What Fallout 4 should've included

I really really loved playing Mankind Divided...for the eight or so hours it allowed me to.

I'd rate it a 9 out of 10 or maybe an 8.5.

I really liked playing Fallout 4 for 100 or so hours.

This is my idea for how I'd love the game to play as much as I did the previous games (which I played 400 hours or so each).
You're comparing time investment with fulfillment. Fallout 4 can be fun at times, but its not a fulfilling game. It's just a game you sink hours into to complete the same repetitive goals. Compare that to New Vegas or Fallout 2, each which could take a significant amount of time to complete but had a wide range of different quests you could complete and an in depth story that had you invested until completion. That's the main difference between a 10/10 game like New Vegas or Fallout 2 and a 4 or 5/10 game like Fallout 4. It's about how fulfilling those hours were, not how many they squeezed out of you due to required repetition and radiant quests.
 
Late on the subject, sorry. Little things that would have been interesting, other than a script doctor to proof read the story. I may have already submitted them elsewhere on the forum, not really sure. If so, sorry for the repetition. But anyway :

1 - Play as a reporter. Interview important people from various factions, and write articles using the dialog system, basically like you do in the actual game with Piper. Several times. With the possibility of taking sides, which change how NPCs react and comment to the factions, through their idle lines, scripted events, barter prices and quest givers. Depict the BoS as invaders, or praise them as saviors. Deny the existence of Synths, or at the contrary, show proofs of their activities. Use a camera as a weapon. You're in the middle of a war, you could use your gun... but you could also take the risk of using your camera instead. That gives variety. A moral choice. The possibility to play a peaceful character while engaging in violent situations. A new and original way to have a direct effect on the world around you, other than just doing quests. A reason for meeting important people from the factions (interview them). This system replaces the karma system. Instead of your own karma, you now manage the karma of factions.

2 - Make Synths buggy. Don't ask us "do machines have souls?" if it's only to shove a definitive answer down our throats until we choke on it... No, instead, ask the question, and let us decide. Let us doubt. Yes, synths dream, but it's always the same dream, over and over again. Yes, they show empathy, but they also suddenly bug and change their entire personalities. Valentine is helpful, but he often gets "blue screens" by sending you on cases he solved decades ago, by forgetting who you are, by shuffling same answers etc. The Institute's courser "likes" bad actions, then suddenly "hates" them. Curie runs to a guard to say you kidnapped her, all of a sudden, because she suddenly forgot who you are when her OS rebooted. In other words, make us doubt, so that we can think and form our own answer.

3 - Give the Institute a biological Artificial Intelligence, running on biological organs. A biomass acting as a central CPU, capable of dealing with abstract concepts. That would be an interesting achievement, and show that the Institute actually has the potential of doing something.

4 - Replace Ghouls with Institute's test subjects. Humans screaming in pain and sorrow, electronic parts popping from their skin, cables in their organs, rusty bionics at their limbs etc. Excellent salvaging/loot source if you're looking for mechanical/electronic parts, but it would require you to ignore their pleas for help as they charge you. Gives the Institute a whole different aura, brings a new kind of enemy, enhances the thematics and is way more original than zombies.

5 - Like in Silent Hill 2, these new "ghouls" disturb your pipboy's radio, making it actually useful, gameplay wise. When it goes all creepy and scratchy, these guys are around. Makes the dungeons actually scary.

6 - Replace jazz with Irish folk music from the 50-60's. Replace caps with baseball cards.

7 - Travis is a quest giver. You can bring him tapes, which will then be played in the radio. The radio's playlist expands because of your actions, and you can actually personalize it by choosing to bring jazz, classical or folk music to Travis, depending on your taste.

8 - Super Mutants are war refugees from the Capital Wasteland, instead of Institute's test subjects. Many are accepted in settlements, working in farms, as bodyguards etc. Some others want to regroup and go back to war. They recruit. That's right. Super Mutants recruit humans, and they actually run gangs.

9 - Move the Institute away from the CIT. They are under the glowing sea, where they are actually safe. People have dug the CIT, and they found nothing. All the same, move Virgil away from the commonwealth. You have to lure him to make him come back, by broadcasting a signal through radio towers you have to find and fix.

10 - The Commonwealth is empty and has raiders because it's in quarantine. There's a plague going on. A plague that affects mechanical and biological. A mechanical virus, that makes the machines... evolve. The disease is carried by Synths. There's now a reason why robots have personalities, and now there's a clear reason why people are terrified of synths : they are their dead loved ones, walking the earth, spreading a plague. Against their will, of course. Plague was released by the Institute's AI.
Know what that implies with Liberty Prime, right ? He could get SICK. Turn against its creators... Or become something even better. Is that a risk you're willing to take ? Is that heresy, according to the brotherhood's codex? Witness theological discussions about the subject. Settle an actual theological crisis within the Brotherhood, like the one between the orthodox and the catholics about the icons.

11 - The T60 is a BoS invention now. And it's a mix between the Enclave Armor and the Brotherhood's. Why ? Because of the game's cover. It now features this new armor, like in all previous titles, but this one hints that maybe the Brotherhood has become the very thing they fought against.

