Vault-Tec experiments dumbest plot line ever

[Grayswandir]

Well, I thought in a debate you would change your mind, if reasons come up

But then again, who decides what reason is?
At least I don't try to impose my view on others.

And changing quotes is just dumb and immoral.

That must have been my enclave side in me...
I was careful not changing the meaning of it, but you can happily report me.

there is no shadow government

I am pretty sure there are dialogue mentioning the enclave as such in F2, and totally sure it is in Van Buren (yeah, this one ain't canon, but that give an insight on how the dev saw things). So from where i stand, its a canon thing. You can check it in the wikia if you want.

heck maybe the remnant government started to call itself Enclave after the war

Yeah, that part is true. But maybe that changed with bethesda...

Conspiracy theories involving illuminati and free masons usually have a narrative that goes back 100 if not thousands of years, and their goal is not to destroy the world, on the contrary their goal is to control the world in its current state, and enslave the people without them actually realizing, and this is no way done by blowing up the world in the process, thus their mentioning irrelevant in a Fallout related discussion.

I am not sure about what the goal of the Illuminati are, but the goal of the enclave is also world domination, wich make them similar, if not identical. Whatever the name, it's still the same conspiracy theory. jericho anyone?

Grayswandir you are constantly thinking in the parameters of a more or less normal political mindset, who calculates resources, money, affordability and such

Yeah, that's right. Totaly that.
And this was the fallout world i was living in (well not literraly y'know), until I get to the enclave, and "oh well, we forget to tell you, this is a world where an american Stalin-like and his predecessors are trying to experiment on people to go to Mars."
I would have by far prefered a plot not involving such high level of insanity.
Humanity is perfectly capable of blowing itself without them, thanks.
And little Stalin had the mean to destroy and survive the war, at least in a same state as the enclave did, but he didn't simply because he had much more to lose than to gain in a nuclear war (yeah, I am again thinking in political mindset, who calculates resources, money, affordability and such ). So we are speaking of a level of insanity way higher than Stalin, and I maybe i speculate but he wouldn't have experimented on his remaining tovaritch after the destruction of the world, when he could have used them to rebuild his position.

But let's stop that, (well at least for me), all your arguments or speculations (even if I admit they are good), on how it all make sense aren't going to change my mind (obviously) and make me like this plot.
Now you (meaning also anyone who think it is a good plot, not only M. Nemo ) have all the rights to like the conspiracy theory/fly to Mars things and build perfectly logical explanation to it. I don't like the core of it. You said how in your mind it does make sense. I said in my mind how it's an easy plot, not necessary to the fallout.
Neither of us are changing our mind I think.

 

[x'il]

I must agree that the space travel and blowing the world on purpose is just an idiotic plot that resembles mustache twitching "buahaha i'm going to destroy the world and live underwater or in space buahaha" kind of villain...

But i don't know where all of that came from, since i don't remember seeing any of that in F2, what i saw and understood from F2, was that a fanatical, malevolent, power hungry, shadow government (nothing out of the ordinary for real life), foreseeing the possible total destruction in the disputes and war to come, build themselves sanctuaries and refuges to survive (the likes of which also exist in real life, no big deal), they then built in consort with vault-tec (or perhaps by infiltration) the vaults system which would allow them to perform medium and long term sociological experiments on unsuspecting populations within controlled environments and parameters, in order to have unprecedented levels of "knowledge" regarding human nature, when the ones who would inherit the earth (they, and their people, their scientist, their soldiers, their selected loyal citizens, that which is called The Enclave), emerge from their refuges and hiding places years after the war...(i don't see what the big deal is to accept that a government would create bunkers and refuges for themselves and their people and not for the general populations, given that this is the way it IS in real life - nuclear shelters and bunkers ring any bell? -, the shadow government called the enclave just took things a bit further, by creating such refuges for small percentages of the population BUT for their own experimentation purposes)...and one other thing; if the experiments mentioned seem a little far-fetched, ridiculous, and meant only to make people suffer...who knows what the goals of such were? it's not mentioned anywhere what questions are they supposed to provide answers for, and besides, history has shown that a lot of wackos have experimented on people without any true scientific method or any empathy or etics...(Mengele, anyone?)...

