What had transpired...

[mortiz]

Have you ever lived in a country where everything you do is dictated by someone elses moral laws, courtesy or whatever the fuck ? No, then grow up and be gratefully for being able to shout the crap you do everyday without being arassed for it.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest, but I'd just like to point out that every single country's laws are governed by morals. Law is just the morals of politicians and those morals which have become so widely accepted as to warrant punishment for neglection. Just because a particular moral isn't held as law by the Government of a country doesn't mean it shouldn't be adhered to. We rely on our own morals to govern our behavior. It might not be illegal to see a disabled person on the street and go up to them and laugh in their face, but we don't do it because it's considered immoral. The games industry has its own set of morals, just because some politician hasn't said it's illegal to break them doesn't mean that it's OK to cast them aside.

The law isn't the end all and begin all of what is right and wrong, the law is mostly just political musings. It's a sad state of affairs when it's not respect, but mutual fear that keeps us in our place.

 

[Roshambo]

Did you just find out that EA and other publishers abuse of game licenses ? Congratulations brainfuck welcome to the real world. It is a bit late but you finaly realised the world isn't perfect.

And now you know why it is a courtesy in the authoring field, which is extended to games, because people will destroy games without any care to the original developers' hard work. That goes back to authoring, you know those things you never bother to pick up, books. And now you have some clue about why these publishers are loathed by both other publishers, developers, and the audience. You know, something about morals.

So your moronic attitude that because it happens, and okay because it is legal, and no morals can be applied to the situation because it is legal, is a rather charming one if it wasn't so stupid.

Have you ? If they signed a contract with a publisher stating that the rights to their work would belong to the publisher they knew what was comming. They wanted it for the oportunity to work for Interplay at the time. Only you don't realise it yet they have acepted it long ago. Oh the rape.

That wasn't the relationship they had with Interplay, and I even gave you an example. Since you still seem to think that Troika went to Interplay with the license...well, you're never getting that clue anytime soon.

Everything Bethsoft has done is legal and Bethsoft didn't knew anything about Troika as it was explained to you by the Troika devs. Go get some clues ok.

No, Bethesda knew that the fans wanted Troika to develop the game, but they didn't care. Or they claimed that they were fans and followed the game, and lied about it. Hell, just about everyone knew that the Fallout fans in general held the original developers to be the greatest hope.

So despite it being "legal", that still doesn't make it moral or courteous.

Have you ever lived in a country where everything you do is dictated by someone elses moral laws, courtesy or whatever the fuck ? No, then grow up and be gratefully for being able to shout the crap you do everyday without being arassed for it.

Yes, and no matter where you live, you still have to live in a country based upon other people's moral laws and courtesies. It's part of society, kid, even in a democracy, that you have to live along someone else's standards. Even in the USA.

Fargo didn't have any real input on Fallout, other than he worked on Wasteland and wanted to have another title in the series. That was pretty much IT.

He didn't ? How would you know that. Again just pretending you know stuff you don't. Fallout is almost a ripoff of the Wasteland and you are saying that Fargo's didn't had any influence on it.

No, Fallout was substantially darker than Wasteland, and aside from a post-apocalyptic theme, Wasteland really didn't have much influence over Fallout. The setting and quite a bit else, if you bother to play both games, are quite different in tone and design.

As for knowing, I think I would trust what I have been told by the developers and other people who worked on the game, over the span of years while working on this site, rather than some random idiot netnewbie.

(Snip a load of irrelevant idiocy regarding Bethesda and Daggerfall.)

FOT has the best tactical combat system that i have seen in any game. It's a joy to play tactics. Tactics team turn-base mode is an evolution of Fallout turn-base mode.

Then you haven't played any real tactical games, kid, for you to make such an unbelievably retarded comment. Both sides of FOT's combat are flawed due to the inclusion of both kinds of combat systems, to the point where the maps generally suck ass and the rest of the character system goes to hell as part of the compromise.

What i allways wanted for F3 is an rpg like Fallout and the team turn-base system of FOT, but we know it will never happen. Of course it isn't an rpg it's a tactical combat game. This is beaten to dead already. No point on pretending that FOT is an rpg just to bash it. Just let it be an inspiration for what F3 could have been if they had the rpg part in it.

It should be inspiration for the beatings of you and munchkin morons like you for being obvlivious idiots.

(Snip more ignorance about courtesy, because the kid still hasn't done anything with his life.)

Last your illusion that you and the guys who have played Fallout are the fans is so naive it is touching. In the target market for Fallout 3 you are 1% or less. You and me don't count for sales figures, grow up. Most of the people that will buy the game have only heard of Fallout in the forums or in games magazines. So Bethesda can sell any damn thing they want and call it Fallout as long as it is recognized as an rpg, has gorgious pictures and it is not a complete crap in terms of gameplay. Sad but true.

News Flash, moron. We are the oldest and largest Fallout site around. Guess where most Fallout fans generally get their news at some point? Moron.