12 - The railroad doesn't just act for Synths : it smuggles goods through the quarantine lines. They have the best equipped traders of the game, for that reason, but they also put the country at risk, with their constant breakings of the quarantine law. That gives the players the possibility to join them, not by ideals, but by greed for better equipment and easy money. Same goes for the Institute : you could join them, not only because of their ideals, but because they can make a Synth out of your wife's dead body. With all her memories intact. Won't even know she's a synth. But they need your help beforehand.
Gives the player more freedom and roleplay, even when joining factions defined by ideologies.

13 - Gunners are mercenaries working for the Ronto's industrial conglomerate. Their mission is to seize the commonwealth's factories.

14 - Mama Murphy is no longer a member of the Minutemen. She is a travelling prophet, worshipped by raiders. When she is around, raiders are pacified and will not attack unless provoked. You can manipulate her and use her, for actual, direct gameplay. You could use her aura to prepare a surprise assault on a raider's camp, for example. Oh, and 50% of her "prophecies" are simply false. Make us doubt about her powers, instead of throwing magic into our face because "the story demands it".

15 - There are pre-established settlements, now, occupied by raiders. Some missions for the Minutemen consist in assaulting the cities, free the hostage, and be careful with the hostages. Depending on the civilian casualties during the assaults, the citizen could slowly come to love the Minutemen, or hate them! At some point, the gunners even stage a full massacre signed by the Minutemen, to lower their reputation. You, as a reporter, cover the event, and show it under the light you choose. Gunners could pay you to tell their lies... Will you be a corrupted journalist, or a moral one ?

16 - Add a new raider faction to the level list : the vault rangers. They are like the Stalkers from Metro 2033, scavengers roaming the surface, gathering material and goods for their vault. They are extremely aggressive, shoot on sight with modern firearms, and wear Hazmat suits with the typical blue/yellow pattern.

17 - Piper is not a companion. She's a quest giver, an important political figure (as she prints magazines and the local money, aka baseball cards). She runs for mayor. She has a bodyguard, a smart Super Mutant. She is important, influential, smart, and possibly manipulative, depending on the point of view. She doesn't want to "reveal da truth", she wants to impose her truth, by all means necessary.

18 - Show Maxson's bionic augmentations. His brain is connected with cables. Hint that maybe, he too could get corrupted by the Institute's plague. Or maybe, his actions are guided by the calculator ? Make us doubt about the truth of his faith and his orders, only to reveal that no, he has never been corrupted, neither by the Institute's AI nor by the Calculator. He's simply a zealot.
Paradoxally, he's just human. Despite his bionic nature.
That enhances the thematic of the game : when a man's nastiness paradoxally becomes a proof of his soul.

19 - Maxson is not backed by the Californian BoS anymore. He is backed by the Midwest Brotherhood. They agreed with Lyons' views, and have every reason to push Maxson into action against the Institute. They have the calculator. They are afraid that the Institute could reach it at some point, and make it do things. You never see them. You just know that they are here. Fans cry in joy, and Todd can tell us sweet stories about a potential DLC with the Midwest, which would never happen of course.
However, you do witness the end of a communication between Maxson and a holographic screen showing the calculator. The calculator talks down to him. Gives a whole new perspective to his authority, and his free will.

20 - Diamond City has metal detectors at the entrance, and guards randomly "test" you with metal detector devices, giving a layer of paranoia into the game.

21 - Curie is not "a companion". You are her companion. Her quest is objectively 100x more important than yours. She could heal everyone. She's a tribal legend, the "the angel of steel" that heals people with her hands. She may not even exist, until you realize that she's more than a myth. And when you meet her, your mission is to protect her until she reaches the EPA's facility, where she can find all the plants she needs to make new meds.

22 - You don't get to bring Hancock into Diamond City, or your Synths companions under the nose of an high elder. If you try, the guards/paladins stop you and throw you into jail. Can't believe the jail system from TES wasn't implemented into Fallout 4, especially considering that the prison was actually made into the game, and served zero purpose.

23 - Cleaning Cait's blood from chems is only the first step of her recovery. You'll have frequent speech check afterwards to motivate her and convince her not to take chems again. Because cleaning the blood from chems don't do shit for addiction, it's just the first step. And because it would give speech more value, while adding more "life" and interactivity to your relationship with her.
As for dogmeat, you have to actually train the dumb mut so that he can track smells, bring objects and do tricks. At the beginning, he's almost feral and he actually bites you several times. Your choice, either to beat him or to be a good master and help the dog recover from his trauma (he's no longer Mama Murphy's dog, in this version.). You need to find trainers to help you train him, which leads to interesting, yet light moments of interaction.

These ideas keep the current storyline almost untouched, and don't require to change the setting or to do radical changes in the script, except for the radio thing.
 
Last edited:
While I like some of your things, others confuse me.

1. Wouldn't your statements make the Institute look like poor scientists with malfunctioning Synths.
2. Wouldn't the ghoul experiments make them look purely evil?
3. Why wouldn't the Commonwealth have Raiders?
4. The Psychic Powers of Mama Murphy were in Fallout 1 as the Master had Psychic Powers. Also, the Shaman in Fallout 2.
5. I dislike Piper not being a romance option or companion. She's an investigative reporter. You might as well not have her be a character as you take everything about her.
6. Medicine is already advanced enough to repair any injury in the Commonwealth. Curie's abilities will not be that impressive.
 