 

[nemo00]

there is no shadow government
I am pretty sure there are dialogue mentioning the enclave as such in F2, and totally sure it is in Van Buren (yeah, this one ain't canon, but that give an insight on how the dev saw things). So from where i stand, its a canon thing. You can check it in the wikia if you want

Yeah, that part is true. But maybe that changed with bethesda...

Well first if you support your points using Van Buren i'l listen, but don't ever mention Beth to me (if it was for me I would completely ignore F3, not even mention it on the forum like in the case of the Fallout BOS (because as you know bad publicity is still publicity

I am not sure about what the goal of the Illuminati are, but the goal of the enclave is also world domination, wich make them similar, if not identical. Whatever the name, it's still the same conspiracy theory. jericho anyone.

I wouldn't call the goal of the Enclave world domination....in their view they were doing something more on the lines of pest control

And little Stalin had the mean to destroy and survive the war,

I am not so sure of this, blowing up the world would require a whole lot o bombs and not those lame Fatman types, but the big ass hydrogen bomb type, and Stalin died just when the first tests were done.

But let's stop that, (well at least for me) all your arguments or speculations (even if I admit they are good), on how it all make sense aren't going to change my mind (obviously) and make me like this plot.
Now you (meaning also anyone who think it is a good plot, not only M. Nemo ) have all the rights to like the conspiracy theory/fly to Mars things and build perfectly logical explanation to it. I don't like the core of it. You said how in your mind it does make sense. I said in my mind how it's an easy plot, not necessary to the fallout.
Neither of us are changing our mind I think.

Well at least we agree on that . I just don't like when people call something dumb just because they don't like it. Hey I hate WoW and anything related to Warcraft, but that does not mean that the game is dumb (it is actually a very well done game and universe)

I must agree that the space travel and blowing the world on purpose is just an idiotic plot that resembles mustache twitching "buahaha i'm going to destroy the world and live underwater or in space buahaha" kind of villain...

That does sound like a villain from the 50's

 

[Ravager69]

That does sound like a villain from the 50's

Just because it fits in the 50s, it doesn't mean it fits in Fallout.

 

[Crni Vuk]

you guys should not forget that in the 50s and 60s there have been enough people that REALLY wanted a nuclear war no matter the cost. Why? I dont know it. They have not been degenerated or something. They just had somewhat false imagination I think and some the idea that nuclear bombs are weapons, and weapons are made to be used. Konrad Adenauer Cancellor of Germany during the 50s saw nuclear wepons for example as the "long arm of the artillery" how accurate is that kind of view I ask?. Now even intelligent and sane people can have a false idea about the situation. During a exercise for a nuclear war (they would had enough supplies in the vault for 40 days) Adenauer asked what they should do after the nukes exploded when all the watter is poluted. The aswer was, dieing cancellor what else.

 

[x'il]

you guys should not forget that in the 50s and 60s there have been enough people that REALLY wanted a nuclear war no matter the cost. Why? I dont know it. They have not been degenerated or something. They just had somewhat false imagination I think and some the idea that nuclear bombs are weapons, and weapons are made to be used. Konrad Adenauer Cancellor of Germany during the 50s saw nuclear wepons for example as the "long arm of the artillery" how accurate is that kind of view I ask?.

Yes, i agree, but again: space travel and blowing the world on purpose??... "buahaha ::twitches moustache:: buahaha"

Now even intelligent and sane people can have a false idea about the situation. During a exercise for a nuclear war (they would had enough supplies in the vault for 40 days) Adenauer asked what they should do after the nukes exploded when all the watter is poluted. The aswer was, dieing cancellor what else.

Hehe...i categorically deny any intelligence in such people, especially the one in your example, that given his station he should've known better (be better informed)...

