What if Super Mutants weren't sterile?

[NMLevesque]

Acceptable losses, if the improvements are vast.

How so? Also, I wouldn't say they're vast.

He isn't aiming to kill humans. That would be counterproductive.

Anyone who resists is killed. Anyone who submits is sterilized. That is genocide.

Quotes from when he was in severe pain and suffering from an existential crisis. Experiences of depersonalization and derealization can happen to anyone under tremendous stress.

It still indicates he experienced one of those mental illnesses. So, not exactly the picture of mental health. Though, we're also never told that all of these experiences end. The salient point for me however is that he states that his body moves on its own. Losing his sense of agency, followed by delusions (his reasoning is actually quite specious, but he states that he's able to understand complex philosophical questions with ease), and more...

Regarding DID, he didn't fabricate those alternate personalities, they're actual people he has absorbed and assimilated. So, his case is abnormal, to say the least.

Additionally, he doesn't switch between personalities. His personality is consistent. Their voices just echo whatever he's saying, or in some cases, they voice specific statements:

• kindly female = positivity, sentimentality ("Join!", "Hope")
• aggressive male = negativity, passion ("Die!", "Preposterous!")
• robotic = reason and logic ("Proof", "Problem")

In my opinion, his circumstances are too strange for a proper diagnosis.

I'm not certain that we know those are other people, but it's irrelevant. He calls himself 'the Master' but presents with multiple personalities. It isn't Bob, Betty, and Borg.

He's also rather quick to suicide. I forgot to mention that.

Fair enough, though I would still argue "doesn't see people as anything more than fuel" - if the Master were truly so psychopathic, then why would he set about Unity in the first place?

Although, I will say that he doesn't seem to be concerned with individuals. He's concerned with the collective.

*if they don't serve a purpose to him*
I'm assuming the sterilized ones are cult members, and anyone he can't mutate he kills.

 

[CT Phipps]

I find the Master's methods far more insane than the Enclave.

The Enclave would wipe out all non-Enclave life.

The Master would wipe out all non-Super Mutant life.

However, the Enclave at least has proven humanity.

But if the Master can't be persuaded, I remind people there's a nuclear bomb under the cathedral already. The VD would have just killed the Master a more traditional way and that would have been the end of it.

 

[naossano]

I find the Master's methods far more insane than the Enclave.

The Enclave would wipe out all non-Enclave life.

The Master would wipe out all non-Super Mutant life.

However, the Enclave at least has proven humanity.

But if the Master can't be persuaded, I remind people there's a nuclear bomb under the cathedral already. The VD would have just killed the Master a more traditional way and that would have been the end of it.

The master want people to evolve into higher being (with high lethal risks)
The Enclave want people to evolve into a pile of dust (with 100% lethal risks)

 

[CT Phipps]

The master want people to evolve into higher being (with high lethal risks)
The Enclave want people to evolve into a pile of dust (with 100% lethal risks)

The people they evolve lose their personalities, their identities, and their memories then are used to kill their families or friends.

The Enclave just kills them.

I know which I prefer.

 

[naossano]

The people they evolve lose their personalities, their identities, and their memories then are used to kill their families or friends.
.

That is not the GOAL of their evolution.

 

[NMLevesque]

The Master assumes Super Mutants are able to reproduce, making up for the low success rate, eventually.
In other words, the payoff is enough to justify the losses - from the Master's POV.

Not really what I was getting at. Most end up with brain damage. Most suffer severe memory loss. The rest haven't shown themselves to be superior members of society. They're just less likely to die from certain things. It's not like their communities are utopic or anything.

I think it's more complex than that. If: A) he outright killed everyone who refused, B) acted out of a desire to exterminate humanity - I'd consider it genocide.

There really isn't any definition of genocide that doesn't include killing everyone that you don't sterilize. Geno- means race, kind, tribe, or clan, all of which would be wiped out by the Unity. Supermutants also aren't the same species, so we can add homo sapiens sapiens to the Master's eradication list.

A temporary experience of depersonalization doesn't necessarily mean one is afflicted with or has experienced depersonalization disorder. It's sustained over a lifetime. And we don't have that much info.

We don't know how long it lasted. I'm also unfamiliar with the time threshold for diagnosis of this disorder.

