What had transpired...

[welsh]

Only in this case not only did the ones credited with the creative endeavour not get compensated, they were refused the opportunity to buy their own creative idea...
And the "compensation" ended up in the hands of those responsible for the failure of the company they worked for and gave their talents to...

THere you have the villian.

From what it sounds like Troika was never close to having the money for the game. They didn't bid at all.

Perhaps Interplay should have made a better deal with them over the game rights, but Bethesda made the offer. Had Interplay cared more for the game or the fans, perhaps it might have restructured the deal in a way that Troika could have done it.
Might have, could have, should of?

We never, ever bid on Fallout. One major publisher mentioned Interplay was shopping it around and would be interested in us developing it for them, but theydropped it as too expensive when they found out the asking price (not ours, Interplay's). We never had our own money, and were just beginning to toy with the idea of independent funding near the end of our life as a business - which was after Beth had already gotten Fallout.

So Bethesda got it before Troika even had a chance to bid.

I did approach Bethesda about us working with them on Fallout, but they were uninterested. Instead of flaiming them for this however, think about it from their point of view: who among us would want to pay a huge amount of money for a license and then turn it over to someone else? I'm assuming they paid the $$ because they wanted to make a Fallout game, end of story.

That's were the problem is.

A smart strategy would suggest that Bethesda should learn from the mistakes of the past, and either not dumb down the game, convert it into some moronic disaster, and please God no first person shooters.

There are a number of key ingrediants that make Fallout work. Acknowledge that, and perhaps even improve on the original, and you might have a great game.

But failure to learn from the mistakes of the past will not be rewarded by either the market or fallout fans. It is the fallout fans that will make Fallout a success, not trends in the industry.

If Bethesda works with the community, embraces the communities expectations and understanding of the game, than Bethesda could have a game in the fans would plug the game to their friends- and more would buy it. What would a fallout fan give to a friend for Christmas- a copy of fallout- if its good. But if it sucks ass, than you'll be hearing about it all over the internet.

The fan-base is a double edged sword. It can either work for them or against them.

But turning away Troika, not consulting with them or other earlier developers, suggests either -
(1) Yet another bastardized interpretation of Fallout that doesn't live up to fan expectations, or
(2) That Fallout license will disappear into Bethesda cellar (carted beyond that other box that keeps the Lost Arc of the Covenant).

I am not sure which option is better.

 

[frissy]

Well one thing is clear. NOBODY will EVER make Fallout 1&2 anymore. Even if Troika would be making F03, it doesn?t mean that it would satisfy us. It would just ease our minds that people who created the series would still be at it. One could also think that there is no Fallout without Interplay (but we know better).

Troika didn?t have the funds to buy the rights at the time when Bethesda had the finance. If you can't sell the product you change the offer. Well guess what people. Bethesda had what was needed to buy the rights. Very simple in my point of view.

As for them working together...well think about it. You get the rights to a game that you probably had fantasies about. Who the hell is going to share that? (specially if you involve profit).

They wanted it. They got it. They make it (insert year here xxxx).

We don?t know what?s coming. If it?s good or bad. Trust me, we can flame it when they give us something. Even if it?s good, it?s still good to keep them on their toes
________
Maurice trintignant

 

[VDweller]

You mentioned before Troika almost had it. Others repeated this "fact" at the beginning of the thread. Including Dhruin, who mentions Troika or a publisher tied to it had a deal lined up with Interplay before Beth popped up. Vault Dweller also says "yes, Troika had an arrangement with Interplay".

So either Leon is lying through his teeth or you guys were wrong.

Why? All Leon said was that Troika didn't bid directly and that the publisher decided not to pay for the license. Nobody stated anything that these statements disprove.

As for my comment, I've had a conversation with one of Troika's employees who told me that there is a good chance they will get the license, that there was an arrangement (not a contract) with Interplay, that the publisher was interested in the PA game if it comes with the license, and that some fund raising was taking place. The amount was mentioned ("about 1 mil") about a month before Bethesda's announcement.

Keep in mind that while 1 mil may sound like a huge amount, it isn't in the business world, and it doesn't take long to raise it, especially when the publisher was ready to pay for the development and previous Troika games sold more then enough to guarantee the safety of that investment.

