Well THIS is eerily prophetic...

[Severite]

Arguing with this guy about Morrowind is impossible because he's just going to use technicalities in a vain attempt to "prove" that Morrowind is as shallow or more shallow than Skyrim.

Well, we have always been at war with Eurasia.
Seriously though, it's kinda hard comparing all these games. Daggerfall and Morrowind faced some harsh technical limitations of their times and had to involve a lot more abstractions in their gameplay. They're much closer to P&P RPGs due to that, with heavy reliance on random number generation for skill checks and a generally expansive skill system. This is especially evident in Daggerfall, which simply was way too ambitious for the time. They had to tone it down for Morrowind simply because it was clear that such a vast system just doesn't translate well to a real time game. Still, they kept many P&P elements, making the game very clunky from today's perspective.
They toned it down even further with Oblivion while also changing the game mechanics to a more action-oriented style (hits and magic successes are no longer dependent on RNG and skill). The change in game mechanics was a good choice, because let's face it, Morrowind plays like shit. But toning down the skills even more was not really necessary in my opinion.
That trend continued in Skyrim, streamlining the character building while making the game more responsive to play.
The problem here is that with new technologies Oblivion and Skyrim could have focused more on writing and pacing, expanding the questlines into something more deep and involved. But they didn't. Time spent not fighting people on horseback is wasted time according to the Toddler.

Mr. Someguy37, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

>Can't offer an actual counter argument
>resorts to memes
Yeah, great way to kill any sort of validity your post may have had by memeposting.

>Can't offer an actual counter argument
>resorts to memes
Yeah, great way to kill any sort of validity your post may have had by memeposting.

I thought the meme was spot on, why should anyone waste the time to type up something if it is adequately explained by a simple picture. Meme posting is not an autoloss in an argument if the meme fits the situation.

Maybe I am simply old fashioned, or a jerk.....but that's bullshit. It's the same thing as a pithy saying, if you can't be bothered to express your opnion in a cohesive manner, and are simply stating, or giving a picture stating, "your ideas are stupid, and I hate your ideas, product, game, or what have you", the post is a fucking waste of time, both to read, and to post, as it adds no information, context, or really any usable material at all.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Maybe I am simply old fashioned, or a jerk.....but that's bullshit. It's the same thing as a pithy saying, if you can't be bothered to express your opnion in a cohesive manner, and are simply stating, or giving a picture stating, "your ideas are stupid, and I hate your ideas, product, game, or what have you", the post is a fucking waste of time, both to read, and to post, as it adds no information, context, or really any usable material at all.

So you're saying if I said "your ideas are stupid, and I hate your ideas" it's fine, but if I post that with a picture, it's not fine. Got it.

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm not even interested in this line of "discussion."

 

[Hassknecht]

Arguing with this guy about Morrowind is impossible because he's just going to use technicalities in a vain attempt to "prove" that Morrowind is as shallow or more shallow than Skyrim.

Well, we have always been at war with Eurasia.
Seriously though, it's kinda hard comparing all these games. Daggerfall and Morrowind faced some harsh technical limitations of their times and had to involve a lot more abstractions in their gameplay. They're much closer to P&P RPGs due to that, with heavy reliance on random number generation for skill checks and a generally expansive skill system. This is especially evident in Daggerfall, which simply was way too ambitious for the time. They had to tone it down for Morrowind simply because it was clear that such a vast system just doesn't translate well to a real time game. Still, they kept many P&P elements, making the game very clunky from today's perspective.
They toned it down even further with Oblivion while also changing the game mechanics to a more action-oriented style (hits and magic successes are no longer dependent on RNG and skill). The change in game mechanics was a good choice, because let's face it, Morrowind plays like shit. But toning down the skills even more was not really necessary in my opinion.
That trend continued in Skyrim, streamlining the character building while making the game more responsive to play.
The problem here is that with new technologies Oblivion and Skyrim could have focused more on writing and pacing, expanding the questlines into something more deep and involved. But they didn't. Time spent not fighting people on horseback is wasted time according to the Toddler.

There are multiple things going on all at the same time, it makes it difficult to separate what was good, from what was bad, as often, people will tend to associate various systems with things they like. For example, the full rpg, top down, complex, and FULLY WRITTEN, "Balders Gate", as the epitome of a role playing game.

However, I believe without a shadow of a doubt, that a Bethesda style game can not only be a successful rpg, but and amazing one. The FPS gameplay, even the streamlining of the perk system, is not inherently bad, and, between the way the stats seem to be used, even gives a reasonable facsimile of the "I had a life before I showed up here", that Skyrim was missing.

Where the games DO fail, is the complete lack of "true" player agency. To go over another post, and make my point, to progress in Morrowind's mages guild, you actually need to know magic...in Skyrim, and even a greater extant Oblivion, no magic need be known to start the quests, and indeed, you can skate by less then say 10 seconds of total magic use in Skyrim, and its all provided to you anyway, laying there for convenience. You can bludgeon your way as the greatest warrior ever to be seen, and become the guild leader for the mages guild. That breaks my suspension of disbelief. Fuck, why didn't some other has been, walk in and do the same. Or, hell, someone actually skilled in magic run through and do the exact thing that I did, or even use me to insert themselves into power? Bah.

I mourn the loss of consequences to my actions in rpg. The Mass Effect series was certainly not perfect, and had its share of issues, but one thing they did so amazingly well, was make your choices MATTER, which, I'm pretty sure is why the game is so loved, and hailed as an rpg of peerless make.