I confess, I do think Obsidian was making fun of the Raiders of Fallout 3 with the fiends.

"Why do they act like Capital Wasteland raiders?"
Even then, one could say that the fiends are simply defending their land and their drug fueled, tribal culture against a foreign invador, coming to take their turf, their resources, and force them to change their way of life. There's a reason why they are so eager to help Caesar : they believe that he's their only hope for preserving their identity, as fucked up as it is.
Manifest destiny and the moral aspect of bringing civilization to tribes is a recurrent theme in Fallout. Even as mindless monsters, Fiends actually highlight the subplot of the game. Even if I salute the effort that Bethesda made, by giving raiders idle lines hinting their dilemmas and humanity, they don't bring much to the plot, the thematics or anything of the sort. But I've heard that Nuka World's are different kinds of raiders, so that's nice.

1. Wouldn't your statements make the Institute look like poor scientists with malfunctioning Synths.
As opposed to the current situation, where they are actual poor scientists with malfunctioning Synths ? In my version, they brought evolution to machines, and they made an AI capable of dealing with abstract concepts. That'd be two amazing accomplishments in science, whereas in Fallout 4, they accomplished nothing that wasn't already made before.

2. Wouldn't the ghoul experiments make them look purely evil?
As opposed to releasing Super Mutants, replacing folks and scrapping settlements ? We have to picture them as purely evil, only to be in doubt when we see them. That's the original idea, and I think it should be kept.

3. Why wouldn't the Commonwealth have Raiders?
Normally, they wouldn't have, because there wouldn't be anything left to raid since a century. However, in my version, the plague situation + the quarantine provoked hunger, movements of population and civil unrest. A good reason for raiders to appear : people have fled Boston while leaving a lot of things behind them, and other are hungry and trying to find food and shelter. Good context for raiding.

4. The Psychic Powers of Mama Murphy were in Fallout 1 as the Master had Psychic Powers. Also, the Shaman in Fallout 2.
True indeed. But the Master had a reason : he was a superior being, millenias of evolution ahead of humanity. Mama Murphy is not. True, there was the Shaman in Fallout 2, but he couldn't see the future. Neither did the Master, because if they did, then it would mean that the hero has a destiny. If he/has, then, free will doesn't exist. Which seems problematic for a game defined by the total freedom of your actions.
And then, I don't remove Mama Murphy's powers, I just make them less reliable, so that we have a legitimate reason to ignore her, or to choose to listen to her. It's a thing to have a possible hint, it's another thing when Mama Murphy throws the exact Courser desactivation sequence from her jet induced dream. Seems cheap to me.

5. I dislike Piper not being a romance option or companion. She's an investigative reporter. You might as well not have her be a character as you take everything about her.
She'd be a romance option though. And she'd still be a reporter, led by ideals etc. She'd just be more "grounded", relying on contacts and field reporters (aka : the player character) rather than being on the field herself, which puts the whole press industry + her family into immediate danger. She was a field reporter before, but now, she has responsibilities and a lot of enemies.

Medicine is already advanced enough to repair any injury in the Commonwealth. Curie's abilities will not be that impressive.
Injuries, true (even then, I doubt that many people have access to autodocs. Caesar has one, but apparently, it's still a rare technology and it requires a high skill of medecine to perform surgery with it). But sickness, that's another issue. There's a reason why the followers of the apocalypse are so influential and respected in the wasteland. People get sick, people don't have access to basic meds, and radiations/FEV clearly don't help. Something like Curie would be litteraly worshipped as a goddess/saint in several communities. Which would highlight the main thematic again : many people hate synths, but quite a lot of folks also agree to see one of them as a saint.
 
Good points but one last bit.

Normally, they wouldn't have, because there wouldn't be anything left to raid since a century. However, in my version, the plague situation + the quarantine provoked hunger, movements of population and civil unrest. A good reason for raiders to appear : people have fled Boston while leaving a lot of things behind them, and other are hungry and trying to find food and shelter. Good context for raiding.

There's a lot of settlements to raid in the Commonwealth, way more than in the Capital Wasteland. The Seven Samurai also show Raiders robbing villagers with even less than the ones in the Commonwealth.
 
Good points but one last bit.



There's a lot of settlements to raid in the Commonwealth, way more than in the Capital Wasteland. The Seven Samurai also show Raiders robbing villagers with even less than the ones in the Commonwealth.
Because the law system provided them immunity for their action, at least at some points of Japan's history. Same goes for medieval knights, many turned raiders, but they had a legitimate reason : either it was because they weren't allowed to get paid (which forced many to pillage farms and roads), or because they helped attacking supply lines in times of war, like La Hire before he met Joan of Arc.
As much as raiders are needed in Fallout, I don't like the idea of a society still relying on extorsion and pillaging two centuries after the bombs fell. At some point, raiders would have been dealt with, or would have formed an actual society, like the Khans did. Hell, look at Immortan Joe in Fury Road. One generation after the war, already a functional trade system with other warlords, a defined rule of law, clear social ranks, an industry and a spiritual grip on his subjects. That's what I think would happen, in such situations. Give it two more generations, and that's a civilization on the birth. A shitty one, but still a society.
If raiders are still just surviving and living on the back of terrified settlers, there needs to be a reason. Recent dramas such as a war or a plague would justify it, and even explain why Boston/Concord are not full of people. But then again, that's just my vision of things, could all be terrible ideas for all I know.
 