Was my contact mistaken? Possibly. However, what he told me makes sense if you think about it. According to Leon's post, the publisher didn't want to pay. Now, is it likely that nobody from Troika contacted Herve and tried to work out a deal? No. Did Leon claim otherwise? No. Is it likely that Troika tried to get the money? Yes. Is it likely that if Beth didn't buy the license, Troika would have gotten it? Yes. So, what are we talking about then?

 

[mortiz]

The fact that Activision (who I assume is this unnamed publisher) wasn't willing to pay one million for such a good license says more about them than any other party. LB has a point, Fallout was never massively successful but it's almost developed a cult following since its first release, a large enough following to guarantee a successful Fallout game given it stayed true to the originals, a stipulation no one was better to make sure of than Troika.

It's not even as though a future Fallout game's development costs would be high in comparison to other AAA games out there, Fallout was never about the graphics, one of the most expensive things in game development today. Hell, they could have kept it in 2D and the Fallout fan base would have been more than pleased.

Only two parties know what Beth did to get the licence it seems, Beth and IP, and I doubt either are going to come out and tell us. Even if the publisher was willing to go higher on the price there isn't a guarantee that Beth wouldn't have tried to outbid them. Also surely when the unnamed publisher found out that Beth, a major independent development house was willing to cough up for the licence they would have been given the opportunity to counter-bid? Get the licence into the hands of those who created it? If Beth had faith they could make a successful game surely some little light bulb must have switched on inside of the publishers head?

 

[Roshambo]

The fact that Activision (who I assume is this unnamed publisher) wasn't willing to pay one million for such a good license says more about them than any other party. LB has a point, Fallout was never massively successful but it's almost developed a cult following since its first release, a large enough following to guarantee a successful Fallout game given it stayed true to the originals, a stipulation no one was better to make sure of than Troika.

That is the thing that still gets me. For all the crap Feargus and most BioWare lackeys like to spew, they still do not understand how great series came about, gained a following and flourished, and then ultimately died, pun intended.

-How many units did Akalabeth, Ultima, or Ultima II sell, initially?

Jack shit.

-How many sales did Might and Magic have until the third incarnation?

Very few.

-How many people, relatively, knew about Wizardry and Wizardry 2?

Huh? Wizardwhat?

The marketing cattle seem to think that unless you instantly create a game following by a shitload of hype and magazine whoring, including multiple page spreads, then it isn't worth it. Sorry, but CRPGs are by far the most enduring titles out there. They take a bit of effort to get an audience, but once it has an audience, that audience will spread around word of mouth to tell others. They come back because you take something familiar, like Ultima III, and add something brilliant to it, like Ultima IV. See? Nothing was cheaply whored out for the design differences between the two, and is how sequels should be done.

So while a game company might like to crow about hyping a title so they can get limited return, from being indistinguishable from every other over-hyped and similar trend clone out there, others know that to sell millions on the name alone you need to treat the license well and faithfully for the audience to come back to. That is how Wizardry sold millions with each incarnation, and Ultima had sick numbers by Ultima 7. It's a good thing they put in platform jumping and action puzzles, everything trendy by those days' standards judging by how the current gaming audience was generally playing Nintendo if anything then, into Ultima 4 to make it like everything else so Ultima never really took off.

 

[draeke]

Rather than quote Bloodlust, I'll just elaborate. I was actually asking about a new release date for FO3, not elder scrolls iv. I saw nothing pertaining to fallout on bethesda's website either. I had intended to ask what <if any> new release had been established for FO3, since the November release date had been blown.

 

[TheWesDude]

every release date i have seen for FO3 says very late 2006 or else sometime in 2007. and i have always been hoping that it was late 2007 which would insure they at least had spent time on it.

at least from beth.

 

[Bloodlust]

Rather than quote Bloodlust, I'll just elaborate. I was actually asking about a new release date for FO3, not elder scrolls iv. I saw nothing pertaining to fallout on bethesda's website either. I had intended to ask what <if any> new release had been established for FO3, since the November release date had been blown.

