Was the Master's failure due to his morally good motives?

[Sorrow]

Are you sure?

VD may be rather attached to his humanity and the Master's vault is rather creepy place.

 

[Ausir]

Well, VD is who you want him to be. Some of our Vault Dwellers would join the Master and some would still oppose him.

 

[Sorrow]

I would join the Master to kill the unkillable Overseer .

 

[Brother None]

The reason Master failed was entirely due to a flaw in the FEV-II. If the virus wasn't fatally flawed, the VD would've propably joined the Master.

Well, two things:

1. I'm not talking about direct cause and effect, I'm talking about underlying theme. Is the Master's "place" in the storyline to represent a dead morality?

2. Because the virus is flawed, the VD is actually unnecessary for saving the world. People light forget that.

 

[Kyuu]

The reason Master failed was entirely due to a flaw in the FEV-II. If the virus wasn't fatally flawed, the VD would've propably joined the Master.

That may be the fatal flaw in his plan, but that's not the only issue with it.

Most people would probably be (quite understandably) reluctant to give up their humanity just to be stronger and rad resistant. I sure as hell wouldn't want to turn into a big, green monster just because some crazy blob of flesh thinks it's the only way to "save" the wasteland. I don't think the Vault Dweller would have either, even if there wasn't that flaw with FEV (assuming the Vault Dweller was essentially "good," of course). Even if there weren't such obvious physical changes, there are still many arguments to be made about whether using a virus to "upgrade" humanity would be good either morally or practically.

However "pure" his motives may have been, the Master's methods were certainly neither pure nor moral. 'Course, that may just be the fact that I don't buy "the ends justify the means" mentality talking.

 

[Demonslayer]

I agree with Brother None of course.
I think the major problem about enclave was that they didn't have a interesting background story as the master. As said Van Buren's Presper seemed to have an interesting one as well. Enclave seems to have been putted there like "Well we need some bad guys, let's make something like BoS but evil". Not wanting to sound offensive but Master was playing a role kinda like Noah for the cleansing of the world. Too bad for him that comon sense didn't allow his "means" to get to his "ends" but i guess the same comon sense wouldn't allow the Great Flood as well. It's all about points of view.

 

[Sorrow]

Enclave seems to have been putted there like "Well we need some bad guys, let's make something like BoS but evil".

IMO, Envlave is very different from BoS - it's a personification of the dark side of US government.
Also, I liked the president - he was a good example of common, uninteresting evil. To bad they added the Frank Horrigan - IMO Enclave would be better without him...

 

[Demonslayer]

You're probably right. But when you play a game or watch a movie, you do it to see something out of ordinary, something different, an alternate reality. To see corrupted/evil politician i could role play my own life.

And IMO i'm glad they actually add Frank, i just feel that his role should had been more developed, not just an aperance and a final showdown.

 

[Brother None]

The president is obviously mentally unhinged.

The Enclave simply misses someone who can explain their philosophy and motives in a clear, rational way. There's no way they can explain what they're doing with you, the player, going "these guys is wack, yo!"

Frank Horrigan doesn't add or detract from this, but neither does the president. He's like Anthony Hopkins in the closing argument of Amistad. 15 minutes of inconsistent rambling that you can only look at bemusedly thinking "I bet he has a point somewhere, but damned did he have some shitty script writers."

 

[Sorrow]

I thought that Enclave wanted to recreate a pure mankind on Earth?
IIRC the doctor was the character that provided a clear and rational exposition and could be convinced that he is wrong.

 

[Brother None]

I thought that Enclave wanted to recreate a pure mankind on Earth?
IIRC the doctor was the character that provided a clear and rational exposition and could be convinced that he is wrong.

The doctor and vice president were the expose characters more than the president and Horrigan. They were both uninteresting.

The whole pure mankind concept is so loaded and preposterous given that it's basically just about an invasion of a technologically superior force and mass genocide of everyone else, and wildly unnecessary in the thriving societies of Fallout 2...

 

[Kanhef]

There's another possible course of events that would have the Master be considered "good". The VD could point out the flaws with the current mutants and batch of FEV, but then also say what he learned at the Glow. Some of the earlier FEV strains increased intelligence. With enough research, helped by the records from the Glow and military base, a new strain could be developed that increases brains more than muscles and doesn't cause sterility. With substantial benefits and no real drawbacks, many people would make the transition willingly, achieving the goal of changing humanity to survive in a harsher world.

 

[Snowguy]

K, first off, all strains of FEV are designed to increase intelligence. The problem with the dumb super mutants is due to one of three things:

1. Radiation exposure, which compromises the subject to the full effects of FEV
2. Exposure to diluted FEV, which does the same thing
3. The person was not strong enough to withstand becoming a mutant; his or her mind was weakened as a result.