So, he is mentally unstable. In my book, this doesn't equate to having a personality disorder, or being afflicted with insanity. I still hold to my earlier conclusion.

Insanity is not a medical term anymore. Being mentally unstable is the same as 'not exactly being the picture of mental health'. Which was my original contention. I suppose my argument for a specific disorder is not as strong.

Specious how?
He doubts reality, but that doesn't seem an irrational response to his circumstances.

His reasoning for wiping out humanity is that 'normals caused the war'. So he sees that humans were almost wiped out, and decides to wipe them out to stop...them from? something? It's more than just specious. It's downright disjointed.

I'm not interested in arguing you inasmuch as I am curious about your POV.

I mostly just thought it was an interesting theory that could tie several observations together, i.e the Master's cult, mental health concerns, and psychic influence on the Unity; the unwell pskyer's in the LA vault, and the nightkin schizophrenia. It seems plausible, and would explain quite a lot. I suppose if nightstalkers turn out to not have schizophrenia then that would be a testable prediction, insofar as the experiment outcome could get a canon decision...in some shining future where Bethesda sells the rights off or something.

 

[CT Phipps]

That is not the GOAL of their evolution.

GOAAAAALLLLLL

Yes, the goal is to "give birth to the Master Race."

 

[Big No]

I assume this has been pointed out before, but wouldn't the Master's "vision of the future" be flawed even if all the mutants were physically the same? There would inevitably be a war between intelligent mutants and dumb mutants at some point due to one reason or another.

 

[naossano]

Dumb super-mutants are flaws that need to be corrected.

Short version is. If the super-mutants weren't (insert a long list of all the current flaws of the super-mutant recipe), would you consider the unity, as a concept or as the ultimate perfect version of the execution of that concept as appealing ?

Basically, would you consider some hive-mind-ish society, with less individual traits, if that also remove problems like wars, oligarchy, capitalism, racism, narcissism, etc... ?

I think an argument can be made both agains't and in favor of the perfect unity. The argument would be more in favor of the perfect unity in the context of Fallout 1, which isn't the same world as our world.

But that is for the perfect unity.
The actual execution of the concept has much more flaws that just sterility.
And the suicide of the Master is more or less related to the realization that the gap is so huge between the concept and its execution.

 

[Big No]

How do you figure that?
Dumb mutants would have severe difficulties organizing themselves, if the thought of war ever even occurred to them to begin with.

I figure it since even though they're dumb, they're not mindless. Like what was said above, the more intelligent ones want to perfect creation of mutants. The currently existing dumb ones would question what's wrong with the way they are and the smart ones would essentially claim superiority due to higher understanding. We see this all the time IRL when someone claims the high ground simply because they went to Harvard or something. If not war then certainly there'd be some infighting here and there, smart mutants annoyed by dumb mutants reproducing (if they could've) and possibly creating more dumb ones.

 

[NMLevesque]

Is that canonically true? Super Mutants are humans, in my view. So are ghouls. They're both just mutated humans.

Anything in the genus homo is human. That includes many extinct species including neanderthals. As far as I understand it, there is no outgrowing a taxon. So they would be human, but not homo sapiens sapiens as they're different enough to be their own species. Not sure how they would be classed beyond that though, what with the FEV junking things up. I mean, I think species are supposed to be able to breed...so I guess it's kinda messy, but from the context of genocide a humanity would be wiped out.

It's paternalism. He sees normals as incompetent and irresponsible, like children. Thus, war is inevitable. The Master steps in preemptively. They're not being wiped out, rather, transformed. Uplifted, in theory.

Transformed is one way of putting it, but that wouldn't change the fact that he's going to erase their kinds, creeds, and cultures, etc. So that they 'survive' in some sense doesn't mean that the Master isn't wiping out an entire people.

Memory and personality retention wouldn't change this, but that loss means that it's not even clear whether anyone is really surviving. That's a philosophical rabbit hole for sure, possibly via Theseus' ship. Which admittedly didn't incorporate mutation (of design/body plan).

But it removes all complexity. It explains, and safely relegates him to the Other. Additionally, I feel it weakens his impact.

A truly disturbing antagonist is one whose motives actually make sense. In other words, they have credibility. Psychosis diminishes credibility.
Not trying to say that this is the only way for an antagonist to be good, however.