The funny thing is that fallout isn't officially in development yet.How can you possibly expect a release date since the game is in such an early stage.All those release dates out in spanish e-shops and brazillian e-gamehouses are just attention whores to trick you into preordering.
The game currently (since bethesda hasn't updated us on it's progress) is in pre-production phase and will enter the full-house production phase after the Garbage (ES 4) is released.Judging from the time bethesda takes with it's games,i wouldn't expect fo3 to be released before mid-late 2007.

 

[draeke]

Lol, actually I got that info from nma. I've been lurking for a while. That info was from August '04. You can google it "First Fallout 3 release date" or just fallout 3 and it'll come up. In any case, it's certainly taken long enough. friggin interplay/bis/bioware. without having any hard numbers, a crpg series that has spawned four titles is definitely going to make money. it'd be like making another star wars movie. it might suck but everyone's going to go see it anyway.

 

[Brother None]

You mean this thread

You'll notice that:

a) we never claimed it as an official release date
b) Bethesda devs posted in that thread making it pretty clear that that release date is bs

Yeeesh, read before drawing conclusions

 

[elander_]

Let's not forget that Troika was hired to do a game and sell their so much loved work rights to Interplay. They knew the rules from the begining. It's business and it is generaly acepted by both developers and publishers. Is this immoral ? Moral ideals are made by people like you and me. The only thing publishers do is to pretend they do any quality testing to their games and then sell it for the big share of the profits. But also remenber that when a game doesn't sell they pay all the expenses from their pockets. Troika had several chances to grow up as a game developer: arcanum, toee and vampire bloodlines. They failed because of their own lack of ability as managers.

 

[Roshambo]

Let's not forget that Troika was hired to do a game and sell their so much loved work rights to Interplay. They knew the rules from the begining. It's business and it is generaly acepted by both developers and publishers.

No, it isn't, as many have been remarking. Thank you for ignoring a whole two threads to post that ignorant piece of flamebait.

Just try to tell that load of shit to the Origin developers, or many MicroProse developers, or pretty much anyone who has worked in the past with Interplay or EA - it isn't business as usual, it is business mentality interfering with game design for selfish reasons that results in absolute crap. Yes, that is business, but as in any art media, that is simply bad form.

Has the gaming industry become so formulaic and spineless due to trends, that we swallow any garbage as long as it has The Brand Label™?

Apparently, for some of us, it has. For some of us, it hasn't, but of course, we DO value our integrity enough to point out the carelessness of others.

That is pretty much the gist of the last page or so, and the other thread linked, so ignorance can no longer be an excuse for you.

 

[elander_]

That is pretty much the gist of the last page or so, and the other thread linked, so ignorance can no longer be an excuse for you.

Im not ignoring anything im disagreeing. Are you going to call me names now to prove your superior moral principles ? Moral is just another form of control.

Just try to tell that load of shit to the Origin developers, or many MicroProse developers, or pretty much anyone who has worked in the past with Interplay or EA - it isn't business as usual, it is business mentality interfering with game design for selfish reasons that results in absolute crap. Yes, that is business, but as in any art media, that is simply bad form.

So whats your point ? You want to make a game you go to a publisher that gives you a budget and a share of the profit. In exchange you give him the rights to your beloved baby. This may look like a devils contract but it's one both parts are willing to acept.

Besides i brought Vampire Bloodlines. The original costed me a small fortune of 50e and it was filled with so many bugs and balance issues the game would crash in the middle without any possibility of fixing it. You think people who buy original games deserve this ?

Bloodlines is top quality rpg when properly patched with fan-made fixes. Troika could have had the jackpot and solve their money problems with this game but they screwed it. Sure there were other problems like that shit with HL2 and the lack of quality testing from their publisher but when you do a game like this and you need the money you do whatever you can to make the product as polished as you can before giving it to the publisher. You don't take chances and you don't get yourself in bindings and toy engines when you have a great game to do right and little resources to do it.

 

[Sander]

Im not ignoring anything im disagreeing. Are you going to call me names now to prove your superior moral principles ? Moral is just another form of control.

That bit of text is lacking any and all logic.

So whats your point ? You want to make a game you go to a publisher that gives you a budget and a share of the profit. In exchange you give him the rights to your beloved baby. This may look like a devils contract but it's one both parts are willing to acept.