Because the law system provided them immunity for their action, at least at some points of Japan's history. Same goes for medieval knights, many turned raiders, but they had a legitimate reason : either it was because they weren't allowed to get paid (which forced many to pillage farms and roads), or because they helped attacking supply lines in times of war, like La Hire before he met Joan of Arc.

Banditry has been a large part of human history and still is in many parts of the world. Warlordism is a very common thing in parts of Africa, Afghanistan, and now parts of the Middle East. The Wild West certainly had many cases of "road-agents" and other robberies--albeit not as much as cinema depicts.

As much as raiders are needed in Fallout, I don't like the idea of a society still relying on extorsion and pillaging two centuries after the bombs fell. At some point, raiders would have been dealt with, or would have formed an actual society, like the Khans did. Hell, look at Immortan Joe in Fury Road. One generation after the war, already a functional trade system with other warlords, and that's what I think would happen, in such situations. Give it two more generations, and that's a civilization on the birth. A shitty one, but still a society.

While it was a popular theory that the Raiders of the Capital Wasteland were descendants of the Vault, the Raiders of the Commonweath don't appear to be societies but gangs in the Crips and Bloods sense. Nuka World does explain, however, small that Raider gangs are just regular people from the Commonwealth who decide the backbreaking work of farming and production isn't worth the effort when you can just buy a gun and take from other people.

The terminals in Libertalia show a tragic view of the situation but it's not a case of tribal culture or breakaway civilizations so much as ordinary criminal activity. Wherever there is poverty, there's highwaymen and robbery.

If raiders are still just surviving and living on the back of terrified settlers, there needs to be a reason. Recent dramas such as a war or a plague would justify it, and even explain why Boston/Concord are not full of people. But then again, that's just my vision of things, could all be terrible ideas for all I know.

I believe the reason is "caps."

I admit, I do find the Gunners annoying for this very reason. The Gunners ARE a culture and appear to be Raiding for no reason at all.
 
mithrap, you have some great ideas, but I have a few comments:

1 - Play as a reporter.
How about roleplaying options in general, like, for example a scientist? And not just that, but how about playing as a scientist with multiple possible dimensions:

A meek biologist, seeking glory
A two-fisted physicist with an altruistic streak
A mad scientist obsessed with studying the new world
A doctor who wants to heal the Commonwealth rather than slaughter it's entire population.
..etc.

Beth isn't interested in offering even one dimension of roleplay (e.g. reporter/scientist/soldier/diplomat, etc.), but in my ideal world they'd offer at least the occasional choice or dialog to support multiple dimensions of RP.

As for karma or other changes, anything that restricts roleplaying even more is a bad idea, IMO. We need expansion in that area.

4 - Replace Ghouls with Institute's test subjects.
Not against it, but I don't think this would effect any real change in the game. It would be more like a texture reskin with a few lines of dialog and/or some terminal messages.

7 - Travis is a quest giver. You can bring him tapes, which will then be played in the radio. The radio's playlist expands because of your actions, and you can actually personalize it by choosing to bring jazz, classical or folk music to Travis, depending on your taste.

8 - Super Mutants are war refugees from the Capital Wasteland, instead of Institute's test subjects. Many are accepted in settlements, working in farms, as bodyguards etc. Some others want to regroup and go back to war. They recruit. That's right. Super Mutants recruit humans, and they actually run gangs.
Love both of these.

10 - The Commonwealth is empty and has raiders because it's in quarantine.
Don't get this one. One of the few things that doesn't need explaining is raiders. Already being talked about though.

10 - There's a plague going on. A plague that affects mechanical and biological. A mechanical virus, that makes the machines... evolve. The disease is carried by Synths.
This is Biowarian space magic, and it would make me crazy. Fallout is about SCIENCE, but there's still certain rules, like you don't expect to find out that the moon is made out of cheese.

And Beth can't handle androids, despite years of Asimov, Philip K. Dick (or even Ridley Scott), and many others offering intelligent takes on the subject. Bringing deep fantasy into the mix is just asking for disaster, unless you're hoping for a "so bad it's good" result. But who knows, maybe that's the best we can hope for.

14 - Mama Murphy is no longer a member of the Minutemen. She is a travelling prophet, worshipped by raiders.
Makes her more interesting.

15 - There are pre-established settlements, now, occupied by raiders. Some missions for the Minutemen consist in assaulting the cities...
Fine idea but doesn't add anything to the game (reminds me of the Civil War Overhaul for Skyrim). I would like to see smarter, deeper quests, not more body count. In a way, it's like adding new guns. While potentially cool, it doesn't address anything that's actually wrong.

Most of your ideas could realistically be realized as mods.
 
Some actual serious ideas WITHOUT rewriting the game.

1. Extend the opening sequence just a bit: Reveal that Sanctuary Hills is a place which the Sole Survivor is worried about being kicked out of. They will talk about the food rationing (only Sugar Bombs is available and powdered eggs), no fuel for the car, thieves robbing the houses, and other stuff. Make it so the family is genuinely happy with their new child but it's going to be very challenging since he's no longer in the military (the military being the only people taken care of in the land).