Basically: I prefer to apprehend the Master as a mostly-sane individual. I think he has greater impact that way.

To me it only adds to his character, by offering an explanation for what was otherwise a set of unconnected dots. And flaws are fascinating. They create personal struggles, which are a form of conflict, that is itself the driver of narrative. Flaws are also relatable. If anything, I see it as helping him make sense as a character. Whereas, either way, his plan doesn't make much sense. Which itself still comes down to merit, because mental illness (if applicable) would not mean we can simply disregard the view or plan.

 

[Charwo]

I absolutely agree with everything the master says. Peace can only be had if every human is one race, one goal, one government. However, the process of this leads to the Great War. Nuclear War is not about resources, using nuclear weapons on population centers is an act of genocide, and in the end, the Chinese leadership found the very existence of the Americans intolerable (because they had lost).

I don't see the Master as any different. I think he like Chairman Cheng and Adolf Hitler, would destroy the world rather than allow his vision to be compromised. In this way, he is not better than the Enclave.
Let's get beyond the instant no-sells of semi-hive mind via psychic indoctrination and the loss of memory. Becoming a supermutant DEFORMING, especially with me as a female.

So no. Not my color. If the FEV caused supermutant women to come out looking like so:
https://pre00.deviantart.net/2404/th/pre/i/2014/042/a/f/amazon_by_elee0228-d758vs3.jpg
(and well that isn't the only hair color, there are others)

Then the first generation being mentally retarded by and large, it would still be worth it in the end. Except for that whole psychic intrustion, and that is just plain unacceptable. So Maybe you could get me to take the plunge If I came out Amazonian AND fertile AND after the Master himself is dead and my head is still my santuary.

The very problem is that Master'sPlan CANNOT work in a world where humans have evolved with Darwinian pressures. Because humans are animals, this means social Darwinism of the Hitler type (divorced from any notion of racial supremacy) is abjectly correct. We are apex predators, we prey on each other, and genociding our neighbors so they can't even think of preying on us because they're all dead, is what humans are SUPPOSED TO DO. This deep-seated and justified and correct xenophobia means with advents in transportation since the 1500s we have two outcomes: we spread out in space and establish colonies so far from each other they have no contact with each other, and therefore cannot feel threatened or we nuke society back to the point where large-scale migration and invasion are impossible.

I want FEV for the only thing it can realistically do: Krogan up the speices and improve the life of the individual. The fact that war never changes is not a design flaw, it is humans WORKING AS DESIGNED.

 

[naossano]

I don't think we played the same game...

 

[Charwo]

He doesn't do that, though.

"I... don't think that I can continue. Continue? To have done the things I have done in the name of progress and healing. It was madness. I can see that now. Madness. Madness? There is no hope. Leave now, leave while you still have hope..."

You're not getting what I'm talking about. Yeah, he commits suicide because the plan mechanically can't work. What I'm saying, hypothetically, if it could work and the mutants weren't sterile and it was 80 years later and the Enclave come in and defeat him, then he'd let the nukes fly and burn down everything, even inviting in MAD because the vision is more important than the people. That's why you can't talk him down on moral grounds: the vision is more important than the people and most importantly, the vision is more important than outsiders who are not involved in the conflict.

This issue is that the Master, in my estimation, is not willing to accept defeat and submission, and by extension slavery and extermination to preserve human society. The very problem with humanity in a world where MAD has failed is that humans have proven they would rather render humanity extinct than face their own end. Humanity as a whole matter less than the tribe and power of the tribe. And the Mutants are as guilty of this as any human. And that means the Master's Plan doesn't even try to solve the basic problem

But let's consider the most distasteful scenario and what it means to really ensure the survival of human society. The Arabs and the Israelis are at war, and the Arabs are winning and they as in the Six Day War are openly genocidal in intent towards the Israelis. To preserve society in the Middle East, the Jews of Israel must fully submit to being raped and murdered out of existence by their enemies in order that human civilization and human life continue in the Middle East. If they don't, they initate the Sampson Option and nuke the region uninhabitable.

The very flaw of humanity that makes MAD ineffective is that we do not believe that might makes right when it comes to our enemies, nor do we care enough about humanity as a whole to suffer total defeat (and defeat is always and only on the victor's terms). But then again, in that light, it doesn't seem like a flaw. It seems like a survival instinct.