The only reason developers are willing to accept that is that they *have* to, otherwise they cannot publish the game because almost no publisher is going to agree to anything else.
Furthermore, in Fallout's case, the situation is different because the IP was already with Interplay because it was developed under Interplay's name. The fact that Bethesda lacked the courtesy to discuss anything with the original creators of the setting, shows they have little respect for the setting, and thus the IP. Making it a mainly money-grubbing move to grab the IP, because without respect for the setting, what other reason could they have to want it?

Besides i brought Vampire Bloodlines. The original costed me a small fortune of 50e and it was filled with so many bugs and balance issues the game would crash in the middle without any possibility of fixing it. You think people who buy original games deserve this ?

Bloodlines is top quality rpg when properly patched with fan-made fixes. Troika could have had the jackpot and solve their money problems with this game but they screwed it. Sure there were other problems like that shit with HL2 and the lack of quality testing from their publisher but when you do a game like this and you need the money you do whatever you can to make the product as polished as you can before giving it to the publisher. You don't take chances and you don't get yourself in bindings and toy engines when you have a great game to do right and little resources to do it.

Straw man. The fact that Bloodlines was buggy has jack shit to do with Bethesda's lack of respect and courtesy.
Furthermore, a lot of those bugs were fixed by Troika, in fact, they had been fixed before the game was released. However, their publisher withheld the patch until some two months later, if I recall correctly. What's more, a lot of the bugs were largely due to time-constraints, as always.

 

[Roshambo]

Im not ignoring anything im disagreeing.

By remarking that what they did was legal. Sorry, but you're a bit late for that, as others tried to pull the same straw man you did in both threads. Then you try to do the same. What makes you think your half-baked garbage will be considered even more?

So instead of just ignoring the threads, I'll have to call you a liar as well. Or just incredibly stupid to the point of not being able to learn from the public mistakes of others.

Are you going to call me names now to prove your superior moral principles ?

Funny, are you going to continue to whine when you have no relevance to this thread? You posted shit that others brain-farted long before you. That makes you a me-too moron.

So whats your point ? You want to make a game you go to a publisher that gives you a budget and a share of the profit. In exchange you give him the rights to your beloved baby. This may look like a devils contract but it's one both parts are willing to acept.

FYI, Troika didn't approach or have any "dealings" with Interplay previously, they were employees of Interplay that originally worked on the title. They created a substantial portion of the game, and as creators, are held to be the authors. Authorship has a specific meaning in this worl, including sets of courtesies. I am sorry you are too young to otherwise understand courtesy, but if you're going to try and apologize for Bethesda, you're doing a really pathetic job of it.

Whether that is legal or not, that is irrelevant to the moral aspect of it - which you did not disagree with, you just posted a rather moronic straw man to be topped off by the irrelevancies regarding Bloodlines. Like others, I really don't see how Troika's problems with development schedules and other publisher annoyances has to do with Bethesda's discourtesy or how that has anything to do with your supposed "disagreement". Maybe you'll stop sniveling about expecting to be flamed enough to come up with something a bit more rational, but frankly, you smell of clueless troll, so I'm not holding my breath.

 

[elander_]

Whether that is legal or not, that is irrelevant to the moral aspect of it - which you did not disagree with, you just posted a rather moronic straw man to be topped off by the irrelevancies regarding Bloodlines.

Again the moral crap ? When are you going to screw that moral crap up your ass ? Let me tell you something boy i don't agree or disagree with you on the mater of authorship. The law isn't perfect but i prefer the law anytime to any morality rules you or any other rebels without a clue can come up with to masturbate your clueless egos. The beauty of the law and free trading is that there is no moral crap dictating what everyone should do.

If you don't like it don't buy it or in the case of Fallout developers don't sign the contract IP wanted them to sign. Why don't you acept it as they have acepted it themselves. You can't make things right for other people if they aren't interested in defending their own rights.

But still i don't believe this was completely the case with Fallout. The game would never have been made without the supervision of Brian Fargo who is credited for designing the Wasteland game concept. It would be much wiser for them to have created something similar to Dungeons&Dragons or White Wolf pnp and copyrigt it but they didn't. I don't think they were dumb or greedy just innocent minded. They could never guess that a game like Fallout would assume the proportions it has today. So screw them and screw you too commie.

