just can't stand this plot, so unworthy of the one of the first opus.
 
Mikael Grizzly said:
Because the plan seemingly failed. I guess either the rocket was inoperable or the Enclave lacked the tech to pull that stunt off. Or the launch base got the nuke.
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Technology they had. With the finest AIs they could build (Zax, Skynet, Odysseus, Calculator...) + Nuclear Fusion Power + Advanced Materials + GECKs + Cold Sleep tech, I think I can safely say they certainly had the tech to go to Alpha Centauri and build a human civilization there. If we had that technology level, I don't think that we would be here nowdays.

I think the Enclave simply didn't had time to pull it off. They knew the Nuclear Apocalypse would come, that's part of their doctrine. I think that the collapse just happened faster than they expected, which probrably cut their evacuation plan.

Another possibility is that all was going according to the plan and the Ship EXISTS, but its incompleted on the orbit. This explains why they could't leave after the bombs - After the holocaust, they simply didn't had enough resources to launch shuttles. That's why they wanted to retake the continental USA - They needed the proper resource and logistical base only supreme control of the continent could offer. When you look at the Vaults and The Nursery, this makes sense.
 
Grayswandir said:
Of course it make sense. Did someone ever said it doesn't?
When you mention to the Prez that there isn't any air on mars, he answer you: "well, we are going to put some". It totally make sense!

As much sense as the illuminati and the big corporations regenting the world from the shadow through. Totally true! And Nosferatu had fortold it,
It also make sense that the CIA and the Mossad organised the attentat of the WTC so that the US could attack other countries. You just have to accord the parameters, and ignore the one you don't want to, and it fit totally!
There are even people with enought sense in them, who proved the existence (or inexistence) of God.

But, question : Does that make the plot less stupid?



PS no offense at anyone intended (and especially not at the sensitive illuminati). I just can't stand this plot, so unworthy of the one of the first opus.
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Ok I get it you like the F1 plot line more as it is not so tied to the prewar world, and in F2 you feel constantly haunted by the shadows of the past. But, this does not make the plot line stupid, as in my opinion fits with the paranoia of the 50's a thing on which the game plays upon, in which winning the ideological upper hand was as important as securing resources by any means possible (at least that was the general feeling), and blowing up the world in the process was perfectly acceptable. It pictures a radical government that uses the cause justifys the means, type of philosophy. There is no shadow government, no illuminati no Man in Black.
Also there is no reason to support your argument by refereing modern day conspiracy theories which are senseless and mathematically and logically impossible.

Now for the second thing.. Isn't wiping every last mutated being of the face of the Earth is kind of an overkill if you only want to gather resources to ditch this radiated joint, and hook up with those wacky aliens, for a drink at some intergalactic strip joint
 
Then why argument over it if you dont think the same as I?
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It is called debating. I find the plot dumb for this and this reason, doesn't mean I call the one who think it's a good plot dumb.


in F2 you feel constantly haunted by the shadows of the past.
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Not necessary, it is the content of this past that i dislike. Like the war on canadian being made only to capture the hockey players...

Also there is no reason to support your argument by refereing modern day conspiracy theories which are senseless and mathematically and logically impossible.
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Yes there is. A shadow government (the enclave) linked with all supranational company (vault tek, poseidon), who don't value human life (the experiments) who wants to go to Mars. All the element of our modern day conspiracy theories are there, but the dev made it true.
With F1 hey had a KDick like plot (total recall, screamers), and they morphed it into a Mulder and Scully story. "I think the goverment is involved, bouh!"

Now, I totally picture a 50's paranoid government blowing the world to win the ideological conflict with the communist, and betting on the fact that their vault program are better than the one of the ennemy.
But planning massive experiment on the only surviving population that you have, the one you went into some much trouble to save (the scientifics, the politicians...), has nothing to do with paranoia. It is not even insane, just illogical.
Try to picture the scene, you are a right wing republican "nixon like" leader, and there goes your conselor, Sr MacMarty:
"M.Prez, the nuclear war is inevitable. But don't worry, we are going to build shelters where we are going to experiment on people, and in one hundred year maybe two, your grand child is maybe flying to Mars. Oh, yes, we are going to put some oxygen in mars too. Just sign there..."

If you ask me, this is one big easter egg...
Now of course, it is possible to justify anything, science ficion, parallele univers, bla bla bla, like you can justify the talking deathclaw. But it sucks bad (for me at least) :? :?
 
Do you actually bother to understand the point?

Here's the point: there were seventeen control vaults, that gives around seventeen thousand people, more than enough to maintain a diverse gene pool. Other Vaults were designed as experiments, to monitor how a human behaved in a variety of different circumstances. Basing on this data, the surviving American forces would configure the shuttle and other systems to create a perfect environment for long time deep space voyage and arriving on a new planet.

The Enclave knew that a nuclear war was going to happen eventually, and that Earth would be irreversibly devastated, so they decided to select a precise group of people (the aforementioned control Vaults) in addition to themselves that will be going to the stars.

