Well THIS is eerily prophetic...

[LiveOnTheEdge]

And you could easily get around that by upping their disposition and your Speechcraft level by money or spells or whatever else, and training up whatever skills were requirements either by doing the grunt work yourself or buying levels through trainers.

Yes. That is a much better system than claiming that you are an Orc Warrior or a Breton Mage and having there be no difference between the two besides how you beat people up in dungeon fetch quests.

Which, again, is a problem with how the game world and NPCs were crafted and not really with the character system. I'd be willing to bet that the world of Skyrim would have been largely the same and would have reacted to you the same even if they used a different character system.

 

[Gizmojunk]

Well why not? Technically in the P&P system your character knows nothing at the start of the game.

Have you not played any PnP games before? I don't know of a single one that starts like that.

Every one of them that I have played starts with a character that has spent a good deal of their early life aspiring towards a vocation [IE. training at it], and have become capable at it ~before going out adventuring. They get better as time goes by, but they start off as fully trained.

Some RPGs start your PC with a Master's degree.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Well why not? Technically in the P&P system your character knows nothing at the start of the game.

Have you not played any PnP games before? I don't know of a single one that starts like that.

Every one of them that I have played starts with a character that has spent a good deal of their early life aspiring towards a vocation, and have become capable at it ~before going out adventuring.

Agreed, in fact most games had clear character creation before you start the game.

 

[LiveOnTheEdge]

In Morrowind people would downright refuse to talk to you if you were a certain type of character. Others would treat you better. Quests were suited to particular character types.

And you could easily get around that by upping their disposition and your Speechcraft level by money or spells or whatever else, and training up whatever skills were requirements either by doing the grunt work yourself or buying levels through trainers.

But thats the cool thing about RPGs, if im a murderer in real life and people heard about me and wanted nothing to do with me that makes sense. If I was savy enough I could work around that though. After all known criminals can still get chicks and a job etc. That's the point of an RPG, there are many ways to do things just like real life. But even then you will never be able to do it all. By your logic, you can get around enemies on an RPG by simply killing them, why not just remove them entirely and let people just get loot. It removes the challenge of the RPG.

And I'm not arguing against the way Morrowind or other RPGs do/did things. Even with the character system in Skyrim none of the rest of that an had to change and the way the world reacted to you didn't have to change, other than certain stat requirements. (Since those were largely eliminated.) Or unless you wanted your character to have a certain role title visibly attached to it in game. (But even then I guess they could have implemented some sort of title system.)

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Im pretty sure joining certain guilds prevented you from doing other guilds meaning 1 character cannot do most of the game.

Nope. You could do
-The Fighters Guild
-Mages Guild
-Thieves Guild
-Tribunal Temple
-Morag Tong
-Imperial cult
-Imperial Legion
-One(possibly two if you used a exploit) of three great houses
-One of the three vampire clans, which shared many of the same quests anyways

In one playthrough of Morrowind.

Yea you are being VERY disingenuous. Morrowind absolutely, undeniably prevents you from doing many quests and joining major factions based on your character and your alignment with other factions. It is actually explained really well in the video in the original post. The second you join one of the Dunmer houses you are on an entirely different path where the other houses will not accept you. You cannot become everything at the same time in one single playthrough of Morrowind. And you certainly cannot be a Werewolf and a Vampire both like in Skyrim.

No, what you are doing is trying to imply that that list of yours is everything in Morrowind. It is not even close.

I try to give you the benefit of the doubt but you are actually implying that one character can experience the entire game of Morrowind in one playthrough. In contrast, Skyrim had one choice - Stormcloaks or Imperials, and any character can do ANYTHING in the game.

 

[Gizmojunk]

Something to consider is that Oblivion is Oblivion, it's not Morrowind 2. This works, and you can see the several Warhammer games that each use the same setting. The mistake Bethesda made was in calling it 'Fallout 3'; the same mistake that Relic would have made by calling their SpacewMarine warhammer title "Dawn of War 3"; and arguably did make with their 'Dawn of War 2' title.

 

[LiveOnTheEdge]

snip

From what I recall, couldn't you join BOTH religious institutions, and become leader of both, despite them being at odds, in Morrowind?

Yeah, I think you could become the leader of all the factions if you were careful about what order you did a certain few quests in. (Other than the three Great Houses. And you were limited to one side in Bloodmoon, and I can't remember about the Tribunal expansion.)

Im pretty sure joining certain guilds prevented you from doing other guilds meaning 1 character cannot do most of the game.