2. Confront Shaun about his cruelties: You have the option of confronting Shaun about the Super Mutants, the Synth replacements, and other material. If you don't have a great speech check, he'll kick you out of the Institute but if you do have a good speech check, Shaun will turn over the Institute to you directly and submit to whatever judgement you want to give him.

3. Continuity Tweeks

* Jet is replaced with Buffout in the Vault which mentions it.
* Mention the Lone Wanderer among the BoS.
* Power Armor T-60 is an invention of the Institute and didn't exist Pre-War.
* Have only one suit of X-01 armor in the entirety of the main game.
* Mention the Institute is a mile beneath the surface of the Commonwealth and have an elevator be
revealed by Liberty Prime or the shaft.

4. More History of the Commonwealth

Reveal that the Commonwealth of Allied States actually successfully existed for a few decades after the Great War. However, the CAS eventually went to war with the Institute after a negotiation went bad and they attacked their surface colonies. The CAS was destroyed in the resulting war as the Institute became isolationalist.

Also, reveal the Institute has been keeping the region from recovering out of fear.

5. Muddy the Consciousness Business

Codsworth and Curie are Robobrains in Mister Handy shells. It turns out the RobCo factory released a line of older models with RoboBrains. This applies to other droids like Captain Ironsides and other intelligent types. The other robots are very clearly non-sentient with Synths being the first non-ZAX computers to have artificial intelligence.

However, make it clear that they're very restrained by their programming and if you talk to Patriot (who is now a middle aged man "Married" to a Synth) that they won't run away whatsoever if they're not sabotaged. The player character has the option of using his INT and SCIENCE score to remove the problem from Synths.

Without Patriot, there's never been a rogue Synth.

6. Brotherhood of Steel Optional Objective

During the destruction of the Institute, Elder Maxson orders you to download the entirety of the Institute's scientific records. Elder Maxson is furious if you blow up the Institute without seizing all of their records.

7. Peace Option

Have the option of offering to make a truce with the Brotherhood of Steel and Railroad with the Institute. This will require promising to cease to create Synths or release all the ones who want to leave. The final mission in that game will be a revolt from within the Institute which you have to put down instead. You can also make a peace treaty between the Railroad and Brotherhood where they team up against the Institute.

8. Ending Slides

You will be able to go to the Memory Den and see a projected dream of how the Commonwealth will probably go at any time. This will includes slides for every major quest you have completed and be updated as the game goes.

9. Sympathy for the Raider

There's a few (not many but a few) sympathetic Raider factions which warn you not to come closer and only turn hostile if you visit their base. You can also buy your way in like Paradise Falls. This includes the Food Storage Facility, Libertalia, Combat Zone, The Corvega Auto Plant, and the Racetrack.

There's also a Raider Faction quest where you can take over Raider Settlements for gang you can join in the Food Storage Facility. This opens up the Raider ending where you blow up the Institute.

10. Minutemen Quests

If you get all the settlements for the Minutemen, they get better weapons, armor, and show up across the Commonwealth. The radiant quests are given by the a member of the Minutemen rather than Preston
Garvey.

11. Make Settlements Optional

Sanctuary Hills starts getting repaired even without you. Everything else doesn't affect the game.

12. Remove Settlement Attacks

Period.
 
1. Extend the opening sequence just a bit: Reveal that Sanctuary Hills is a place which the Sole Survivor is worried about being kicked out of. They will talk about the food rationing (only Sugar Bombs is available and powdered eggs), no fuel for the car, thieves robbing the houses, and other stuff. Make it so the family is genuinely happy with their new child but it's going to be very challenging since he's no longer in the military (the military being the only people taken care of in the land).
That. Clearly. Problem with the opening sequence, it defines Sanctuary as the hero's comfort zone, and vault 111 as the "out of the comfort zone" moment. Problem is, you get back to Sanctuary in 10 minutes, and you are welcomed by a friendly face and a beautiful sun. You're back right into your comfort zone, and the game has just started. That causes a huge problem in the narrative. Any story is about someone leaving the comfort zone, not securing it.
Also, the lack of civil unrest defines pre-war America as the perfect place/time to be, for the hero, something to recreate and fight for. Problem is, I don't think that Fallout has ever been a story about "Murica fuck yeah". Kind of misses the whole point of the story, which is about dealing with the errors of the past in a brand new society.