What you do count and can have any influence is with instructing the devs and the newbe fans about what Fallout is really about. That implies keeping Fallout sites updated with Fallout info and constantly educating newbes and the devs themselves in the forums.

Which we do. Too bad you couldn't be educated.

And don't bother banning me i won't touch this subject no more.

You already had a chance to develop a clue. Considering you couldn't even after being warned and want to pull this kind of "you don't have to ban me, this is the last I'll say about this" trolling, then you can go back and mingle with the rest of the GameSpy and IGN trash. I.E. Not on these forums.

I know it will take you a couple of months to grasp what i said here but at least i hope you get it when the Fallout 3 forums are open. Yeah and you are a lousy stinking troll. Screw you and screw the spellcheck button.

Again, goodbye, troll.

 

[draeke]

elander_,

I think that this is wholly appicable to this discussion, since he just doesn't seem to 'get it'.

The nature of law is to maintain justice. This is so much the case that, in the minds of the people, law and justice are one and the same thing. There is in all of us a strong disposition to believe that anything lawful is also legitimate. This belief is so widespread that many persons have erroneously held that things are "just" because law makes them so. Thus, in order to make plunder appear just and sacred to many consciences, it is only necessary for the law to decree and sanction it.

-Frederic Bastiat

I hope that the arguments make a little bit more sense now.

 

[Ashmo]

If all of law was perfectly just at any given moment, we wouldn't need to update it all of the time.

As difficult as the concept seems to some people, ethics are relative and ethics change. So even if a set of laws would perfectly represent the ethics of a certain group of people at a certain point of time, that still wouldn't mean it's considered "just" by the same people at a later time.

The only persistent state is death.

 

[4too]

""Mostly Harmless""

""Mostly Harmless""


A.:

... The only persistent state is death.

Time rldes on a one dimensional track, flipping off the calendar pages of Intelligently Designed (**) ape descendants. Pages fall and wither, as the seasonal cycle slides on.

[(**) ''Intelligent Design''. inserted here, anticipating regional compatibility with the state of mind called "'Kansas".]


Time slides on, the game market fattens on 'what is hip', and the sinking corporate ships abandon their horizons and swelter in financial life boats. No, financial and legal life boats. No, financial, legal, and moral life boats ....


In the U,S,. values clarification has always been controversial. There have been and will always be, social, political campaigns that claim ""we have VALUES"" , with a clear unstated stamp, [stamp of a STEEL toed boot]. that the opposition has no values. All of life's diversities become devilish complications in each social episode of the grand Darwinian Drama. One must have, the one true UNIT DIGITAL [icon] to poke out the eyes of the competition.

... The only persistent state is death.

Oww, Blindly stumbling ...

One can only throw oneself at the feet of "Intelligent Design' (perhaps there is an arbitrating - deity - even in Kansas ...) and petition for a 'warm and fuzzy' middle ground.

... The only persistent state is death.

To stay 'warm and fuzzy' on this side of the "'veil"", this side of ''the Pale Rider"", the catch all ... this catch all clause may intervene ...

"There Are - probably - No Absolutes ... "" may apply in one's localization.

Perhaps, in some -- value added -- jurisdiction, the case, or rather 'the state' may add --- taxes ---- to the realm of 'persistent states'.

If this 'altered state' (for we may BE in Kansas after all ... ), if this 'altered state' be of Intelligent Design, then one can hardly close the door on Python-esque pop cultural icons as .... the Spanish Inquisition. Each time we state a finite number , a new line item ''persistently'' slips in to the litany.


We NOW have THREE Persistent States!

""Death, taxes, and The Spanish inquisition, ... "'No one expects the Spanish (or Kansas) inquisition!""

"' Death, taxes, Spanish AND Kansas ,,, Inquisition ,,, , oops that makes FOUR!


Rinse, lather, and repeat ...

Und so weiter ...







4too

 

[draeke]

I apologize for this but who the fuck are you quoting?

 

[Tannhauser]

The only persistent state is death.

As you can see, 4too is quoting Ashmo. The post which is quoted from is the post immediately before 4too's own. The quoted section is the last sentence of Ashmo’s post, if you have further trouble locating it.

 

[Ashmo]

The problem usually is understanding 4too's posts rather than trying to figure out whom he's quoting.

What I was trying to say is that it's impossible to make laws that are perfectly ethical because ethics are relative -- life is unjust and perfect "justice" would be unlivable, so laws cannot be just, they can only represent the ethics of a certain group of people at a certain point in time.

Unless you believe that some set of ethics would be god-given or universal in the same way the golden cut is perceived as universally perfect in aesthetics, that is.

My final sentence was a bit off topic, but by "death" I did not mean the end of an individual's existence or life, but the end of all life -- because life is change, a chain of events caused by individual reactions and triggering further reactions, death is the end, the final result of that complex chain of actions and reactions, thus death is a static state.

All that only applies to the physical realm, of course. Quantum physics excluded (the possibility of some part of physics being irrational and unpredictable breaks the whole concept of physics anyway).