Sometimes you had to do quests in a certain order, such as the Fighters Guild and Thieves Guild (Maybe something with the Morag Tong too) or else you might end up killing somebody you need to advance or join through for another guild.
But other than that I think it was pretty much that you could only join one of the three Great Houses and finish it to the end because it locked you out of the others. (With the exception of that one bug)

 

[Dr Fallout]

snip

From what I recall, couldn't you join BOTH religious institutions, and become leader of both, despite them being at odds, in Morrowind?

Yeah, I think you could become the leader of all the factions if you were careful about what order you did a certain few quests in. (Other than the three Great Houses. And you were limited to one side in Bloodmoon, and I can't remember about the Tribunal expansion.)

Im pretty sure joining certain guilds prevented you from doing other guilds meaning 1 character cannot do most of the game.

Sometimes you had to do quests in a certain order, such as the Fighters Guild and Thieves Guild (Maybe something with the Morag Tong too) or else you might end up killing somebody you need to advance or join through for another guild.
But other than that I think it was pretty much that you could only join one of the three Great Houses and finish it to the end because it locked you out of the others. (With the exception of that one bug)

You have to be careful in which order you do things, so you can do it, but we're forgetting something. YOU NEED TO BE SKILLED IN EACH GUILD'S AREA TO ADVANCE!!!

So a barbarian would fail the thieves guild, and a mage couldn't pass far in the fighters guild.

 

[LiveOnTheEdge]

Again, I will say that I don't know exactly what you mean. On the surface I would say that that is not (and was not) the case, but I'm not sure of what you mean.
I can say that it's nuts to have a stat system and not allow the player to know what they are; they have to know in order to play (and how not to play) as the character.

There is not a technological limitation here; PCs are great with numbers, and stats are nothing compared to even 4 bit graphics.

I'm not sure how to explaine it otherwise. I know I'm probably doing a poor job getting my point across. There's obviously some sort of miscommunication here but I'm not sure what it is. But I guess this is where we are left at.

I disagree because the character system defines how the game agrees or disagrees with the player, on matters of the character. The AI is tertiary, and could be replaced with a pop up that says that they beat the hell out of the PC.
(And be done statistically.)

No it really doesn't. Or it doesn't have to anyway. With this sort of character system, other than the base stats/attributes, to me it seems like a given game world would totally able to react to you in much the same as the other system. If the devs actually do that. I see no reason why it couldn't, besides the noted exceptions.

Fallout allowed the PC to define aptitudes, and start out proficient in something; even FO3 retained a sliver of this.

The only game that I have seen to do 'learn by doing' well, was Lands of Lore:Throne of Chaos; and even then the PCs all had lives leading up to the start of the game, and begin the game as very competent in one area, or reasonably competent in several.

** I would be open and look forward to a Lands of Lore sequel by Bethesda. I might also like their take on a the Palladium Books RIFTS setting. These kind of suit them, where Fallout does not.

*** Incidentally, Lands of Lore:ToC was a first person dungeon crawler with fully voiced PC dialog, and a lot of it; made in 1994; just around the time that development of Fallout was begun.

****Incidentally again... Two years before Fallout, Interplay's big game was a first person adventure with a spell casting, sword wielding warrior, and was fully voiced, and had dual wielded weapons that hit where you targeted. It's called Stonekeep.

And it may have been implemented poorly in Skyrim, but I'm not going to say that the character system is inherently bad. It's just a different way of doing things. You and others obviously prefer a different way, (at least as far as Fallout is concerned, and maybe TES?) but that's just the way it is.

Is that system suited to Fallout? I haven't played Fallout 4 so I personally can't make that judgment yet. I know a lot of you guys say it isn't and wish were otherwise. And it's very possible it's not suited to Fallout.

 

[LiveOnTheEdge]

It's not about liking it but more about common sense. SHOULD a character know nothing at the beginning of the game and have none of his past effect his current and future life? If that is the answer then yes Skyrim would make sense. But the traditional method of creating a character can still be used for this by giving flat stats etc. Ultimately the traditional method still does it better in every way.

I would say the flaw is in the character creation THEN the game really. A better way would be Oblivion which tried to merge defining your character at the start then leveling up what you do etc (although oblivion's one was flawed the idea/concept is there).

Well why not? Technically in the P&P system your character knows nothing at the start of the game. It's just that you spend time at the very start before you get into the meat of the game predetermining all of that. Whereas in with the system Skyrim uses you can think of a certain character you want (if you want) to play as beforehand and then make it a reality as you go through the game by what actions you take and what skills you use and level up. (Granted in Skyrim it's a little simple and probably could have been refined a little more I'm sure, like I said. And the game world/NPCs could have been crafted better to react more to you.)