I think a big issue of the first person real-time gameplay is that it requires a certain amount of skill from the player, as in hand-eye-coordination, and a device that can handle the game without stutters or lags that could destroy the FPS gameplay. But yes, it could work, I guess, even though I don't really see how.

 

[Severite]

Maybe I am simply old fashioned, or a jerk.....but that's bullshit. It's the same thing as a pithy saying, if you can't be bothered to express your opnion in a cohesive manner, and are simply stating, or giving a picture stating, "your ideas are stupid, and I hate your ideas, product, game, or what have you", the post is a fucking waste of time, both to read, and to post, as it adds no information, context, or really any usable material at all.

So you're saying if I said "your ideas are stupid, and I hate your ideas" it's fine, but if I post that with a picture, it's not fine. Got it.

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm not even interested in this line of "discussion."

I recognize that you may not respond, but no, I equated the pithy saying, meme picture, and the "I puke on this subject cause I hate you", all in the same category. I'm not sure how I fouled my message up, ir even if I did, as it seems to read fine to me looking back over it.

Edit: to be explicit, saying that you hate something, without adding to the discussion is pointless, as is attacking others for having a dissimilar viewpoint to the one that you hold. I try to remain open on discussions, indeed, the reason I bother with them at all, is I am human, and capable of missing basic, silly information staring me in the face, that is fueling half cocked and silly understandings on my part.

I welcome criticism to my ideas, and love discussing things I care about, which I'm surenis true of most people.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Sometimes people say something so stupid that the only thing to do is point out how stupid it was and move on.

I have no interest in trying to have a "reasonable" discussion with people who are unreasonable. It would be like trying to debate a table. It is their statements that not only provide nothing to discussion, but detract from discussion by actively sabotaging it either by trolling or downright ignorance.

So no, I'm not going to acknowledge a total shill with anything more than a "that was a stupid thing to say" and move on. Someone who has decided that the dialogue wheel is a good change because Bethesda knows best is not going to welcome new ideas and I'm not going to waste my time.

 

[Severite]

Maybe I am simply old fashioned, or a jerk.....but that's bullshit. It's the same thing as a pithy saying, if you can't be bothered to express your opnion in a cohesive manner, and are simply stating, or giving a picture stating, "your ideas are stupid, and I hate your ideas, product, game, or what have you", the post is a fucking waste of time, both to read, and to post, as it adds no information, context, or really any usable material at all.

So you're saying if I said "your ideas are stupid, and I hate your ideas" it's fine, but if I post that with a picture, it's not fine. Got it.

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm not even interested in this line of "discussion."

Sometimes people say something so stupid that the only thing to do is point out how stupid it was and move on.

I have no interest in trying to have a "reasonable" discussion with people who are unreasonable. It would be like trying to debate a table. It is their statements that not only provide nothing to discussion, but detract from discussion by actively sabotaging it either by trolling or downright ignorance.

So no, I'm not going to acknowledge a total shill with anything more than a "that was a stupid thing to say" and move on. Someone who has decided that the dialogue wheel is a good change because Bethesda knows best is not going to welcome new ideas and I'm not going to waste my time.

Ah. Granted, the oft cited, "then don't post" is usually the next phrase thrown out there, but I won't do you that disservice. I admit, people OFTEN stick to their concept that they came in the door with, and, indeed are trying to prove their "point". Fuck 'em. People who come to a discussion with an agenda on their mind is indeed not worth the effort, nor is the troll who throws their "opinion" out there in the most inflammatory way they can avoid banning with, and quickly vacate. Yeah, if I was going to reply to them at all, it would be to call them out on their crap, before moving on to another part of the discussion.

As far as the fallacy of the current generation of Bethesda titles go:

The thing that gets me, is the game is deeply flawed, and that's a tendency that Bethesda has had for a very long time, the most egregious, for me, is the shitting on the things that make RPGs RPGs, as opposed to any other genre, many of which are perfectly fun, but are NOT RPGs.

Allow me to explain. Would you expect a Cardinal to be able to fly to America, run for President, and succeed in getting elected? And, after being elected, then go on to get a job as a world class surgoen, and, finally, go be a master mechanic? Probably not, yes, for a LOT of reasons. This is the same bull shit that happens in current, as far back as Oblivion, Bethesda titles as a matter of COURSE. Now, I don't everyone to dislike the same things in the same proppirtions as a I do, but can anyone honestly tell me that the above set of circumstances not only make sense, but should be as easy as breathing? The dialogue wheel is limiting, and ties into this "problem", as I see it.

 

[Gizmojunk]

Maybe I am simply old fashioned, or a jerk.....but that's bullshit. It's the same thing as a pithy saying, if you can't be bothered to express your opnion in a cohesive manner, and are simply stating, or giving a picture stating, "your ideas are stupid, and I hate your ideas, product, game, or what have you", the post is a fucking waste of time, both to read, and to post, as it adds no information, context, or really any usable material at all.

I dunno... sometimes reaction gifs are superb (perhaps even the perfect response) ~if thought has been put into them.

(An apropos image in the moment's context, can indeed equal a thousand words ~sometimes.)

Spoiler

The thing that gets me, is the game is deeply flawed, and that's a tendency that Bethesda has had for a very long time, the most egregious, for me, is the shitting on the things that make RPGs RPGs, as opposed to any other genre, many of which are perfectly fun, but are NOT RPGs.

Quite. I find it disturbing that a game like N.O.L.F. 2 (fun shooter that it is) would likely qualify as an RPG to many (if not most) of the recent gaming crowd.