The thing that bothers me most is not to have had the opurtunity to play the great rpg that could have been Bloodlines. Screw Boyarsky too for making me waste 50euros.

On the subject of Bethesda not to have the courtesy of informing the original authors, they don't have to unless they want to. The original developers already posted it was not important. So yeah i think you own an apology to them brain-fart.

 

[Tannhauser]

If you don't like it don't buy it or in the case of Fallout developers don't sign the contract IP wanted them to sign. Why don't you acept it as they have acepted it themselves. You can't make things right for other people if they aren't interested in defending their own rights.

Wait, are we suppose to retain our own opinions and exercise our choice of boycotting a product, like your first sentence indicates; or are we suppose to "just accept it" like your second sentence states?

Unless Boyarsky forced you to buy the game at gunpoint, the only person you have to blame for wasting your fifty Euros is yourself. So, please, do screw yourself.

"Acept" and "Opurtunity" give me a headache, so I created something just for you:
thereforareason

 

[elander_]

Wait, are we suppose to retain our own opinions and exercise our choice of boycotting a product, like your first sentence indicates; or are we suppose to "just accept it" like your second sentence states?

Im not a Bethesda fanboy i'm only saying that you can't proclaim the Fallout devs broken feelings like that when they don't care in the first place. I think we have enough information already to know that the Fallout devs themselves have accepted this situation from the beginning. They don't care. They knew something like this could happen when they signed the contract with Interplay and they accepted the risk. Is that so hard to understand they toke a calculated risk ?

Your choice of boycotting a product ? Are you talking about Oblivion ? Yaaay let's boycot Oblivion. What's the plan master.

Unless Boyarsky forced you to buy the game at gunpoint, the only person you have to blame for wasting your fifty Euros is yourself. So, please, do screw yourself.

That would be fair except for one minor detail you are paying for a working game, not half of a working game. It's your consumer rights. So no, not this time. I could have returned the game and get my money back but it would not be the same thing. But no problem. When i say screw Boyasrky what i really want to say is screw you for being such a lousy manager and loose your chance to do more great rpgs i would want to buy.

 

[Roshambo]

Again the moral crap ? When are you going to screw that moral crap up your ass ?

Give me a moment, BOY.

Let me tell you something boy i don't agree or disagree with you on the mater of authorship. The law isn't perfect but i prefer the law anytime to any morality rules you or any other rebels without a clue can come up with to masturbate your clueless egos. The beauty of the law and free trading is that there is no moral crap dictating what everyone should do.

And the stupidity of it resulting in garbage like...oh, just about every other game that was exchanged hands, like Hasbro, EA, etc. who have all fucked up the licensed they buy. I'm sorry if real developers and people caring about the quality of the industry do care about this, kid. Bethesda owes us an explanation unless they want us to continue to consider them to be pulling a Hasbro.

Thanks for also excusing your ingorance on an element that DOES NOT apply to video games. Really, when has a license fared better when it is taken and raped from those who created it? That's right, none. So your logic doesn't make any sense, and if you're not disagreeing about authorship, then what are you disagreeing about? The morality of it? Well, let me know when you create something of note in this world, if you ever become of worth to anyone or anything in this world, and then have someone rape your hard work. Considering that you sound like a child without any idea how the real worl works, then yes, you have no idea how courtesy IS an aspect in dealing with others in the industry. Even the Japanese have business ethics, kid.

Even those who followed UXO have a clue more than you do. No Garriot, nothing what made the game Ultima, no fans cared. So why should the company that whores out the title to get your money be treated any differently than how EA should be treated for doing what they do?

Seriously, Bloodlines was patched and is at least playable. Where is the "unsuck" patch for Ultima 8 and 9? For X-COM Enforcer? For FOT and FOS? For any game that was only taken in name only and treated poorly? That is right, THERE IS NONE. Those are truly wastes in the game industry, wastes that you just excused in light to contradict yourself by complaining about Bloodlines.

But still i don't believe this was completely the case with Fallout. The game would never have been made without the supervision of Brian Fargo who is credited for designing the Wasteland game concept.