No in a PnP game your character knows the skills and has the physical and mental stats you are able to give depending on the starting level. In Skyrim you have a character that has gone through life without ANY skills, character, knowledge or flaws.

This is the key difference. There is no way that makes a better/same system in any form to the traditional way of creating a character.

Skyrim would make sense if you started the game from a new born and went forward. Not when you start as a fully grown adult regardless of how well it's done.

Yes, in Skyrim they've pretty much made him a blank slate for you to craft as you go about the world.

 

[LiveOnTheEdge]

Agreed, in Skyrim you were pretty much the same, apart from racial differences. All could stealth, all could cast magic and all could fight all pretty well.

And while it may have been a little easier in Skyrim, you could also pretty much do the same in the other ES games. Or at least form Morrowind on. I haven't really played much of the earlier ones to say anything about them.

 

[LiveOnTheEdge]

Well why not? Technically in the P&P system your character knows nothing at the start of the game.

Have you not played any PnP games before? I don't know of a single one that starts like that.

Every one of them that I have played starts with a character that has spent a good deal of their early life aspiring towards a vocation [IE. training at it], and have become capable at it ~before going out adventuring. They get better as time goes by, but they start off as fully trained.

Some RPGs start your PC with a Master's degree.

Well why not? Technically in the P&P system your character knows nothing at the start of the game.

Have you not played any PnP games before? I don't know of a single one that starts like that.

Every one of them that I have played starts with a character that has spent a good deal of their early life aspiring towards a vocation, and have become capable at it ~before going out adventuring.

Agreed, in fact most games had clear character creation before you start the game.

Which is what I was basically saying. Yes, the "pre-game" is spent making your character and backstory and stats. But that's still part of the game and what you have to do at the start. Unless you're just going to draw from some pile of already made characters or have them assigned to you, or something like that.

 

[LiveOnTheEdge]

You have to be careful in which order you do things, so you can do it, but we're forgetting something. YOU NEED TO BE SKILLED IN EACH GUILD'S AREA TO ADVANCE!!!

So a barbarian would fail the thieves guild, and a mage couldn't pass far in the fighters guild.

And like I said, you can raise all of your skills up to the required level. It is absolutely possible to do in Morrowind. And again, as I've said, you may have difficulty (at least for a while) depending on what you chose as major/minor/misc skills.

 

[Dr Fallout]

snip

From what I recall, couldn't you join BOTH religious institutions, and become leader of both, despite them being at odds, in Morrowind?

Yeah, I think you could become the leader of all the factions if you were careful about what order you did a certain few quests in. (Other than the three Great Houses. And you were limited to one side in Bloodmoon, and I can't remember about the Tribunal expansion.)

Im pretty sure joining certain guilds prevented you from doing other guilds meaning 1 character cannot do most of the game.

Sometimes you had to do quests in a certain order, such as the Fighters Guild and Thieves Guild (Maybe something with the Morag Tong too) or else you might end up killing somebody you need to advance or join through for another guild.
But other than that I think it was pretty much that you could only join one of the three Great Houses and finish it to the end because it locked you out of the others. (With the exception of that one bug)

You have to be careful in which order you do things, so you can do it, but we're forgetting something. YOU NEED TO BE SKILLED IN EACH GUILD'S AREA TO ADVANCE!!!

So a barbarian would fail the thieves guild, and a mage couldn't pass far in the fighters guild.

And like I said, you can raise all of your skills up to the required level. It is absolutely possible to do in Morrowind. And again, as I've said, you may have difficulty (at least for a while) depending on what you chose as major/minor/misc skills.

It's possible but it's also tough unless you make a jack of all trades class. And to do most factions you have to know what to do in the exact order.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

And like I said, you can raise all of your skills up to the required level. It is absolutely possible to do in Morrowind. And again, as I've said, you may have difficulty (at least for a while) depending on what you chose as major/minor/misc skills.

It's possible to do in the same way it's possible to kill 10,000 boars in World of Warcraft to level up. It's not meant to be played that way, but at the same time if you really wanted to play that way you can. Which is why it's a great game.

 

[LiveOnTheEdge]

Im pretty sure joining certain guilds prevented you from doing other guilds meaning 1 character cannot do most of the game.