Secondly, the reason why FEV causes sterility is because it corrects genetic weaknesses. Moreover, any cell in an affected body that does not have a complete set of DNA will be destroyed. And since reproductive cells only carry a half of the DNA of the person, they are destroyed by FEV. This would lead me to believe that it would be very difficult to alter FEV to alter FEV to ignore reproductive cells, if it were possible at all. Personally, I think the Master would be better off trying to develop a brand new agent to use.

My final issue is that not all (or many) people would willingly give up their humanity for a seemingly better existence. As humans are a fickle people, seeing the green, ugly mutants may turn them off. Also, though I may be wrong, I seem to remember that many people died in the vats instead of mutating. That isn't very reassuring. Remember that ghouls can't be helped, either.

 

[Kyuu]

With enough research, helped by the records from the Glow and military base, a new strain could be developed that increases brains more than muscles and doesn't cause sterility. With substantial benefits and no real drawbacks, many people would make the transition willingly, achieving the goal of changing humanity to survive in a harsher world.

As pointed out by Snowguy, FEV by its very nature is going to make a person sterile. The only way you could really change that is to alter the way it works in such a fundamental way that it'd really be something completely different.

No matter whether or not it increases brain functions and muscles, or even doesn't cause sterility, changing into a big, green mutant is enough of a drawback by itself for me, personally. And anyways, humanity seemed to be doing a fine job picking things back up and surviving in the wasteland without the forcible change into a big dumb mutant. Trade was flourishing, large towns were being established, governments were forming. It may be valid to suppose that humanity was just on track to end up back where it was, making the same mistakes, that's rather presumptuous, and I'd say the Master's plan, complete with violent, forcible change to what he perceived was "better" (and the elimination of anything else) was more exemplary of humanity's mistakes than anything else present in the wasteland.

K, first off, all strains of FEV are designed to increase intelligence.

I don't believe that's true. If I remember correctly, the last strain of FEV developed just before the bombs dropped was noted for being more effective in every way except that intelligence seemed to be either unaffected or actually reduced in subjects. Or it may just have been that the increase in intelligence only happened in more "primitive" subjects, and that as they moved up to complex mammals, including humans, its effect on the brain was markedly different. I'll have to check the FO Wiki and see if I can find that part, or perhaps I still have a save with that holotape from the Sierra Army Base (or was it the Glow?).

 

[Snowguy]

K, first off, all strains of FEV are designed to increase intelligence.

I don't believe that's true. If I remember correctly, the last strain of FEV developed just before the bombs dropped was noted for being more effective in every way except that intelligence seemed to be either unaffected or actually reduced in subjects.

While you're right in saying that not all of the subjects or species had increased intelligence, it's really quite obvious that humans CAN have their intelligence increased by FEV, simply using the Lieutenant and Richard Grey as proof.

 

[Ausir]

I don't believe that's true. If I remember correctly, the last strain of FEV developed just before the bombs dropped was noted for being more effective in every way except that intelligence seemed to be either unaffected or actually reduced in subjects. Or it may just have been that the increase in intelligence only happened in more "primitive" subjects, and that as they moved up to complex mammals, including humans, its effect on the brain was markedly different. I'll have to check the FO Wiki and see if I can find that part, or perhaps I still have a save with that holotape from the Sierra Army Base (or was it the Glow?).

Raccoons also became more intelligent, as did some humans (including Grey).

 

[Kyuu]

While you're right in saying that not all of the subjects or species had increased intelligence, it's really quite obvious that humans CAN have their intelligence increased by FEV, simply using the Lieutenant and Richard Grey as proof.

Yes, but they're the exception rather than the rule. The vast majority of mutants were butt-scratching idiots. Though that brings us back to the issue of radiation-contamination being a possible reason for FEV having a negative affect on intelligence.

However, it's far from clear that the Lieutenant's intellect was enhanced. It's possible that his brain was simply not affected by the FEV. And the Master is, very obviously, an exceptional case. He wasn't just dipped, he was submersed for a long period of time, and he nearly ended up as a pile of goo. As it was, he was just a pile of goo with an exceptional intellect and some sort of psychic powers as well.

 

[fallout ranger]

I always assumed that the master was looking for "prime normals" because they were the only ones that could withstand the FEV process without becoming retards. Whether being "prime" is because you are smart or simply radiation free, I'm not sure.

 

[Kyuu]

Whether being "prime" is because you are smart or simply radiation free, I'm not sure.

"Prime normals" were those who hadn't been exposed to the radiation (and mutated FEV?) of the wasteland. That pretty much meant that all the prime normals were those holed up in the vaults.

 

[myzko]

The master is trying to unify the people of the waste by turning them into one, same species a.k.a the giant, green mutant for they proof themselves being tough and able to absorb more radiation than a normie (ghoul is the better rad.sponge).

He is the only end-boss that PC can convince him what is 'wrong' with his plan, beside Kerghan of Arcanum. Truly, a memorable end-boss, he is.

You could convince Kerhan that he's wrong???!


I think that Kergan is the best villain in any computer game by the way