::Dr Strangelove memories start popping up::

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

I have no problem with space travel in the Fallout universe, how ridiculous some people's claims there that there wasn't any rocket research.

As for blowing up the world on intent, I think it wasn't the plan, the US government was just prepared for such a possibility.

As for the Vault Social Experiments, no problem with those either as long as they stick to the goal of acquiring information for the Enclave's space program and not ridiculous super soldier projects like in Fallout 3.

 

[x'il]

I have no problem with space travel in the Fallout universe, how ridiculous some people's claims there that there wasn't any rocket research.

I shouldn't need to say this; but it is one thing to say there's rocket research and a very diferent one to say: "we have sci-fi technologically advanced spaceships that can travel through hyperspace or somesuch to the star system x where we have discovered an inhabitable planet much like earth itself" or "we have a gigantic space station that poseses artificial gravity and food systems and we will live there instead of on the planet's surface because...well, buahaha we are The Enclave ::quivers::, or any other nonsense of the kind...

As for the Vault Social Experiments, no problem with those either as long as they stick to the goal of acquiring information for the Enclave's space program

"buahaha ::twitches moustache:: buahaha" ...i said

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Honestly man, some of the anger is purely your own because they don't fit to your particular vision.

As for the whole hyperspace thing, where was that ever mentioned?

When they talked about interstellar travel, I thought at best some spinning fusion rocket during which the crew sleeps in cryogenic hibernation, with at best a fusion ramscoop to replenish fuel.

Not all concepts of interstellar travel rely on FTL you know.

 

[x'il]

Anger?? ANGER??!... ..hehehe...

Seriously though, 2 things: first, where in F2 is this "space travel" jump-the-shark thingy ever mentioned?, second, this "plot" just adds too much stuff into the game's universe, and by stuff i mean ridiculous, over-the-top, comedic stuff, it would make for too much of a comedy, do you mean to tell me that you do not find: "a shadow (or not too shadowy, who cares?) government stablishes a whole infrastructure of refuges, then starts an apocalyptic nuclear world on purpose so that they can perform and study sociological experiments on people for decades, all leading to...to what?...SPACE TRAVEL!! yeah!!, criogenic space travel to...to where?...SOME GREAT PLACE THEY HOPE TO FIND SOMEWHERE!! yeahh baby!! "...ridiculous? like i already mentioned in some previous post, i have no problem with the vaults experiments but to say that they were all part of the gigantic, hundred year old, plan by the enclave leading to criogenic space travel to "somewhere" is just absurd ...no matter how much anyone tries to spin it as just being a matter of tastes (or the lack of it for that matter )...

"buahaha ::twitches moustache:: buahaha" ...i said...again

 

[Trithne]

It's been a while, but I thought they were going to Mars? I mean, it's the 23rd century or so by that time, the Enclave probably has the technology to at least build a bubblecity up there. So the Vault Experiment serves as a way to analyze human behaviour in a confined, controlled environment not unlike that of an offworld colony.

I don't imagine for a second the Enclave planned to take anyone from the Vaults with them, just wanted to see how they acted under different conditions. Most of the Vault experiments in the list are more for comedy's sake than seriousness (The Vault of 40 people and a panther is entirely a creation of Penny-Arcade, for instance.)

But many of the others are far more understandeable in that context. 999 men and 1 woman? Analysis of behaviour in an extreme gender-imbalance. Scientific method at work. Put something through the most rigiourous test and compare to control.

Wether or not the Enclave planned/initiated the nuclear war is another matter. More likely it was considered an inevitability, and thus this plan was put into motion. Less 'muahhaha, we destroy the world and be evil', more 'well, we're fucked, let's make the best of this.'

In that context it makes perfect sense to me, and isn't so much sinister and evil as it self-serving and demonstrative of a lot of the more sane conspiracy ideas. The Enclave is exactly what their name says: An Enclave of the elite of America, using the population to run tests to ensure success of their own plan to leave the shattered Earth behind them.

Pity their spaceship broke.