* Jet is replaced with Buffout in the Vault which mentions it.
* Mention the Lone Wanderer among the BoS.
* Power Armor T-60 is an invention of the Institute and didn't exist Pre-War.
* Have only one suit of X-01 armor in the entirety of the main game.
* Mention the Institute is a mile beneath the surface of the Commonwealth and have an elevator be
revealed by Liberty Prime or the shaft.
indeed.gif


If you get all the settlements for the Minutemen, they get better weapons, armor, and show up across the Commonwealth. The radiant quests are given by the a member of the Minutemen rather than Preston
Garvey.
Aka, the real general that you could overthrow at the end of the Minutemen storyline.
I hate how Bethesda always plays on the messianic trope in their titles, making you a unique snowflake for no reason. It was already cringy in Skyrim where you could become praetor or leader of the companions in 1-2 hours (without any single responsibility, mind me) but here, you become general in ten minutes. And with that, Institute's President and Brotherhood's Sentinel. Which is way beyond ridiculous, and is a cheap way of caressing the ego of 10 years old players by telling them how much of a badass they are. If you want to become the boss, okay, but at least work for it, deserve it. Get through trials and when you finally get the title, get responsibilities too. You know that even as a general, you cannot order Preston to dedicate his efforts into the teleporter before you helped enough settlements ? You give him a freaking order, and he says "no" to your face before sending you to another settlement. If you were truly a general, Preston would be shot on the spot for disobeying a direct order in times of war.
Same for the brotherhood, how could you pretend having a high military title while leaving active duty whenever you want to grow crops in Sanctuary ? If anything, that's desertion in the time of active conflict.

Remove Settlement Attacks
Period.
Or make them good, and not that intrusive.

How about roleplaying options in general, like, for example a scientist? And not just that, but how about playing as a scientist with multiple possible dimensions:

A meek biologist, seeking glory
A two-fisted physicist with an altruistic streak
A mad scientist obsessed with studying the new world
A doctor who wants to heal the Commonwealth rather than slaughter it's entire population.
..etc.
Of course. But then, a reporter could be like the New Vegas' couriers : while it does defines your character's profession, it also leaves a lot of room for roleplay. And I think that Fallout could have accomplished what "Beyond good and evil" tried to do years ago, with the limits of its time/engine. Like the idea of switching to a camera as primary "weapon". But clearly, it's hard to play a science suavy guy, or hell, even a peaceful lawyer (which is what you are actually supposed to be, if playing as a female), since you are forced into a warrior kind of guy no matter what you do. "You get to be whoever you want" was a sentence I clearly remember in the E3 presentation... Yeah, as long as "whoever you want" is a psychopath warrior with messianic issues.

Not against it, but I don't think this would effect any real change in the game. It would be more like a texture reskin with a few lines of dialog and/or some terminal messages.
Sure, even a modder could do it today. I'm sure that Dragbody could rig SOMA's 3D models and use Half Life's zombie sound effects, and a few edits to the loot level list. While it's really not much else than a retexture, at least, it brings something new to the table instead of just "lol, ghouls again". And it brings a moral aspect to the shooting/looting automatism, since you could actually feel bad/good for putting them out of their misery and scavenge them for parts.

Most of your ideas could realistically be realized as mods.
That's the whole point. Show that the game could have been totally different with little details, without changing a thing in the current engine/setting or even general storyline. If modders can do it for free, there's simply no excuses for a big studio with seven years of production.
 
Warning: long post ahoy!

What Fallout 4 should have included would be impossible to do without rewriting the entire game from scratch. The problem with Bethesda is that they choose to follow the ethos of promoting player agency over player character agency. This stems down to their worldbuilding process. They don't ask themselves enough questions about how their factions operate, why they exist and what their motives are beyond simple one-concept ideas (e.g "We want to free all synths!"). They don't look at their maps and ask where the trade routes are and why certain towns exist. These questions help your world feel more organic. It is likely the same questions that Tim Cain and co. asked themselves in 1996/1997, and also what the Obsidian team did in 2009/2010. Above anything else, Fallout's core concept seemed to be to simulate a post-apocalyptic retro-future and explore all of the themes that would come from that.

On the other hand, Bethesda's core game design process is to give the player as many ways as possible to feel "badass" or "cool" according to the latest trends in gaming media. Ironically, the Creation Engine is absolutely horrid at providing that power fantasy feel due to the wonky animations, mediocre combat and inability to have more than twenty NPCs in a cell. Besides, I absolutely hate the concept of power fantasy in RPGs. It works well in games like GTA, Saints' Row or Dynasty Warriors, where those games build their entire core game around being as ludicrously overpowered as possible. In an RPG however, it cheapens the game and reduces it to what is essentially mental masturbation.

IMO, RPGs are primarily about character development, both in a roleplaying sense and in a statistical sense. If an RPG is going to make you a badass from level 1, it ceases to be meaningful. My enjoyment of these games ties to the gradual overcoming of challenges as you develop your skills/level, or gain more reputation with a faction or individual to do ever more important things that will affect the game world. Handing a suit of power armour and a minigun to the PC in the first hour and then expecting him/her to kill one of the most dangerous enemies in Fallout (the Deathclaw) at level 3 completely kills that sense of progression. Instead of asking you to kill a deathclaw within an hour at a low level, they should have shown the creature ripping apart chemmed-up raiders and well-trained mercenaries, establishing that creature as a major threat to you. That way you'll shit yourself if you find one of them in the future. If you want to introduce power armour and heavy weaponry, have a BoS squad come in and save your ass rather than doling it out to the PC.

Then there's the other all too familiar Bethesda flaws that I won't describe in too much detail. The Oblivionesque enemy/equipment scaling (seriously that system was shit in 2006 and it's still shit now), handing out leadership roles to the PC despite having not really earned it, the extremely bland or idiotic NPCs and companions and the poor AI. Worst of all perhaps is the sheer lack of detail given to factions. Why are there so many raiders and who organises them? What is the Institute actually doing, and why do they consider Type-3 synths with free will to be abominations? Seriously, nothing about the Institute becomes clear...even if you become the damn director!