Nope. You could do
-The Fighters Guild
-Mages Guild
-Thieves Guild
-Tribunal Temple
-Morag Tong
-Imperial cult
-Imperial Legion
-One(possibly two if you used a exploit) of three great houses
-One of the three vampire clans, which shared many of the same quests anyways

In one playthrough of Morrowind.

Yea you are being VERY disingenuous. Morrowind absolutely, undeniably prevents you from doing many quests and joining major factions based on your character and your alignment with other factions. It is actually explained really well in the video in the original post. The second you join one of the Dunmer houses you are on an entirely different path where the other houses will not accept you. You cannot become everything at the same time in one single playthrough of Morrowind. And you certainly cannot be a Werewolf and a Vampire both like in Skyrim.

No, what you are doing is trying to imply that that list of yours is everything in Morrowind. It is not even close.

I try to give you the benefit of the doubt but you are actually implying that one character can experience the entire game of Morrowind in one playthrough. In contrast, Skyrim had one choice - Stormcloaks or Imperials, and any character can do ANYTHING in the game.

In Morrowind, you actually can do all he listed there. He, and I, listed you can only do one of the three Great Houses on a single character. I forgot about the vampires completely, but he said you can only do one. But you can do the vampire quests, (for whatever bloodline you were) and then cure your self of vampirism and then become a werewolf in Bloodmoon and do all of the werewolf quests. (But then miss out on the East Empire Company quests.) But you cannot be both at the same time. And then you can't be a vampire again afterwards. (Though you might be able to use Hircine's Ring and sort of be a werewolf at the same time as a vampire. I can't remember if that's actually possible so it may not work that way.)

 

[Dr Fallout]

And like I said, you can raise all of your skills up to the required level. It is absolutely possible to do in Morrowind. And again, as I've said, you may have difficulty (at least for a while) depending on what you chose as major/minor/misc skills.

It's possible to do in the same way it's possible to kill 10,000 boars in World of Warcraft to level up. It's not meant to be played that way, but at the same time if you really wanted to play that way you can. Which is why it's a great game.

Grinding is still pretty boring.

 

[LiveOnTheEdge]

It's possible but it's also tough unless you make a jack of all trades class. And to do most factions you have to know what to do in the exact order.

It's really only a few instances you need to have beforehand knowledge about what quests to do before other. But yeah, it can end up locking you out of one or two factions if you don't know.

And like I said, you can raise all of your skills up to the required level. It is absolutely possible to do in Morrowind. And again, as I've said, you may have difficulty (at least for a while) depending on what you chose as major/minor/misc skills.

It's possible to do in the same way it's possible to kill 10,000 boars in World of Warcraft to level up. It's not meant to be played that way, but at the same time if you really wanted to play that way you can. Which is why it's a great game.

It pretty much is meant to be played that way, at least in Morrowind, if somebody wants to play it that way. And if they don't then it's meant to be played that way too. That's sort of been the shtick (to a certain extent) with TES games, or at least since Morrowind. I can't comment on the earlier ones.

Grinding is still pretty boring.

Which is why you can buy those skill upgrades. But you might have to grind for money I guess so that might be a moot point.

 

[Someguy37]

it's possible but it's also tough unless you make a jack of all trades class. And to do most factions you have to know what to do in the exact order.

There is no order you need to do any of them besides Thieves Guild and Fighters guilds.

snip

Actually
A. You cannot be a werewolf and Vampire at the same time in Skyrim, unless you use a bug
B. You CAN be a werewolf and a vampire at the same time in Morrowind, if you use a bug
C. I never implied you could do everything in one playthrough of Morrowind, I even EXPLCITLY said you could only do ONE of THREE Great Houses and Vampire clans.

So, everything you just said was wrong.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

it's possible but it's also tough unless you make a jack of all trades class. And to do most factions you have to know what to do in the exact order.

There is no order you need to do any of them besides Thieves Guild and Fighters guilds.

snip

Actually
A. You cannot be a werewolf and Vampire at the same time in Skyrim, unless you use a bug
B. You CAN be a werewolf and a vampire at the same time in Morrowind, if you use a bug
C. I never implied you could do everything in one playthrough of Morrowind, I even EXPLCITLY said you could only do ONE of THREE Great Houses and Vampire clans.

So, everything you just said was wrong.

Implying that the questing, factions, and options in Morrowind are even close to later Elder Scrolls games is disingenuous, and that is me using a polite word for it. That list is not nearly the entire game, and your purpose in making it was to try to prove that you could do almost everything in Morrowind the same way a single character can do everything in Skyrim, which is an outright lie to begin with.