But it illustrates the important point: the problem isn't that humans are warlike, the problem isn't that humans will gladly burn down the world to avenge their power, their populations, their ego. The problem is WMDs allow the defeated to destroy the world, it gives them the option no living organism would turn down. The only solution to MAD is House's solution: you shoot down the missiles or civilization dies

 

[a721402]

I have the feeling someone mistake his head canon for actual canon now.

 

[NMLevesque]

Did someone just try to argue that genocide is the purpose of humanity or something?

 

[SiriusShenanigans]

You can argue that war is human nature as it is humanity's way of reconciling with law to better acclimate to justice. Its why in hobbes, humans fear the state of nature, yet return to it when needs aren't being met.

 

[Charwo]

You can argue that war is human nature as it is humanity's way of reconciling with law to better acclimate to justice. Its why in hobbes, humans fear the state of nature, yet return to it when needs aren't being met.

I'm arguing a bit more than that. I think human beings, if only dark tetrad personalities are opportunistic predators and fundamentally need others to fear and exploit and look down on and spit upon. I think humans have noble instincts too, but fundamentally evil people are gonna fuck it up for everyone.

Unity (or The Unity in the Master's case) doesn't solve the basic problem that humans are bastards. Now peace COULD be maintained as long as the Master is alive but frankly, that goes for most despots. Hell even Nero, who was.....a lackluster ruler, kept Rome from Civil Discord as long he kept breathing.

FEV is a means of bettering the species, but you can't make people morally better with genetic engineering. You can only make humanity better in the sense that you "Korgan up" the species. And if you can Korgan up the species without deforming it, why the hell not?

 

[NMLevesque]

I'm arguing a bit more than that. I think human beings, if only dark tetrad personalities are opportunistic predators and fundamentally need others to fear and exploit and look down on and spit upon.

We're prosocial, gregarious, omnivores actually. Our capacity for empathy and collectivism is the only reason we created civilization. Also, the major trend of human history has been the improvement of living standards, quality of life, etc.

 

[Charwo]

We're prosocial, gregarious, omnivores actually. Our capacity for empathy and collectivism is the only reason we created civilization. Also, the major trend of human history has been the improvement of living standards, quality of life, etc.

Prosocial to KIN and ONLY to kin. Slavery is immensely profitable, even when you pay them 20 cents an hour and install suicide nets to keep the production units alive. Humans are bastards, mostly because we don't owe any moral obligations to outsiders, successful civilization look like the Romans, the Spaniards, the Mongols and yes, the Nazis. We live in that happy universe where Hitler was a spaz and Gobechev allowed perestroika. Neither the Chinese nor the North Koreans will ever make that mistake.

And that's not even getting to the point that not every leader is a rational actor. If Hitler had second strike nuclear capacity the entire civilized world would have gone up in flames in April 1945. And what happens when we inevitably fight the next Hitler, the next Pol Pot, the next Mao who's some toxic combination of utterly sociopathic and meglomanical? We either submit, or we win and right as we close in on the sumbitch in his bunker, the nukes go flying, just to take us with him.

As evil as the Enclave is (and it's hideously evil) it didn't matter if they had been boy scouts and faith healing saints. Chairman Cheng gambled, fought and lost then nuked the world to spite the Americans, to salve his own ego. A rational leader would have surrendered with Bejing under siege and the Yangtze occupied and the world would have continued.

Even if you don't think humans, in general, are utterly amoral self-serving bastards, you can't deny the power of truly pathological personalities to fuck up everything for everyone. Without Stalin and Hitler, World War II is unthinkable. Even taking out Hitler or having Mussolini leading Germany and Hitler Italy makes war highly unlikely. WWI was a structural problem, security logic gone amuck. WW2 was because some of the evilest men in history wanted the whole pie.

The thing that keeps this from happening again? The US Navy. Not the UN, not any fear of MAD (which will not stop the pathological), not mutual economic integration (which didn't stop WWI). American hyperpower forces everyone to bend the knee or be strangled by naval blockade and pulverized by the first and second most powerful air forces on the planet. The international stage has no benevolent influences, only naked self interest. Luckily no one believes in anything except putting money in their pockets, but that won't last.