What Fallout 4 "should have included" was a properly designed world with good mechanics. I don't want to analyse every single thing Bethesda did poorly with F4. To do so, would take an even more ridiculously lengthy post than what I've already written. I'll just suffice to say that there's nothing extra that Bethesda could have included to make F4 a good Fallout game. What it needs is a total rewrite. Everything from the factions, the enemies, the level scaling, the gutted SPECIAL system, the dialogue, the voiced player character needs to be changed. I'm still amazed at how badly Bethesda managed to screw this game up. Even Skyrim was okay in moderation, and actually good if you modded it with Requiem. Perhaps the only thing more surprising to me, is that I was able to eventually able to force myself to finish the game.

TL DR version: Bethesda's vision of Fallout is incompatible at its very core with the original design goals of Cain and Co. Nothing needed to be included in F4, it needed to be scrapped entirely.
 
Warning: long post ahoy!
TL DR version: Bethesda's vision of Fallout is incompatible at its very core with the original design goals of Cain and Co. Nothing needed to be included in F4, it needed to be scrapped entirely.
Scrapped entirely?
I think some things could've been salvaged to be developed further. The majority needs an entire redesign though. How something this fundamentally broken in design, story and mechanics was made is beyond me. What's worse is how people can disregard these flaws (I'm fine if people like Fallout 4, but they need to understand as a product it's shoddy).
 
Scrapped entirely?
I think some things could've been salvaged to be developed further. The majority needs an entire redesign though. How something this fundamentally broken in design, story and mechanics was made is beyond me. What's worse is how people can disregard these flaws (I'm fine if people like Fallout 4, but they need to understand as a product it's shoddy).

The problem is that the overall game design is so flawed that they may as well have started again from scratch. Anything worth salvaging from Fallout 4 would probably would need to be redone anyway. Out of interest what is it that you would salvage? Anyway, yes I agree, F4 is mediocre as a game on its own merit, let alone when compared to the West Coast trilogy. If CT Phipps or whoever wants to enjoy the game, I'm not going to stop them. Honestly I wish I could too, but Bethesda have been getting away with this sort of laziness for nearly a decade now and its incredibly frustrating that it's taken this long for the mainstream to point it out. That said F4 is the worst game they've ever made, even Oblivion had a very scant few good points.
 
Out of interest what is it that you would salvage?
Let's see.

The Glowing Sea could be expanded upon, maybe a unique enemy there that rarely prowls the outskirts.
The whole synth dilemma- with good writers that could've been an amazing addition to Fallout. The people saying it doesn't fit- I understand where you're coming from- but anything wrote by Bethesda doesn't fucking fit.
There are quite a few neat locations (robot racetrack, combat zone) that are in desperate need of a complete overhaul, and I'm classing this as salvaging.
The vault with children could've been good. Natural selection and all that.
A successful vault was something I thought Bethesda weren't capable of- the disease thing was a neat idea, hundreds of test subjects which could actually serve a purpose to the Enclave instead of "brainwashed musicians hurr durr!! cloning hurr durr!"
The gunners should've been a faction instead of target dummies that glitch out and move every now and again.

Dammit I'm starting to sound like CT Dippers
 
Onyxium said:
What Fallout 4 should have included would be impossible to do without rewriting the entire game from scratch. The problem with Bethesda is that they choose to follow the ethos of promoting player agency over player character agency. This stems down to their worldbuilding process. They don't ask themselves enough questions about how their factions operate, why they exist and what their motives are beyond simple one-concept ideas (e.g "We want to free all synths!"). They don't look at their maps and ask where the trade routes are and why certain towns exist. These questions help your world feel more organic. It is likely the same questions that Tim Cain and co. asked themselves in 1996/1997, and also what the Obsidian team did in 2009/2010. Above anything else, Fallout's core concept seemed to be to simulate a post-apocalyptic retro-future and explore all of the themes that would come from that.

WHAT player agency?

Onyxium said:
On the other hand, Bethesda's core game design process is to give the player as many ways as possible to feel "badass" or "cool" according to the latest trends in gaming media. Ironically, the Creation Engine is absolutely horrid at providing that power fantasy feel due to the wonky animations, mediocre combat and inability to have more than twenty NPCs in a cell. Besides, I absolutely hate the concept of power fantasy in RPGs. It works well in games like GTA, Saints' Row or Dynasty Warriors, where those games build their entire core game around being as ludicrously overpowered as possible. In an RPG however, it cheapens the game and reduces it to what is essentially mental masturbation.

Frankly, speaking, I am going to state you really misunderstand the appeal of the power fantasy or are just applying it randomly here. Why? Because Fallout 4 fails utterly as a power fantasy. Bethesda was very good at making you feel mythic, godlike, and "cool" in Skyrim but none of that feeling is present in Fallout 4.

* As the Minuteman General and Institute Director, you feel like a figurehead for both those factions. Either that or a puppet for Shaun and Preston.

* You can't one-shot head shot the bullet sponges in the game.

* The radio stations don't extoll your virtues, they mostly just talk aorund you.

* Danse treats you like a grunt for most of your interaction.