Fargo didn't have any real input on Fallout, other than he worked on Wasteland and wanted to have another title in the series. That was pretty much IT. Stop looking at names and feebly trying to put them together; for instance your idiocy regarding Troika, as they were not around in a development house in dealing with Interplay yet at the time of Fallout's development, yet you try to make it sound like they went to Interplay and sold Fallout off for publishing.

And if you're going to try and credit a spiritual successor with the same situation as Bethesda gaining the license, then you're even more retarded than previously estimated.

It would be much wiser for them to have created something similar to Dungeons&Dragons or White Wolf pnp and copyrigt it but they didn't. I don't think they were dumb or greedy just innocent minded. They could never guess that a game like Fallout would assume the proportions it has today. So screw them and screw you too commie.

Funny how you say this, when we have pointed out the relationship the people who formed Troika had with Interplay, and it is pretty common knoweldge yet you seem to think that no, Xatrix Entertainment didn't have its roots with Origin and that Space Rogue should be sold off to someone else entirely.

Generally, most intelligent people can look at a manual's credits and figure whom worked at which development house, and in what position.

Too bad you're not one of them.

The thing that bothers me most is not to have had the opurtunity to play the great rpg that could have been Bloodlines. Screw Boyarsky too for making me waste 50euros.

Again, irrelevant to the topic, shithead.

Im not a Bethesda fanboy i'm only saying that you can't proclaim the Fallout devs broken feelings like that when they don't care in the first place. I think we have enough information already to know that the Fallout devs themselves have accepted this situation from the beginning. They don't care. They knew something like this could happen when they signed the contract with Interplay and they accepted the risk. Is that so hard to understand they toke a calculated risk ?

No, it is about courtesy of Bethesda to retain faithfulness to the IP that we are discussing. Not whether Troika has hurt feelings or not. You can stop with the straw man arguments already. Troika was looking to get the license - that means that they care, obviously. The fact that Bethesda didn't have the courtesy to contact the original developers, which the fans at large also hold as the best hope for Fallout, speaks of rudeness akin to taking someone else's authored series and putting your own vision into it without taking the author's vision into mind - which is disrespectful to the audience as well. So if it's disrespectful to the audience, then as the audience we are going to say so.

If it comes down to shit design or bugs, we'll take bugs. We know how to deal with those, given BIS' work on Fallout 2. We just don't care for shitty design, which happened with FOT and FOS, in case you didn't care to look those up to see how the fans responded to them.

On the subject of Bethesda not to have the courtesy of informing the original authors, they don't have to unless they want to. The original developers already posted it was not important. So yeah i think you own an apology to them brain-fart.

Really, is this the same "information source" that also told you about Troika's history? They said they understand it from Bethesda's point of view, not that it wasn't important. It still is important to those who care about the game, which doesn't include you, since you use the validation that anyone or anything with the name "Fallout" is perfect for your insipid understanding. Hell, you probably can't even fully discern the setting correctly and might want NVGs put into Fallout 3 like every other petulant and clueless newbie.

So why are you on this forum if you don't care about Fallout? That's right. Get ready to say goodbye, troll.

 

[elander_]

And the stupidity of it resulting in garbage like...oh, just about every other game that was exchanged hands, like Hasbro, EA, etc. who have all fucked up the licensed they buy. I'm sorry if real developers and people caring about the quality of the industry do care about this, kid. Bethesda owes us an explanation unless they want us to continue to consider them to be pulling a Hasbro.

Thanks for also excusing your ingorance on an element that DOES NOT apply to video games. Really, when has a license fared better when it is taken and raped from those who created it? That's right, none. So your logic doesn't make any sense, and if you're not disagreeing about authorship, then what are you disagreeing about? The morality of it?

Did you just find out that EA and other publishers abuse of game licenses ? Congratulations brainfuck welcome to the real world. It is a bit late but you finaly realised the world isn't perfect.

Well, let me know when you create something of note in this world, if you ever become of worth to anyone or anything in this world, and then have someone rape your hard work.

Have you ? If they signed a contract with a publisher stating that the rights to their work would belong to the publisher they knew what was comming. They wanted it for the oportunity to work for Interplay at the time. Only you don't realise it yet they have acepted it long ago. Oh the rape.

Everything Bethsoft has done is legal and Bethsoft didn't knew anything about Troika as it was explained to you by the Troika devs. Go get some clues ok. Still what would be the problem. Economy is ruthless and thats why it is so useful. Without it you would still be playing chess waiting for perestroika you commie ass.