Point is, it wasn't meant to happen after one or two hundred years, but within the first fifty years following the nuclear war (enough time for experiments to conclude and use the same generation that entered the Vaults).

Don't think in regular terms. The Enclave is a bunch of bigoted bastards.
 
Wow!
Yes I bother, and yes i did.
But again (last time i repeat myself) whatever your justification or speculation, it doesn't change the sillyness of the plot.
So it's 50 years and not 100. Big deal. Where did you get that number anyway.
Gosh, even Chris Avelone stated that this experiment idea was over the top. And it isn't even necessary to the extermination plot.


Don't think in regular terms.
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But I do! And i expect to!

The Enclave is a bunch of bigoted bastards.
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BAAD guy. With a BIG B.

Well it's lame.
Enclave Experiment : Worst plot ever.

(and just because I think differently than you doesn't mean I didn't took the time to understand the point of view of others...)
 
Grayswandir said:
Then why argument over it if you dont think the same as I?
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It is called debating. I find the plot dumb for this and this reason, doesn't mean I call the one who think it's a good plot dumb.

Well, I thought in a debate you would change your mind, if reasons come up, but you don't want to change your mind, so there's no point in arguing. And you are really not considering other viewpoints, because you think the plot is dumb, from no matter what viewpoint.

And changing quotes is just dumb and immoral.
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For ONCE I was feeling too lazy to read all but the first few and last few posts in this thread but I still will ignorantly give my own opinion even if someone has already discussed it.

In the era of american history that FO emulates, there was alot of tension with people in general regarding governmental issues as well as many seeds of distrust. Thanks to the rampant anti-communism spreading due to the coldwar. And the socialist witch hunt being spear headed by Senator Joseph "I See Reds" McCarthy there was a lot of internal as well as external distrust.

The cold war had alot of spy vs spy type things (often times ending with the spy who set the trap falling for the other spys trap.. usually the white ones..). There was also a fair amount of psychological testing and attempts at "mind control" through specific drug uses (see: CIA water tampering).

The idea of a corporation doing massive testing on unwitting human subjects is really not that far fetched IF you are keeping in mind the era that this was being done in. I'm sure many of you have heard the phrase: "Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean I'm not being followed."

Finally, while I may not be certain in terms of canon(correct me if I'm wrong, I have NOT read the FO Bibles) but isn't it possible that Vault-Tec could have possibly set off an alarm forcing people to head to the shelters without there actually being any bombs droping? Then once the required people had entered and sealed their vaults, Vault-Tec could issue a statement blaming the false warning on a system malfunction of some sort, however the Vault Dwellers would not know this having been cut off from the rest of the world except for a connection TO Vault Tec via the computers?
 
Then why argument over it if you dont think the same as I

quote="Grayswandir"]It is called debating. I find the plot dumb for this and this reason, doesn't mean I call the one who think it's a good plot dumb.?
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Well as pointed out by somebody else this kind of an attitude makes debating irrelevant, as with a blunt statement like this there is little chance to listen and consider any other argument


Yes there is. A shadow government (the enclave) linked with all supranational company (vault tek, poseidon), who don't value human life (the experiments) who wants to go to Mars. All the element of our modern day conspiracy theories are there, but the dev made it true.
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As Eternal pointed out and I also tried to explain, the experiment is perfectly logical, as there are a bunch of precedents, for ex. during the J.Edgar Hoover era (psst i am huntig reds :) ) , and there is no shadow government (heck maybe the remnant government started to call itself Enclave after the war), it's only a radical government elected by the people, who thinks that the validity of a belief it’s more important than the actual survival of its people and there are plentiful examples for that (think of religion), they just didn't have the means to pull it off. Conspiracy theories involving illuminati and free masons usually have a narrative that goes back 100 if not thousands of years, and their goal is not to destroy the world, on the contrary their goal is to control the world in its current state, and enslave the people without them actually realizing, and this is no way done by blowing up the world in the process, thus their mentioning irrelevant in a Fallout related discussion.



Now, I totally picture a 50's paranoid government blowing the world to win the ideological conflict with the communist, and betting on the fact that their vault program are better than the one of the ennemy.
But planning massive experiment on the only surviving population that you have, the one you went into some much trouble to save (the scientifics, the politicians...), has nothing to do with paranoia. It is not even insane, just illogical.
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Well actually they did save their best scientist and politicians......they ARE the Enclave,

Grayswandir you are constantly thinking in the parameters of a more or less normal political mindset, who calculates resources, money, affordability and such, but try imagining a Hitler or Stalin kind of a logic who didn't bother to butcher millions (Stalin actually leading the body count), in the name of an ideal (you could argument that they didn't bother blowing up the world, well that is true because they didn't have the means to pull that off or survive something like that, and the argument that they didn't sacrifice their own people is also infirmed - will leave Hitler out of this- by the case of Stalin as he did butcher and experiment on his own people building up Soviet Union and heck he even wacked a couple of generation of his henchman, the sad truth is that people are an expendable resource which is easily replenished.)
 
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