* You can't really change anything in the Commonwealth or improve people's lives.

* The ending slides absence means you don't actually make the place better or worse.

The Sole Survivor despite being a General and Director or Sentinel feels ultimately like a errand guy. There's no sense of power fantasy or being badass or cool. You feel mediocore compared to the Chosen One, Vault Dweller, or Lone Wanderer.

Hell, the Courier feels like a bigger more mythic figure.
 
Last edited:
The Sole Survivor feels mediocre because the post-game is so utterly lacking in content aside from "radiant"-style fetch quests. That and Fallout 4's writing is very weak. As for the Courier, he does lean towards the mythic scale, particularly if you side with New Vegas. However their progression is significantly different.

I'll go back to the Deathclaw example. Let's start with New Vegas. In the town of Sloan, which can be accessed early on, the inhabitants immediately warn you that the north road is dangerous and filled with Deathclaws. They build up these creatures to be powerful entities and, most likely, if you run into one of them at level 1-4 with poor equipment and skills, they are going to turn you into mincemeat. This reinforces the Deathclaws=OH SHIT! notion.The same applies for the Cazadors and Giant Radscorpions to the north of Goodsprings. Sunny Smiles warns you of "nasty critters" if you head that way, and sure as damn it, they will likely easily kill a low leveled Courier unless he's unusually well-prepared.

On the other hand, the Sole Survivor, who is probably fresh out of cryostasis, is given a suit of Power Armour and a Minigun at the same level and slays the ultimate biological killing machine in the FO universe. Can you see the difference? The Courier does end up achieving greater things, but his journey is significantly more perilous and satisfying. The Sole Survivor on the other hand never really faces anything he can't kill, due to F4's scaling mechanics. Throw in the fact that power armour and fusion cells are stupidly common and you end up with an incredibly powerful PC. Deathclaws in New Vegas on the other hand, remain highly dangerous to the Courier due to their ability to ignore all armour (including Power Armour) and hit like trucks. Obsidian clearly understood how Deathclaws should be treated, Bethesda did not. The latter's design in this choice makes the Sole Survivor seem to be far more powerful then he/she should be.

I'll give you another example: the Synth Courser fight. Coursers are built up to be the Terminators of the Fallout universe: extremely strong, highly intelligent and very durable. They are actually one of the few ideas in Fallout 4 that I liked somewhat. Yet the Courser is an incredible disappointment, barely more of a threat than a few random raiders.

Remember that Bethesda's decision to reintroduce full level-scaling was a design choice. New Vegas had toned this down to an extent. Ask yourself why Bethesda likes this mechanic. It's partially because it makes their job easier (no having to design zones or encounter areas carefully), but it's also because it means that the player will never run into a challenge that they cannot mechanically defeat. This translates into making the PC very strong from the moment he/she is created.

Goddamnit. I promise not to make these long posts a regularity.
 
Honestly, I think the game would benefit FROM a genuine power-fantasy Onyxium and would like to argue the game would be far more awesome if you had the ability to shape the Commonwealth to your desires and you were THE ULTIMATE BADASS.

Ultimate Badass Edition of Fallout 4

* If you successfully clear a zone of the Commonwealth, it changes like the Witcher 3 so you are able to have established new villages with stores and ammunition and people praising you. Fill the Commonwealth with little villages.

* If you complete the Minutemen Questline, the place starts to get actual patrols of Minutemen you'll run into who are fighting for the rebuilding of the Commonwealth. Ditto Institute, Brotherhood, or Railroad patrols.

* Traviss extolls the Sole Survivor and how they've brought hope to the people of the land with every news broadcast.

* As the Director of the Institute, you can order the Synths to be freed and the Institute to focus on taking over the Surface World or stay underground or to help the common people. The Institute flag will be raised over Diamond City, Sanctuary Hills, and other locations. You will see Synths building electrical generators or water pumps.

* As the General of the Minutemen, you'll be able to pass judgement on Commonwealth criminals ala Dragon Age: Inquisition and make decrees settling the problems with various feuding factions. You'll also be able to dictate the new direction of the Minutemen. To take over the Commonwealth or serve as its protectors.

* Rather than just nuke the Institute, have the option of taking it over with your factions. Replace all of the citizens of the Institute with Synths as the Railroad, Brotherhood of Steel Paladins, or Minutemen and wastelanders.

* Have an epic series of quests where you earn your status as a Paladin of Steel before summoning a meeting to have Elder Maxson removed then replaced with Paladin Danse or somehow win the vote to be Elder yourself.

* Throw in a bunch of epic Boss Fights like Super Duper Mutants at specific points, the giant Roboscorpion, or yes, DESTROY LIBERTY PRIME! If there's going to be Legendaries, have them be Legendary like the giant Deathclaw Scarback.

* As the Overboss, free the Traders, order the Raiders to stop Raiding in order to make more money as mercs as well as "protection", or build Nuka World up as its King with the Traders as your subjects. Have the Brotherhood of Steel, Minutemen, or Institute Invade Nuka World in order to claim it for you.

* Let you forge a peace-treaty with various factions and create the New Commonwealth Republic.

* Have Ending Slides extoll the virtues or the sins of the Sole Survivor as they single handedly change the course of human history.
 
Back
Top