Have you ever lived in a country where everything you do is dictated by someone elses moral laws, courtesy or whatever the fuck ? No, then grow up and be gratefully for being able to shout the crap you do everyday without being arassed for it.

Fargo didn't have any real input on Fallout, other than he worked on Wasteland and wanted to have another title in the series. That was pretty much IT.

He didn't ? How would you know that. Again just pretending you know stuff you don't. Fallout is almost a ripoff of the Wasteland and you are saying that Fargo's didn't had any influence on it.

And if you're going to try and credit a spiritual successor with the same situation as Bethesda gaining the license, then you're even more retarded than previously estimated.

Credit Bethsoft why ? I don't even like Morrowind. If they do a game with the Fallout license that is minimaly interesting for Fallout fans it would be a miracle as they couldn't even start to grasp Daggerfall design, their own series, only until Oblivion and even so. Thats when they started to open their eyes, thanks to the enlightenment sessions the fans were doing to them every day.

If it makes you feel better (it doesn't to me) when making Morrowind the devs tried to inspire themselves on Ultima VII and Fallout (dev comments). If you don't believe what im saying read fallout mapper documentation then compare it to tescs documentation.

Second interesting fact not everyone knows but after Daggerfall commercial failure Bethsoft original team of designers was replaced by another team where none of the Daggerfall and Arena original designers was present. So boy don't think you are the only one who knows shit about it.

care for shitty design, which happened with FOT and FOS, in case you didn't care to look those up to see how the fans responded to them.

FOT has the best tactical combat system that i have seen in any game. It's a joy to play tactics. Tactics team turn-base mode is an evolution of Fallout turn-base mode. What i allways wanted for F3 is an rpg like Fallout and the team turn-base system of FOT, but we know it will never happen. Of course it isn't an rpg it's a tactical combat game. This is beaten to dead already. No point on pretending that FOT is an rpg just to bash it. Just let it be an inspiration for what F3 could have been if they had the rpg part in it.

No, it is about courtesy of Bethesda to retain faithfulness to the IP that we are discussing. Not whether Troika has hurt feelings or not. You can stop with the straw man arguments already. Troika was looking to get the license - that means that they care, obviously. The fact that Bethesda didn't have the courtesy to contact the original developers, which the fans at large also hold as the best hope for Fallout, speaks of rudeness akin to taking someone else's authored series and putting your own vision into it without taking the author's vision into mind - which is disrespectful to the audience as well. So if it's disrespectful to the audience, then as the audience we are going to say so.

Oh boy i see we have a serious case of critical cluelessness in here.

Firts of all forget about the courtesy bull. The last person on earth someone would take courtesy lessons is you. And you already know what i think of business courtesy. It's like courtesy when two whores share the same corner in the streat and don't want to scare away their clients.

You have oh so pretty feelings but you aren't changing the way things are by showing an hugly face and trolling in bethsoft forums to impose your moral standards.

The point here for smart people barinfuck that it would be WISER for beth to contact and hire the original designers. This is what would make Beth have any authority in making Fallout 3. And we are talking of the first game of this series they are going to try so if they don't, at least, contact some of the original designers im not even bother touching Fallout 3. Most likely i will get a pirate copy to see how crappy it is and then forget about it.

Last your illusion that you and the guys who have played Fallout are the fans is so naive it is touching. In the target market for Fallout 3 you are 1% or less. You and me don't count for sales figures, grow up. Most of the people that will buy the game have only heard of Fallout in the forums or in games magazines. So Bethesda can sell any damn thing they want and call it Fallout as long as it is recognized as an rpg, has gorgious pictures and it is not a complete crap in terms of gameplay. Sad but true.

What you do count and can have any influence is with instructing the devs and the newbe fans about what Fallout is really about. That implies keeping Fallout sites updated with Fallout info and constantly educating newbes and the devs themselves in the forums.

And don't bother banning me i won't touch this subject no more. I know it will take you a couple of months to grasp what i said here but at least i hope you get it when the Fallout 3 forums are open. Yeah and you are a lousy stinking troll. Screw you and screw the spellcheck button.